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January 19, 2016

Scholarship vs. Prestige: When to Take the Money and Run

Update! We have two podcasts around this article: Episode 5 and Episode 53 of the PowerScore LSAT PodCast.

I wrote a blog titled, A Law Degree Is Worth over $1 Million. Can You Get It for Free? Predictably, we received several questions from former students who have the opportunity to attend law school on a full-ride scholarship. If you think their decision is a no-brainer, think again. Oftentimes, the choice is between attending a higher-ranked school at sticker price vs. a lower-ranked school for free or discounted. Before you get jealous, realize that these students found themselves in this enviable position because they worked hard for it. They excelled in college, on their applications, and perhaps most importantly—on their LSAT scores.

The Choice

For some, the decision is brutally simple. You’ll go to the highest-ranked law school you can get into, regardless of cost. There’s nothing wrong with that per se, assuming you aren’t motivated by prestige alone (you can’t eat prestige). If your goal is to work at a big law firm, clerk for a feeder judge, enter academia, or do public interest for the DOJ or another highly selective organization, a strong case can be made for choosing a top-14 law school over any lower-ranked school, even with money.

Some law firms are extremely selective in their recruitment practices. If you absolutely must work at Wachtell, you need to go to the right school. Furthermore, if you aren’t sure where you’d like to practice after graduation, a national school makes more sense. As the name implies, such a school will not restrict your employment opportunities to a particular city or region.

Last, but not least, many of the top law schools have generous loan forgiveness programs, which means that you don’t have to sell your soul take a six-figure job in order to repay your student debt. Generally, the better the law school, the better the loan forgiveness program (though you should still read the fine print). Of course, having no debt still beats having to deal with a loan repayment program.

In Terms of Grades…

From a purely economic perspective, the cost of attending a top law school is what you pay to mitigate risk. You only have a 1-in-10 chance of being in the top-10% of your 1L class (it sucks, I know). But, the better the school, the less important that is. Harvard, Yale, and Stanford don’t even have grades. While it is still possible to determine (roughly) where someone stands relative to his or her peers, such distinctions are only meaningful for a minority of law firms and judges.

The average student at Harvard Law can easily get a callback from a BIGLAW firm in NYC. To be competitive for the same job coming out of Cornell, our hypothetical 1L should ideally have above-median grades.  If he or she is a 1L at Fordham, top-30% seems to be the magic number. Broadly speaking, the further down the law school pecking order you get, the better your grades need to be in order to provide you with the same caliber of employment opportunities (assuming said opportunities even exist at the lower-tier schools).

Making the Decision

So, when does it make sense to take the money and run? It’s a deeply personal decision that depends on several factors. How risk-averse are you? Where would you like to practice after graduation? What do you want to do with your law degree? What’s your attitude toward debt in general? Among many others.

Rationally speaking, it’s worth taking the money at a lower ranked school when the anticipated benefit of attending such a school outweighs the opportunity cost of not attending it. Let’s say you’re making a choice between Fancy Law School (higher ranked, no money) and Bargain Law School (lower ranked, with money). I’d take the money and run if:

  • Both are national (top-14) law schools.
  • You don’t have a compelling personal reason for attending Fancy Law School, and received one of the following full scholarships at the Bargain school.
    • Levy at Penn Law
    • Dillard at UVA
    • Root-Tilden-Kern at NYU
    • A caveat: if Fancy Law School is either Harvard or Yale and you plan on pursuing an academic career. No amount of money elsewhere can compensate for the lost opportunity should you reject their offer.
  • Fancy Law School is a lower-ranked national school, whereas Bargain Law School is a highly regarded regional school (Fordham, BU, BC, GW, etc.). Take the money and run if:
    • You got a full ride at your Bargain option.
    • You would be happy to practice in the region where the Bargain school is located.
  • Both are top-50 law schools in the same region, Fancy Law School is a highly regarded regional school, whereas Bargain Law School is a slightly lower ranked school offering a scholarship worth at least 50% their annual tuition. Make sure to check the terms and conditions for renewing your scholarship and compare the relative merits of both schools using independent sources, such as:
    • US News Law School Rankings
    • Above The Law
  • Both are top-50 schools but in different regions, and you have no preference for the Fancy Law School region over the Bargain Law School region. However, if the region in which Bargain Law School is located is less desirable than the alternative, then you need to think carefully about whether the trade-off is really worth it, as the Bargain Law School region is likely where you’ll end up practicing after graduation.
  • Many would argue that no school outside the top-50 is worth paying sticker price for. Only go to a Tier-2/3 school if you can do it at a deep discount, ideally for free.

It’s worth emphasizing that this is a personal choice. With that said, take the advice above with a grain of salt. At the very least, it should provide a starting point for your decision-making process.

Asking Questions

We have been asked hundreds of questions about specific law school decisions, and below this post are those questions and our answers. If you would like to ask us about a specific school choice, please provide the following information for each school in the mix:

  • School Name (USNews Ranking) – Scholarship Amount – Total Cost of Attendance
  • Pros/cons of the school in your eyes, any related factors in the decision
  • Your career aspirations

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Posted by Dave Killoran / Law School Admissions / Law School Admissions, Scholarships 188 Comments

  • Todd Steiner
    March 30, 2016 at 7:55pm

    My son has a strong interest in academia law. If he gets accepted to Yale, he will probably accept it (besides its many strong attributes they have a superior loan repayment program). In the mean time he is deliberating between Harvard Law and NYU with a full tuition scholarship coupled with direct mentoring from a NYU law professor (the Vanderbilt scholarship).

    Based on the pool of people he has spoken to, the consensus is leaning towards Harvard and the better choice which is the advice in your article. However, a law professor(from a non-top 20 law school)my son spoke to thought the NYU mentoring arrangement was special and might actually yield him more benefit in pursuing an academia career than attending HLS.

    Would the promise by NYU of individualized counseling change the equation in your analysis?

  • Dave Killoran
    April 03, 2016 at 6:24pm

    Hi Todd,

    Thanks for the question! Nikki will probably reply by tomorrow, but in the meantime I thought I’d add my thoughts. I’ll try to touch on a number of different considerations here, just to give you both some things to think about.

    First, congrats to your son on the offers he’s received thus far–he’s clearly a top-notch candidate!

    Second, there are a few different factors floating around here, one of which is cost. I can’t tell from your post if money/debt is an important consideration but obviously it is for most people. If both Harvard and NYU are offering full rides, that would be a very different picture compared to a situation where NYU is a full ride and Harvard is full cost.

    Third, the scholarship and mentoring is a fabulous opportunity, and one worth thinking about. The nice thing is that his ability to work with a professor under a preset arrangement is fixed in place, and he has a guarantee that he will get that time and attention. However, those relationships can and are formed at every school, albeit in a less formalized arrangement. The question is, does your son have the kind of personality that would seek out and develop such a relationship? If so, then that lowers the importance of what NYU is offering (that said, it’s a great offer from NYU because it’s certain). There’s also a question of who the mentor would be, which can impact the value of the relationship.

    Where you got to law school does have a huge impact on your opportunities within the legal field and academia (Harvard and Yale are the two top-producing schools when it comes to Supreme Court justices, for example). If all else is equal, going to the best “name” school is often call. NYU and Harvard are both top schools, but Harvard has the edge in name recognition and prestige.

    One overlooked aspect of this decision is which school does he think he would enjoy the most? This is important because law school is tough, and the more you enjoy your environment, the better you tend to perform. And for academic positions, his grades will be a huge deal. So, he needs to be in the best possible environment for him to succeed.

    I realize that’s not a definitive answer, but I don’t think we have enough info about your son to make a call (nor should we–this has to be his decision).

    Please let me know if this helps, and again, congratulations–this is the kind of choice everyone would love to have!

  • Nicolay Siclunov
    April 05, 2016 at 4:22pm

    Hi Todd,

    I completely agree with Dave here (congrats to your son, btw – he has the most enviable of choices to make!)

    Regarding NYU with full scholarship vs. Harvard, there are two main issues here:

    1. How certain is your son that he wants to pursue an academic career? If he’s dead set on it, then Harvard and Yale probably do win, with or without money at other top-10 law schools. You need to realize, however, that such a decision is really difficult to make before even stepping foot in law school. What if he changes his mind and decides to do corporate law? Or get into politics with the hopes of becoming a judge? Or join the Justice Department? Or become a public defender? Or federal prosecutor? The list goes on… I’m not saying that Harvard will be ill-suited for such pursuits (quite on the contrary); however, NYU will arguably be just as good of a choice, one that will save him the equivalent of a downpayment on a mortgage. Furthermore, while there are indeed more HLS alums as Supreme Court clerks, professors, and SCOTUS justices, these statistics don’t confirm that HLS is vastly superior to NYU in preparing its students to join these elite ranks. You are looking at a self-selected sample: what if HLS students are merely more likely to compete for such positions in the first place? There is also an outcome bias here, judging a decision based on the outcome alone. If he’s a student at or near the top of his class at NYU, with stellar mentoring and no debt, there will be nothing – NOTHING – to stop him from pursuing whatever career he wants – even in academia or the judiciary. The first step will be securing a federal clerkship with a feeder judge, something a top NYU Law student is just as likely to secure as a HLS student.

    2. Is cost a considerable factor here? If your son plans to borrow money to attend Harvard or Yale, even with their excellent loan forgiveness programs, the debt will be a burden that may shape the future decisions he makes. Having no debt will give him a lot more freedom than even the best loan forgiveness program in the world. Of course, if cost is not a factor – i.e. he or you will be paying for his education out of pocket – then by all means, let him go to Harvard! 🙂 The name has a nice ring to it, and it’s a wonderful place to spend 3 years. (I went there, I know :-). Needless to say, your son needs to visit both schools and get a feel for each.

    One decision may be wiser than the other, but there is no “wrong” choice here. Let us know what you guys decide to do!

  • Todd Steiner
    April 21, 2016 at 3:41pm

    Dear Dave and Nikki,

    I just returned from traveling abroad and saw your replies. Thank you. Your points are spot on.

    My son has not yet made a decision, but he must do so any day now.

    The following sets forth additional information:

    –Money/debt is an important factor.
    –He is pretty dead set on in pursuing an academic career, but we recognize the ultra competiveness of this field.
    –He does have the personality that would seek out and develop relationships with key professors.
    –Nevertheless, the NYU mentor has a good reputation and my son spoke with him and liked him.
    –He visited both Harvard and NYU. He came away with the positive feeling that he would enjoy Harvard more. He found the classes he attended at Harvard and its overall environment much more stimulating than at NYU and more in-line with his personality.
    –He is not intimated by NYU’s grading system but he does prefer the Yale and Harvard approach to grading and we assume does lower some risk. After all, at NYU he would have to be at the top of the class to achieve certain goals in setting up an academic career.
    –Assuming he was successful in a pursuit of an academic career we roughly estimate that under HLS’s repayment program about 45% of the total debt would be covered. The remaining 65% of course is a lot of money. However, he wouldn’t be completely debt-free at NYU since the scholarship covers only the tuition. I figure the difference of debt repayments (including interest) over 10 years is about $165k.
    –He is still waiting and hoping to hear something positive from Yale.

    Based on the above, please let me know if you have any updated take on this situation.

    Also, could you expand on why you think HLS may provide the better opportunity for a successful pursuit of an academic career? Could it also assist in ultimately landing a more prestigious position than NYU Law (which could offset the investment cost)?

    Thanks again for your interest,
    Todd

  • Sabrina Heck
    May 14, 2016 at 1:20pm

    Hi! I am currently trying to decide between attending a top 50 law school with no scholarship or a lower ranked (but not by much) law school with a large scholarship amount. The top 50 school is UNC Chapel Hill and the top 100 school is Villanova. I am currently out of state for UNC but will be able to get in state residency by next year. I’m not totally sure what field of law I would like to practice but I am leaning towards Healthcare law. I haven’t had to take out any student loans for my undergraduate career and with the scholarship given to me by Villanova and the money I have in savings(I’ve worked 3 jobs at the same time throughout undergrad) if I attend there the loan I would need to take out would be minimal, but if I go to UNC I will have to take out a much heftier loan and risk exiting law school almost a quarter million in debt. I’m leaning towards Villanova because of its location to Philly and all the money I would save, but I also know that UNC has a great program.

  • Nicolay Siclunov
    May 14, 2016 at 8:05pm

    Hello Sabrina,

    Thanks for your post! Attending Villanova virtually free is a sweet deal, but you need to keep in mind the following:

    1. Most scholarships are conditional upon achieving a certain GPA year-to-year. Make sure you read the fine print.
    2. Only about 10% of the graduating class from Villanova ends up in a BIGLAW firm, so if that’s the ultimate objective – you need to be top-10% of your class, give-or-take.
    3. Nearly 20% of Villanova students attend tuition-free. Assuming these are among the most qualified students in the entering class, competition for a spot in the top-10% of the class is likely to be keen.

    Check out the following links about Villanova:

    http://abovethelaw.com/schools/villanova-law/?rf=1
    http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/villanova/jobs/2015/
    http://www.philly.com/philly/business/law/20151014_Villanova_law_school_…

    UNC-Chapel Hill is a vastly superior program. Roughly a quarter of the class manages to secure a BIGLAW job, and 5% goes on to pursue federal clerkships. The school has a much stronger reputation nation-wide than Villanova, and places exceptionally well in North Carolina, D.C. and (to a lesser extent) NYC:

    http://abovethelaw.com/schools/university-of-north-carolina-law/
    http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/unc/jobs/2015/

    The question is, is this worth a difference of $250K? Probably not, but it’s a very subjective decision – it depends on your career objectives, location preferences, etc. Both schools are regional, so you need to be comfortable with the idea of working in the Philly area if you go to Villanova. UNC has a broader reach for sure, but keep in mind that 50% of the class remains to practice in North Carolina.

    Have you tried negotiating the amount of scholarship money at UNC-Chapel Hill? Are there any other schools you’re still waiting on?

    As it stands now, I’m leaning slightly towards Villanova, assuming 1) your scholarship is NOT conditional; 2) you’re comfortable practicing at a smaller law firm; and 3) have no problem settling in Philly and the surrounding areas.

    Good luck with your decision!

  • Sabrina
    May 14, 2016 at 10:47pm

    Hi! Thank you so much for your response. I haven’t tried negotiating with UNC, I actually didn’t even know that was something I could do.I’m not waiting on any other schools, I’ve narrowed it down to these two. I have family and ties in both areas so I am okay with living in either region. I do know that my scholarship to Villanova is not conditional. I haven’t fully decided which field of law I would like to practice, but I think I am leaning towards either Healthcare law or a federal clerkship. How would one go about negotiating?

  • Nicolay Siclunov
    May 14, 2016 at 11:07pm

    Hi Sabrina,

    Schools are typically willing to negotiate the amount of aid they offer, especially if a comparable school has offered you significantly more money. Unfortunately, Villanova and UNC are not exactly in the same tier, which would make it difficult to leverage your aid at Villanova. Still, it’s worth a shot: simply email the Dean of Admissions and/or Financial Aid at UNC, thank them for admitting you into their class, and say you’re reaching out to discuss the amount of aid they are offering. Say you’ve received a generous aid from Villanova (and any other school ranked similarly to UNC), and ask if there is any opportunity for you to receive a comparable financial aid package. It’s important to emphasize that UNC is your top choice, and financial considerations are the only thing standing in the way of sending in your deposit.

    On a side note, no one expects you to know what area of specialization you’d like to focus on after graduation. Law schools differ in this regard way less than most people suspect: the curriculum is virtually standardized for the first year anyway. Also, a federal judicial clerkship is not a field of law, so the choice you’ve described is moot. A clerkship is one of the most coveted professional experiences you can have right after law school. It usually lasts a year (or two), after which – well, you can pretty much write your own ticket to a law firm of your choice 🙂

    Good luck with your decision!!

  • Beth Albright
    August 02, 2016 at 2:00pm

    Hi, My son has two nice scholarship offers. One is from Indiana for 90,000. One is from Washingnton University in St. Louis for 70,000. We have visited both and he is wrestling hard over the decision. WashU is a career placement machine, starting from day one to find those prestigious internships, federal clerkships etc. They also have a huge national reach. Indian is a warmer program with a strong regional reach. Does the money in this case make much difference? What do you think is the best choice?

    Beth

  • Nicolay Siclunov
    August 02, 2016 at 2:20pm

    Dear Beth,

    Thanks for your question, and congrats on your son’s scholarship offers! To answer your question, Wash U is the better school. It’s not even close. By all accounts – job placement, academics, prestige, bar passage rate, clerkships, etc. – Wash U wins hands down. The only advantage to attending Indiana is the slightly lower cost of tuition. But, is $20K really worth the step-down? Not in my book. This is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.

    I’d only consider Indiana if 1) I actually wanted to practice in Indiana or Illinois, and nowhere else; 2) got in-state tuition, which is considerably lower than out-of-state; and 3) really disliked Wash U when visiting. Unless all three of these conditions are met, I see no reason to even consider Indiana as a possible contender.

    Hope this helps a bit! 🙂 Let me know if you have any other question.

  • Beth
    August 04, 2016 at 2:20am

    Wonderful!! This is exactly what I wanted to know. He paid his deposit and he will be in the 150th entering class of Washington University Law! I so appreciate your help!

    ~Many thanks!

    Beth

  • Nikki
    December 09, 2016 at 4:55am

    Hi guys! I am agonizing over this decision and need some input from someone KNOWLEDGEABLE and who knows the state of TODAY’S legal market. I cannot read anymore blogs(especially those from 2010)/get opinions from people who don’t know the market! I plan on living and working in NYC. I’m from Long Island so I may move out to the ‘burbs again later on but not while in school/shortly thereafter. Ive received decisions from Fordham and Cardozo. Sticker and Fordham, 100% tuition unconditional at Cardozo. I would love to do biglaw, for the money obviously, but I am completely aware that this is in no way a guarantee, especially with the Columbia/NYU competition. Mostly, I want to be successful and make as much money as possible. I am an older-generation student (I’ll be entering at 30) and have worked as a paralegal and taken legal courses to gain a paralegal certificate. I am researching how to study and think(hope) I have a grip on what lies ahead. I am hoping this will translate into a competitive advantage against my younger peers-but again I know anything goes. One bad final and I’m screwed. Anyway, I was hoping to get some input on my choices outlined above. $300k (I’m including NYC COL) for Fordam with more prestige/better employment prospects/potential higher salary? Or free ride with $90k debt (COL only) at Cardozo and hustle for a job with a (very) likely lower salary? Thanks so much for taking the time.

  • Cody
    January 05, 2017 at 4:49pm

    Hi Team,

    First off, thanks for publishing an up-to-date and thoughtful article on this topic. While it’s a blessing to be in the kind of position described here, it’s certainly stress inducing as well.

    I’m currently weighing two different scholarship offers:
    1. Unconditional full-tuition and fees to the University of Houston Law Center (UH)
    2. $20k per year offer from the University of Texas Law School (UT)

    I am a long-time Texas resident and likely will want to stay in Texas after graduation. I have an undergrad degree in Electrical Engineering and have been working as an engineer for several years. I think I am interested in intellectual property law, but am drawn to studying law partially because there are so many opportunities to study different topics. Overall not 100% sure what area I’d like to practice in long-term.

    A few more things I am considering:
    – UT is a top 15 law school nationally; UH is top 50.
    – UT sends nearly 10x as many graduates to clerkships as any other school in Texas, including UH. I’m not sure I’ll want to pursue a clerkship, but it is certainly a nice option.
    – Cost of living in Houston is significantly less than in Austin.
    – Without taking any loans for cost of living (my wife’s salary will hopefully allow that), I would graduate UT Law with ~$45k in debt. That doesn’t seem like much relative to what many others end up with from law school, but feels like a ton relative to going for free at UH.
    – For IP Law in particular, UH is typically ranked in the top 10

    I’d be delighted to hear your thoughts on the situation!

    Thanks in advance,
    Cody

  • Nikki
    January 05, 2017 at 5:24pm

    Hi it’s Nikki. I have an update on the above. I was awarded 30k per year at Fordham. I’m leaning towards Fordham but the debt still scares me. I was just wondering if you had and thoughts or input. Thanks so much!

  • Dave Killoran
    January 05, 2017 at 5:57pm

    Hey Cody,

    Thanks for the question! This is a tough one. I’m generally quite anti-debt, but there are times when it’s reasonable to take some debt on. This might be one of those times, so let’s look at some factors:

    I’m a Houston fan. I think the law school is up-and-coming, and the overall school profile is growing nationally (the recent success of the football team cannot be discounted in that; anything that gets the school name in front of more people is a good thing).

    2. Relatively speaking though, UT is simply the bigger, more recognized name, and it has national presence. Houston only has regional presence. That is, however, offset by your desire to stay in Texas after graduation.

    3. When it comes to specific specialties, I don’t give those much weight. First, most employers don’t really think about them. employers hire on school name and class rank/grades, and not so much on which school are the best at environmental law. Second, as you readily admitted, your interests are far from certain, and can and likely will change once you get into school. So, using the IP ranking as a factor here doesn’t seem like a good idea. In the same way, the relative clerkship success at UT also doesn’t influence me, although it is in fact a reflection of the definably higher prestige associated with attending Texas. There no way of knowing if you’ll want to go the clerkship route, although one can say that going to Texas preserves that option whereas going to UH lessens it.

    4. The free ride at UH is pretty attractive 🙂 I mean, zero debt more or less speaks for itself, and its why this is a debate at all. On the other hand, the Texas debt is at least manageable. If you can come out under $50K for a T15 law school education, that’s pretty solid. with your EE background, you’d probably be in better shape than the average grad, something that I also factor into the equation.

    So, all that said, this is a classic “higher prestige with debt” vs “lower rank but free” argument. If it was me, I’d probably lean very slightly towards UT, but I don’t think there’s a wrong answer here, and that’s the good news: you either come out of this with a free law school education (which I find wildly attractive) or a top-level degree and low-level debt. All in all, you’re the real winner here 🙂

    Please let me know if this helps. Thanks, and definitely keep me posted on what you decide!

  • Dave Killoran
    January 05, 2017 at 6:12pm

    Hey Nikki,

    I’m so sorry I missed your first post! I respond to everything I see, so if you somehow don’t get a response from me, always repost (especially on posts like this, which I didn’t write; it may take a time or two)!!

    Ok, let’s run this down one more time. the choices are:

    Fordham, which results in $210K debt after the $30K per year is applied

    OR

    Cardozo, which results in $90K debt total

    Do I have that right? And, are there any other schools still in play at this point? If I have all the facts right, then I’ll add some thoughts.

    Thanks!

  • Rebecca
    January 22, 2017 at 11:06pm

    Hello,
    Do you regard Penn Law, Duke, or UVA law worth giving up a full ride and paying sticker price for national recognition and job prospect wise? Even if the full ride was at a top 50 school such as Florida State law or UF law?

    I’d love to know your thoughts as they aren’t HYS, but still T14 schools?

  • Nikki
    January 23, 2017 at 4:07am

    Hi Dave! I missed your post back to me! We are batting 1000 here! You are correct in the above, except I did a little negotiating and got 5k more per year at Fordham. That was the most they are willing to give. I would SO appreciate your thoughts. I have full ride to st John’s and 90% tuition at Brooklyn, but the two main contenders are Fordham and Cardozo. Thanks so much again.

  • Dave Killoran
    January 24, 2017 at 1:16am

    Hi Rebecca,

    This is a very tough question that no one can really answer for you 🙂 So many factors go into this that are personal that honestly you are the only person who can say how you value certain elements and what you want from a law school. I can tell you that a big part of this equation is where will you do the best? Your first year grades will have a huge impact and so you need to be as comfortable and happy as possible.

    For me, I strongly tend towards debt avoidance, and so if you are going to pay sticker price vs a T50 full ride, then you should have some very good reasons for doing so. It’s very hard to beat a debt-free education, and even a big name doesn’t automatically pay the bills. So, weigh all the competing factors and your needs very carefully. Each person will arrive at a different answer, but you need to be as comfortable as possible with the decision you make.

    Good luck!

  • Ryan
    January 26, 2017 at 5:54am

    Nikki,
    My gf is in almost the exact same situation. She has full rides to several schools but at this point is only considering St. John’s, North Eastern, and Villanova. She also has 80% at GMU and 25k a year at Fordham. She is AGONIZING over the best school to choose. She would like to practice BigLaw, but is wondering if the 60k total in loans is worth it for Fordham when she can go to St. John’s or Nova on full rides…

  • Ryan
    January 26, 2017 at 5:06pm

    Nikki,

    How did you go about asking for more money at Fordham? Did u cite specific schools as leverage?

  • Nikki
    January 26, 2017 at 8:26pm

    Hi Ryan! I know this is so so so hard. That’s exactly what I did!

  • Ryan
    January 26, 2017 at 8:55pm

    Nikki,

    Which schools in particular if u dont mind me asking?

  • Nikki
    January 26, 2017 at 9:12pm

    I don’t mind…St. John’s and Cardozo

  • Dave Killoran
    January 30, 2017 at 10:59pm

    Hey Nikki,

    Ok, so the latest situation is:

    Fordham, which results in $195K debt after the $35K per year is applied

    OR

    Cardozo, which results in $90K debt total

    In other words, about $100K more in total debt to attend Fordham. Oh boy, this is not easy at all! Law is often a rankings game, and Fordham comes in at #37 whereas Cardozo is #74. Knowing that you want Biglaw in NYC, obviously Fordham has the edge (and it’s a fairly big edge as Cardozo doesn’t produce many biglaw associates. See https://www.lstreports.com/schools/cardozo/ and https://www.lstreports.com/schools/fordham. Plus, here’s an anecdotal example supporting the same conclusion: http://abovethelaw.com/2016/09/the-best-and-worst-new-york-law-schools-f…). But, the debt worries me a lot, and I know it worries you too, especially given your age. I’m also concerned about how Biglaw firms will view you as a 33 year associate–you may encounter some hesitation on their part (I’ve heard of such in the past). Then again, your paralegal background can help offset that and would ease the concerns of a law firm, especially on the theory that you’d acclimate even faster and be more efficient. It literally is impossible to call here so I’m going to make a unusual suggestion that may or may not work. I think you should call the hiring office of a biglaw firm or two and see if you can’t find someone who will give you advice here. Explain your situation in a very brief, concise nutshell (don’t go more than 30 seconds) and ask if they have any thoughts. It’s a longshot, but if you could find one person who could almost serve as a “5-minute mentor,” it might set you at ease about your chances and your decision.

    I personally fear the debt we are talking about here, because $195K is nothing to sneeze at. But, neither is $90K, so you already know you’re going down that path to some extent, it’s just a matter now of how far. Is the better ranking worth the extra $100k? It might be but only if you do well (and I can see that you know that by the comment you made about one bad final). It comes down to your commitment to Biglaw, because for that Fordham is the way to go. But I don’t think the extra money is really worth the extra boost because once you have that debt, you’re stuck with it.

    So, I suppose I’d go with the lower debt, but I understand why this is difficult. That lower debt comes with lower opportunity. Either way, you will need top grades but you’ll have to be top 5-8% to pull a Biglaw job. That is a lot of pressure 🙁

    I wish I could do more here, but there isn’t a “best” answer, just what is best for you. Thanks!

  • Nikki
    February 01, 2017 at 1:27am

    Thank you SO much for taking the time Dave, I really appreciate and will let you know how my calls go!

  • Ryan
    February 01, 2017 at 5:46pm

    Yea Dave this is a hard one. My gf would o ot have to pay about $500 a year for parking and what not at St. John’s or like 70k in loans for Fordham… it’s deff a difficult decision. It’s funny you suggested calling a firm bc I know someone who gave the same advice… after looking at this article I am leaning St. John’s beacause of the cost and my belief that she can finish near the top. One of my best friends is an even L2 #2 in his class at St John’s. he will be an additional awesome resource… http://abovethelaw.com/2016/09/the-best-and-worst-new-york-law-schools-f… Yes Fordham has way more “Big Law” lawyers but their class size is much bigger… Take the money and run? After visiting Fordham and saint johns, I would say she is more comfortable at St. John’s. Fordham has this colder, we’re a good school, fend for urself approach… We shall see… Villanova has been nothing short of great and personable in the pre selection process so they’re making it difficult as well…

  • Josie
    February 12, 2017 at 12:18am

    Hi Nikki, hope this isn’t too much of a dumb question…you mentioned Cardozo’s offer was a full ride and still 90K in debt (over the 3 years), What exactly does that 90K include? Housing, books, etc..I am just wondering why one would still have 30k a year in debt, without having to pay any tuition? I too will be applying to Cardozo, Fordham, and Villanova and leaning towards Villanova (free ride tuition scholarship) and because the cost of living in PA near villanova is much less then rents/cost of living in the NYC. Ideally my preference though would be to live and go to school in nyc, however the debt I would incur with only partial tuition scholarships, (although a free ride cardozo and unsure about $ fordham will offer) and the cost of living would put me way up there in debt than if i were to choose villanova and lived and worked in PA(philly area). Any insight would be much appreciated!! If it’s not too much trouble, advise me on the remaining debt for both cardozo and fordham (90k vs. approx. 300k)? Thank you! Josie

  • Josie
    February 12, 2017 at 12:19am

    Hi Nikki, hope this isn’t too much of a dumb question…you mentioned Cardozo’s offer was a full ride and still 90K in debt (over the 3 years), What exactly does that 90K include? Housing, books, etc..I am just wondering why one would still have 30k a year in debt, without having to pay any tuition? I too will be applying to Cardozo, Fordham, and Villanova and leaning towards Villanova (free ride tuition scholarship) and because the cost of living in PA near villanova is much less then rents/cost of living in the NYC. Ideally my preference though would be to live and go to school in nyc, however the debt I would incur with only partial tuition scholarships, (although a free ride cardozo and unsure about $ fordham will offer) and the cost of living would put me way up there in debt than if i were to choose villanova and lived and worked in PA(philly area). Any insight would be much appreciated!! If it’s not too much trouble, advise me on the remaining debt for both cardozo and fordham (90k vs. approx. 300k)? Thank you! Josie

  • Nikki
    February 12, 2017 at 2:59am

    Hi Josie!

    Not silly at all! See this link – Cardozo’s non-tuition cost of attendance is $27,414. I round up to $30 because its easy (hence why I’m not going for a more math-based career). http://www.cardozo.yu.edu/current-students/tuition-and-financial-aid/tui….

    If you have any other questions let me know!

  • Melissa
    March 14, 2017 at 2:06pm

    Hey guys,

    I’ve been working on making a decision but don’t have much to go on career wise because i’m not sure where I want to end up after graduation. I’ve been looking into Cardozo as well but have only been offered $22,000 per year. However, Hofstra offered me a full ride and I was wondering if the full ride would be worth it from a much lesser ranked school?

    Thanks so much.

  • Dave Killoran
    March 14, 2017 at 6:35pm

    Hey Melissa,

    Thanks for the question! I’m personally very debt-averse, and so if one is going to take on debt, I think should be for a good reason (like you are getting a name brand so strong that it will carry you some distance). Cardozo (#65) vs Hofstra (#118) is a classic matchup, and in cases like this, I like to look at LST employment info: https://www.lstreports.com/state/NY. Honestly, for the most recent year, it’s very close, and at a full ride, Hofstra is the better deal. I can’t see a reason to pay for Cardozo–sure, the ranking is better, but it’s not doing a whole lot for their grads in comparison to Hofstra.

    If you are going to take on debt, there should be a great reason for it. I don’t see one here.

    Thanks!

  • Dakota Wild
    March 15, 2017 at 2:57am

    Hi Dave,

    Thanks so much for answering everyone’s questions. I’m currently grappling to decide between Fordham with $135,000 scholarship, and Penn, with no money. It seems that the two are in completely different ranks… It would be really hard for me to turn down a prestigious opportunity like attending Penn for a school without as much name or reach, like Fordham. At the same time, being in debt from attending Penn at sticker could affect the rest of my life. I likely want to work in New York City upon graduation, but I am not NYC or bust. I’d like to consider the option of working for government in DC. What do you think? Am I throwing out an amazing opportunity by attending Fordham instead of Penn? Is there even a discussion between the two schools? I would really love to go to Penn, though I feel that a big part of my interest is the prestige, and I’m not sure that’s a good enough reason.

    Thanks!

  • Nicole
    March 15, 2017 at 5:24am

    Hi all – love the blog! It’s been incredibly helpful.

    I am currently debating between Penn State (Dickinson) and UC Hastings and was hoping I could get your thoughts?

    Hastings has said I could get “up to $10,000” in need-based grants but as of now, I haven’t officially heard anything back. There is a possibility I could commute from my parents’ home (which would save on COL) but I’m not really banking on it. Meanwhile, Penn State (esp. with their 21 spot jump in ranking) has offered me $105,000. Either way, I’d be leaving with debt 🙁 it just depends on how much. I’m originally from the Bay Area and Hastings has a lot going for it regionally. Penn State (though I believe we’re coming up on their 2nd year as a stand-alone) has been doing some great things, but I’m still a little wary.

    Thoughts at all on this?

  • Dave Killoran
    March 15, 2017 at 6:01pm

    Hey Dakota,

    Well, what you have is the classic name vs money decision, which is probably the toughest one in the admissions world. Whereas in some cases I have a strong feeling about what to do, in this one I don’t. So, let’s break it down. First, what’s the exact financial outcome for each. I’ll use the LST Reports:

    https://www.lstreports.com/schools/fordham/ — Non-discounted cost of $307K – $135K scholarship = $172K debt.

    https://www.lstreports.com/schools/penn/ — Non-discounted cost of $320K – $0K scholarship = $320K debt.

    So, a significant difference there. And one, that as you rightly note, could follow you around and affect the rest of your life.

    Now, are the job prospect differences enough to make a difference. Again, back to LST:

    Fordham: Employment score = 66.8% / Under Employment = 17.8%

    Penn: Employment score = 89.8% / Under Employment = 4.9%

    Again, a significant difference, and you can see that while you pay more, your job outcomes are better from Penn (and they better be, for that price!). By the way, pay close attention to the graduate outcomes box in the lower right. Penn has 66.3% grads going into large firms and 10.6% into Federal clerkship jobs (highly coveted). Fordham? 33.7% grads going into large firms and 1.7% into Federal clerkship jobs. In other words, Penn provides a 76% chance of large firm/clerk jobs, whereas Fordham is about 35%. they are, as you say, in very different classes.

    At this point, it’s about what happens with the individual. Because although at Fordham you have less leeway for a bad exam or bad day, when you look at Penn there are still people struggling coming out of that school. Not everyone gets what they want, and there’s problem: if you could guarantee that you are in the positive outcome group, then Penn is a reasonable call, but you can’t guarantee that. And so it comes down to how you feel about all sorts of factors, including the environment at each school, how confident you are in your abilities, and so on.

    I don’t know the best decision here for you, mainly because I don’t know you 🙂 I am generally debt-averse but I understand the pull of Penn here. Do you have any other admittances in the T14 or even T20 that gave you money that you could use to bargain with Penn? For example, maybe Duke gave you $20K a year? If so, use that as leverage and ask Penn for an improved aid package.

    Sorry, there’s no “right” answer here but hopefully this gave you something to think about. Good luck!

  • Dave Killoran
    March 15, 2017 at 6:17pm

    Hey Nicole,

    Great, I’m glad we’re helping! Three things here:

    First, talk to Hastings and get the financials locked down. Be straight up with them and explain that you are making a decision and the money is key (which won’t be a surprise to them :). From there, run the debt calculations for each school, and include everything you can think of, including travel to Pennsylvania, etc. And talk to your parents as well–will you be able to stay there for certain? And will that work for you personally?

    Second, it sounds like you are concerned about the recency of Penn’s two law schools. I wouldn’t be. they’ve made a commitment here, and both schools are doing just fine. This is a school system with serious resources, and I don’t see any cause for concern that they will run into problems. So, on that count at least, I would not be concerned.

    Third, the school choice here is geographically rather stark. This isn’t Philly vs NYC as we saw in another question here, but instead Downtown SF vs Carlisle/Harrisburg. Totally different parts of the country and location experiences. What’s your feeling there, and also, where do you see yourself practicing? I’m a former full-time Bay Area resident and current part-time resident, and obviously this area is amazing (but expensive). If you want to stay in this region, you need to factor that in a bit to the decision.

    Hopefully those are some thoughts that help clarify the situation, but it seems you probably need to get some more information first, especially from Hastings. Please let me know if that helps, and good luck!

  • Mary
    March 16, 2017 at 2:06am

    Hi! I am currently debating between Washington University in St. Louis, Boston College and Notre Dame. To be honest, I’m leaning away from Notre Dame, but it isn’t completely off the market yet, either. Regarding scholarships, I received $35,000 per year at WashU, $26,000 per year at Boston College and $20,000 per year at Notre Dame. I know I want to practice big law after I graduate, but I am open to practicing in many cities. My biggest concern is job placement. I know Boston College sends about 25 percent of its graduates to big law, whereas WashU sends about 17 percent. I’m also concerned that WashU has less of a national reputation than Notre Dame and am worried that it will be difficult finding a job. Any opinion on what to do would be greatly appreciated!

  • Dave Killoran
    March 16, 2017 at 10:15pm

    Hi Mary,

    Thanks for the question! Ok, my first standard piece of advice is to use LST Reports to get at data that will help clarify your options: https://www.lstreports.com/national/. Here’s what we know about rankings and debt (all numbers rounded to nearest thousand):

    #26 Boston College: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/bc/

    Total Cost: $261K
    Minus Scholarship: -$78K
    Total Debt after grad: $183K

    #20 Notre Dame: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/notredame/

    Total Cost: $279K
    Minus Scholarship: -$60K
    Total Debt after grad: $219K

    #18 WashU: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/washu/

    Total Cost: $284K
    Minus Scholarship: -$105K
    Total Debt after grad: $179K

    So, the schools are all rather closely ranked (18-20-26). As for debt, BC and WashU put you in about the same ending spot, whereas ND a good $40K more.

    Let’s turn to Biglaw jobs prospects (but I add clerkships in too, since those often create many very positive career options afterwards). Again, using LST Reports and looking at school employment outcomes:

    #26 Boston College: 41.3%
    #20 Notre Dame: 40.2%
    #18 WashU: 33.8%

    And, of course, this step is quite revealing: although Note Dame costs more, BC very slightly outperforms it (note: the numbers are all under 50%, which is saying hat your chances are less than half of going down this pathway with any of these schools). Why does this occur? Because of BC being in Boston, a big town, whereas ND is in South Bend (yes, close to Chicago, but not actually IN Chicago). St. Louis is decent sized, but it’s not a major legal center.

    I realize that Notre Dame has a big name because everyone in the US knows the school (their big time football program certainly doesn’t hurt with that). But they have a lower rank, cost more, and don’t do better than BC in terms of placement. So, if you aren’t feeling ND, I don’t see a great reason to change your mind.

    So, if you’re down to BC and WashU, you are actually in a GREAT spot. why? Because WashU has the better ranking AND gave you a better aid offer. It’s time to use that better offer as leverage and negotiate yourself an improved BC package.

    Here’s what I’d do: I’d go to BC and tell them you really want to go there (assuming that’s true) but that money is obviously an issue. Explain that you currently have a strong financial aid offer from WashU (their $35K per year vs $26K from BC), and take it from there to attempt to get them to improve their offer. That might then put BC over the top as your top choice.

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Mary
    March 19, 2017 at 12:36am

    Hi Dave,

    Thank you so much for your response! That definitely helps. I actually just got back from Boston today and am fairly confident that I want to be at BC, but money is of course a huge hinderance in this. Unfortunately, admissions representatives were out of the office doing recruiting activities while I was there, so I was unable to speak to anybody in person. Instead, I drafted an email to BC and am planning on sending it tonight basically stating the above. Do scholarship negotiations usually work from your experience?

    You definitely confirmed my current thoughts–ND is likely a no, BC is probable pending scholarship negotiations and WashU is backup should scholarship negotiations end not in my favor. Hearing your thoughts on this has been a huge help; it’s nice to know that I’m approaching this decision in the right way!

    Thank you so much for your help. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your prompt feedback and input on this! I’ll keep you updated after scholarship negotiations. Crossing my fingers it works out!

  • Sonya
    March 19, 2017 at 4:34am

    Hi!
    Having a difficult time making a decision. My daughter has several choices: UC Hastings with no money; Univ San Fran and Santa Clara with 85% scholarship; Chapman with full ride. Hastings by far highest ranked but not sure if she should take on the debt. Causing sleepless nights. Help!

  • Mary
    March 20, 2017 at 7:24pm

    Hi Dave,

    I just wanted to follow up. BC got back to me and said that their initial offer ($26,000 per year) is their best offer. As a generally debt adverse person, what do you recommend at this stage? Go to BC, have more debt but have potentially better job prospects, or go to WashU, have less debt but also worse job prospects in big law? Thanks again for your help!

  • Lindsay
    March 21, 2017 at 4:05pm

    Hello,

    I would love if you could give me some insight on my current situation. I’m currently on the waitlist for University of Washington, Boston University, Notre Dame, and UC Irvine. I’m waiting to hear back from UC Davis, William & Mary, and USC. I have received a full ride scholarship offer from Willamette University in Oregon and a $22,000 per year scholarship from the University of Oregon.

    I currently live in Oregon, and have a job at the Oregon legislature that I really enjoy. However, I was hoping to leave Oregon. The Oregon schools are much lower ranked than the waitlist schools. If I get off the waitlist for any of the higher ranked schools, do you think it would be worth it to attend one of them instead of the cheaper, lower ranked Oregon schools?

    I appreciate any insight you may have!

  • Dakota Wild
    March 21, 2017 at 10:16pm

    Hi Dave,

    Thanks for your input. It’s a classic and difficult position indeed!

    Unfortunately I don’t have money at other T14s… I was waitlisted at Duke + Berkeley, rejected at Cornell, and given nothing at Georgetown. I do have $30k (total) from UCLA and $105k from GW, but I don’t feel there is much in either of those in terms of negotiating with Penn . What do you think?

    Thanks!
    Dakota

  • Brooke
    March 22, 2017 at 12:30am

    Useful site. Deciding between $150,000 at Washington University, $135,000 at UVA, sticker price at Cornell, Duke, Penn, and Columbia, or at least with no money yet. Clerkship is goal out of law school followed by biglaw firm for 2-5 years and then public service litigation with possible political career in mind.

  • Dave Killoran
    March 22, 2017 at 5:47pm

    Hi Mary,

    Thanks for the reply! I’m glad that your visit to BC went well–Boston is obviously a great town (by the way, I hear great things about St. Louis as well–I’ve had a number of friends spend time there who actually loved it). If this is down to BC vs WashU, the debt is so similar as to be non-determinative. It’s really down to which school you like better and which one you think will help you to perform as well as possible. Your first grades will be key to your job prospects, and thus you need an environment where you will do as well as possible.

    The alternative here is that if WashU was really an option, to go back to them and ask them to sweeten the offer to a number that you would fine irresistible (or, as they say in The Godfather, you want them to make you an offer that you can’t refuse :). However, I only recommend that approach if you know that there is such a number and that you would indeed attend–to me, honesty in negotiation is absolutely essential, and I would only open up a negotiation with WashU if there is a chance they could change your mind. And if they can, be clear about the number that it would take to do that.

    As far as BC, it’s interesting to me that they stood firm. Sometimes schools will do that, other times not. It depends on a lot of different factors, including your numbers and how their own applicant pool is shaping up. Thus, from year to year things will change, and that makes it very tough to predict how a school will act. Did you just send a letter to them about the debt? I ask because maybe it would be in your best interest to call them up and talk to the person who sent you your reply. A real live conversation can sometimes get a school to change their offer–hearing a person is so much different than reading a letter and impersonally replying to it. Perhaps you call them up, thank them so much for taking the time to reply, and let them know if they could just sweeten it a little–say $4K a year or sometime rather minor–you’d sign on the dotted line right then, you might be able to turn them over on this. And if not, what’s the harm? You can still tell them you love the school and want to attend.

    I get the sense you are leaning towards BC here, and given that the alternative is WashU, I think you are good there. The debt is very similar but BC has better prospects for what you seek.

    Please let me know if this helps. Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    March 22, 2017 at 7:07pm

    Hi Sonya,

    It’s extremely difficult to choose any school without having a lot of info upfront about the student 🙂 Your daughter certainly has some interesting choices, and the first step you should take is to determine the specifics of each school situation. In my response to Mary above, I made a debt/placement analysis for her schools, and that’s the first thing you should do as well: use the LST School Reports to determine debt and job prospects: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/. This puts things in a clear picture: what are the costs involved and how does the school do with job placement? For example, Chapman is ranked #134, and their job placement numbers are not that good, and so something like that requires more knowledge about your daughter, such as, what are her career goals? Is she getting a degree because she wants to be a judge? Or a big-time corporate attorney? Because Chapman isn’t great for those options. Or, is she looking to take a position at your family law firm? If so, then a full ride at Chapman might just be perfect.

    There are other questions out there too–such as the fact that three of those schools are in the Bay Area whereas Chapman is down in Orange County. Where you go to school can have an impact on where she plans to practice, and so we need to better understand her goals here. Basically, to provide advice that is maximally useful, we need to know a LOT more about your daughter 🙂

    Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    March 22, 2017 at 7:20pm

    Hi Lindsay,

    Thanks for the question! Your situation is so open-ended right now that’s it’s really difficult to provide any insights until some of the options become clearer. You have three schools that haven’t weighed in yet, and so those could be options, and if one gives you a good financial package, the debate might end right there 🙂 Same thing with the Wait List schools–I don’t know what your personal priority list is, and it could be that one of those schools is you dream, and so if you get admitted you might just take it.

    The starting point here should be for you to really work out where you want to go–the list of schools you applied to is quite wide-ranging, and I don’t get a sense from it what your interests or priorities are. so, you need to make sure you know where you really want to go, and why. The second step would be to break down the financials in the same way I did for Mary above. Third, isolate your career goals and compare them to the job placement info for each school. Narrow the field so you can see what really matters to you.

    As for the Oregon schools (and as a full disclaimer, my sister-in-law lives in Portland, I love Oregon in general, and on top of that I personally am a huge Ducks fan), it depends on whether you want to live and practice in Oregon after graduation. an Oregon degree will play well in the Pacific Northwest, but if you are going to DC or Philly or NYC, it drops off the table as far as recognition. So, the answer there depends very much on you and your goals. Thus, to provide any helpful info, I’d need a lot more info form you, and it also may be that we need to wait for more schools to give you firm answers and WL updates.

    Please let me know what you think. Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    March 22, 2017 at 11:58pm

    Hey Brooke,

    Thanks for the question. First off, congrats on all the acceptances–that is fantastic and gives you a great range of options! Second, I assume you mean a $135K scholarship at UVA, etc. Based on what you’ve mentioned, it would be very hard to turn down UVA to pay sticker at any school, even Columbia. Virginia is ranked 8th in the newest rankings and it’s a great school with no weaknesses (and trust me, as a Duke grad, it pains me deeply to say that about UVA 🙂

    Given the options and the fact that I’m generally debt-averse, I’d take the money, which would reduce it to Washington (and do you mean Washington University in St Louis, Washington + Lee, or even possibly the University of Washington? I’ve assumed it’s WashU in St. Louis but I should double-check) and UVA. Of UVA and WashU, if all else is equal, the extra $15K is worth it to me, and so I’d still be inclined to go Virginia.

    By the way, here’s the LST Report on Virginia: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/uva/. Very solid, and around 70% of grads end up at a large firm or in a federal clerkship, so right in your general pathway.

    Please let me know what you think. Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    March 23, 2017 at 12:03am

    Hey Dakota,

    Yes, you are exactly right–#15 UCLA and #30 GW won’t open the door to negotiating with #7 Penn. UCLA is obviously the closest, but the $30K total isn’t enough to make Penn feel like it’s competitive and something they’d need to match. So, you are probably in a position where what’s on the table is what you have to work with :/ I wish I could say something more insightful but basically comes down to how you feel here about the debt and the job prospects. This is now prestige vs lower debt, and there are going to be people who feel strongly on both sides of that debate. Sometimes I would say “what does your gut say here?” but instead I’m going to say: “After weighing all the factors, which seems like the safer path?”

  • Dov Levine
    March 27, 2017 at 3:41pm

    Hi!

    I was hoping you would be able to help me with my current situation. I currently have been accepted with full scholarships to Cardozo, U. Miami and St.John’s, as well has $30,000 off each year at Fordham Law School ($90,000 in total). I am also currently on the waitlist of Cornell and waiting to hear back from Boston U.

    I have narrowed down my options to Cardozo and Fordham, however, I am not sure if taking on debt is worth it if I can go for free to a pretty solid law school.

    My biggest concern is job placement, specifically if I would be able to get somewhat of a well paying job out of Cardozo if I don’t make the top 10%.

    I am also very concerned with coming out of law school with debt, especially if I can have the same sort of outcome at the lower-ranked Cardozo.

    In addition, do you believe I have any leverage on requesting more scholarship money from Fordham? And if so, how do you advise I should go about it?

    Please let me know what you think! Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    March 27, 2017 at 9:21pm

    Hi Dov,

    Thanks for the question! As a quick reference for you, earlier in this thread we had a Cardozo vs Fordham discussion, and you can find that here: http://blog.powerscore.com/lsat/scholarship-vs.-prestige-when-to-take-th…. The discussion and analysis there was a bit different since both choices resulted in some debt ($90K vs $195K, with that $90K being enough that it affected my recommendation, actually), but the basic idea–Fordham with more debt vs Cardozo with significantly less, is similar.

    In that situation, there were certain stated employment goals that made Fordham more attractive than usual (since both resulted in a lot of debt, the extra debt was less troublesome), so in reading that please keep that in mind. In your case, I’m inclined to agree with you–if it’s going to be basically free to go to Cardozo, that’s incredibly attractive. Law school debt is non-dischargeable, so you are stuck with it no matter what. Thus, I always tend towards debt-free outcomes whenever possible.

    Job outcomes here are obviously critical, and you should carefully peruse the LST Reports: See https://www.lstreports.com/schools/cardozo/jobs and https://www.lstreports.com/schools/fordham/jobs. Fordham has the edge, BUT is it worth going about $218K into debt for? I have a *very* hard to believing it is worth that.

    At the end you ask about negotiating with Fordham, and that’s a smart move that I fully support. I’m currently working on a short article about negotiating with law schools, but I don’t think it will be about for about two weeks. The bottom line is that you should try it here because there’s clearly a chance you’d go to Fordham if they offered you more money (and you should have that figure in mind when you write them–don’t be swayed because they offered you a little bit more; know beforehand exactly what number you think they need to reach to make it persuasive). I usually recommend negotiating by using offers from similar or more highly-ranked schools, but you don’t quite have that option here. So, be direct with them. Explain that Cardozo (and St. Johns, to make your case even stronger) has given you a full ride and that you find that attractive. Tell them that you prefer Fordham (assuming that’s the case), and ask not only for them to increase their offer but name a figure if you can. I’d think there’s a high chance they just sit tight here–while Cardozo is in the same area, Fordham is solidly higher in the USNews rankings than Cardozo (#36 vs #65, although neither school is in the top 50 according to the Above the Law rankings). Often when a school feels that the other school isn’t in their bracket they just ignore them and won’t negotiate. So that might happen here, but so what? Better to try it and see rather than wonder about it later. You unfortunately don’t have much leverage here (if Cornell had accepted you it would have been a card you could have played) so give it your best shot and see what happens.

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Dov
    March 28, 2017 at 2:47pm

    Thank you very much for all of your help!

    One last question I just have, when talking about specific employment goals and future plans. If BIGLAW is not a must for me, do the rankings of law schools still matter?

    I obviously want to have employment options and opportunities, and not only have to work in the public sector. But I’m just wondering if all this talk of rankings, prestige and connections matter most for BIGLAW

  • Dave Killoran
    March 28, 2017 at 3:46pm

    Hey Dov,

    No, the rankings reflect general assessments of a law school, and thus they tend to come into play for any job situation. For example, if Yale grad comes up against a Pepperdine grad, if all else is equal then the Yale grad will have an advantage. That’s just basic human nature I think, and more a reflection of that than the legal field itself.

    The Biglaw placements reflect not just the rankings but geographic location as well. But the same is true for clerkships and any highly desirable position. What it really comes down to is that law is a rather hierarchical field, and because of that the prestige of a school tends to be important. Are there exceptions? Certainly, and there are plenty of successful attorneys who didn’t go to a T14 school.

    Thanks!

  • Dakota Wild
    March 28, 2017 at 7:30pm

    Thanks so much for your response.
    A rather unexpected event developed over the last two days – Penn offered me $30,000 scholarship (total over 3 years) and I received about $75k in grants from them. I’m shocked and thrilled! I will still need to take on considerable debt to go there, but at least I won’t be paying sticker. This is a huge help. At this point, my choice seems like a no-brainer. My question to you is: Is there any point in trying to negotiate and squeeze a bit more out of them? As you know, I really don’t have comparable offers, but do you feel there’s harm in trying? Will I come off as ungrateful and too forward to ask for anything more? I’ll be going to their ASW this weekend and am considering stopping by their financial aid office… What do you think?

  • Dave Killoran
    March 28, 2017 at 8:01pm

    Hey Dakota,

    Congrats on that news–that is awesome! My first reaction was one with a small bit of concern, but once I heard that you’d be stopping by in person to make this pitch, those concerns went away. Doing it in person allows you to control and massage the message and convey it in a super-friendly, non-threatening way. As long as you do that, I’m all for it.

    One tip: I’d probably keep your request relatively small and try to be specific. A pitch along the lines of, “If you could increase the offer $4500 a year, it would position me to finalize my acceptance right now” is much easier for an admissions officer to process and approve than, “I am hoping to get a better aid package–what more can you do for me to put me in a position to enroll?”

    Good luck and please write back and let me know how it goes! I’d love to hear what you said adn how they responded. And, congrats once again 🙂

  • Mike M
    March 28, 2017 at 9:59pm

    Hey Dave,

    I’ve narrowed down to 5 schools and I’m not sure what I should do. I’m from Long Island and want to get into NYC big law.. at least that’s my plan for now. I also went to undergrad in florida so have interested in heading down south. My numbers are as follows:
    U Miami: 25k/yr +COL
    U of Florida: in state tuition + COL
    St John’s: 8k/yr + COL
    Cardozo: 18k/yr + COL
    Hofstra: Full Ride + COL

    Being in Florida would be awesome but I wouldn’t want to ruin my chances at a good NYC job. Also, how are big law jobs in Miami?

    Appreciate your opinion. Thanks

  • Dakota Wild
    March 28, 2017 at 10:23pm

    I will keep you updated! I will be nervous doing it in person, but yet I’m confident that I can deliver the message as you proposed, in a non-threatening, and friendly way. I can’t thank you enough for your responsiveness and advice – it has been extremely helpful. Thank you!

  • Dave Killoran
    March 28, 2017 at 11:04pm

    Hey Mike,

    Thanks for the message! Have you run the LST final debt/job analysis I’ve run in most of the threads here? Can you post that here–that’s always my starting point 🙂

    Thanks!

  • Brit J
    April 01, 2017 at 1:26am

    Hi Dave,

    I am struggling between three schools in particular-GW, William and Mary, and Uni of Maryland (the state I live). I have a big scholarship from W&M and a small one from Uni of MD, but nothing from GW. I want to practice family law in DC and MD. I am debt averse especially because I know I may not be making a lot of money practicing family law, but I also want to attend a school where I will be happy with my decision in the end. What are your thoughts? Thank you.

  • Dave Killoran
    April 01, 2017 at 6:25pm

    Hey Brit,

    Thanks for the question! Can yous tart by posting the debt/job/rankings analysis using the LST Reports/USNews/Above the Law in the style I used for I did Nikki and Dakota above? They look like this example:

    https://www.lstreports.com/schools/fordham/ — Non-discounted cost of $307K – $135K scholarship = $172K debt.

    Fordham: Employment score = 66.8% / Under Employment = 17.8%

    Fordham Rankings: USNews #36 ; ATL: unranked

    You always want to underpin your analysis using as many facts and details possible, and I need to see exactly what you mean by “big” and “small” scholarships before I can make any sort of informed comment 🙂

    Once you add in the financial details and post those, I’ll come back and share a few thoughts that will be specific to your situation.

    Thanks!

  • Roy
    April 03, 2017 at 3:40am

    Hey Dave,

    For the most part I have narrowed down my school list to three choices with statistics shown below (I say for the most part because I am waiting to here from UC Davis, which enough if awarded money I would highly consider).

    However, I have a deadline of April 7th to make a decision for Loyola in Chicago, which I am also highly considering. The three schools I am really considering are as follows with the reports for pricing with scholarships, employment scores, and rankings. By far Washington & Lee is the best school and they still offered as much (or more) in financial aid. They have the best job placement by far, especially in DC a region I would highly consider working in. The theme between all the schools I applied to is a Public Interest/Human Rights/Social Justice Program. Of these three Northeastern has by far the best program with my specific interest and I loved the school when I toured. Loyola is still a good program and I received the Civitas Child Law Fellowship (8 student cohort per class, with additional funding toward externships). Although Northeastern’s program I believe is overall better, I have already been pre-selected in a sense to be considered for many things at Loyola and I fear giving up such a fellowship would be a mistake. I have read your blog extensively and I am planning to ask Loyola to match the offer from Wash Lee and maybe that of Northeastern.

    Another large concern is place of living. I was interested in moving to a city (never lived in one) and Wash Lee is certainly not in a city. But I did undergrad at Virginia Tech and thrived as a student in that similar VA environment. I feel it isn’t what I want, but should I let geographic location make me forego the best school I’ve received a great package from?

    Is Wash Lee too good of a deal at a great school to pass up on? Is a highly competitive fellowship with connections and resources in my field of interest to good of a deal to pass up on?

    Loyola:
    Non-Discounted Price: $233.5K – $123K = $127K
    Employment Score: 51% Underemployment: 30%
    US News: 72 ATL: NA

    Northeastern:
    Non-Discounted Price: $240.5K – $139.5K = $101K
    Employment Score: 62% Underemployment: 24%
    US News: 82 ATL: NA

    Washington & Lee:
    Non-Discounted Price: $233.5K – $127.5K = $106K
    Employment Score: 74.5% Underemployment: 13%
    US News: 40 ATL: 25

    I would appreciate your thoughts,
    Thanks Roy!

  • Brit J
    April 03, 2017 at 5:05pm

    Hi Dave, thanks for responding. I put together the info. Again I would like to work possibly in family law and have the opportunity to work in the gov. in DC and MD.

    GW: *note I would be living at home
    Non-discounted cost of $308k
    GW: Employment score = 64% / Under Employment = 21.1%
    GW Rankings: USnews #30; ATL: #33

    William and Mary:
    Non-discounted cost of $184k – $75k scholarship = 109k debt
    W&M: Employment score= 66.3% / Under Employment = 35%
    W&M Rankings: USnews #41; ATL: #23

    University of Maryland:
    Non-discounted cost of $202k-8k scholarship= 194k
    GW: Employment score = 57.1% / Under Employment = 20.3%
    UMD Rankings: USnews #48; ATL: #33 Not ranked

  • Brooke
    April 04, 2017 at 12:11am

    Thanks, Dave. I actually wrote it wrong: It’s $35K/year at UVa, or $105K. Does that change your calculation? I would think not, but I’m interested to know if when the differential goes from $15K to $45K you would still go to UVA rather than WUSTL. Frankly, I’m having a hard time ignoring Columbia even at full freight. Is there ever a good reason to go for the highest ranked school just ’cause? Or if we’re not talking HYS, then they’re all about in the same boat? And, really, is WUSTL in the same boat? How about Cornell? Why is it ranked so low?

  • Dave Killoran
    April 04, 2017 at 12:34am

    Hey Brooke,

    $10K a year doesn’t affect too much to me here. That said, let me just say that given that you are feeling the pull of other schools at sticker price, you need to dive back down into all the at a and school info you have. this is not a decision you should make lightly, and you want to find a school that you love and that you will feel comfortable at! your first year grades will have a massive and determining effect on your chances for biglaw jobs and clerkships, so you want to start well. The best way to do that? To be a happy, healthy, comfortable student. So seek the school that is most likely to make that happen here.

    The article above, although not written by me, talks about the prestige factor. For me, prestige doesn’t help much if you have middling grades, and at good law schools that can easily happen–the competition is fierce. But regardless of your grades the debt you incur will be there after you finish, so I always prioritize what kind of hole each school leaves you in. Because it is just that–your law school debt is non-dischargeable and follows you until it is paid off. Sticker at Columbia is a hefty amount, and I personally would never pay it. But each person makes their own determination. I just want everyone here to know the facts before they dive in! so make sure you understand what the various costs are, and look at what kind of payment is required to service large debt loads. It can be eye-opening!

    That’s not to say I’m anti-Columbia; I’m not. It’s a killer school that opens many doors. for the students who go there, they walk away with a degree that’s speaks volumes. But at every school some people do great and some do not, and I always like to look at best and worst case outcomes. That ensures that you know the range of what could occur.

    Good luck with the decision and please let us know what you decide!!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 04, 2017 at 2:41am

    Hi Brit,

    Thanks for the reply! The first thing that jumps out at me is that if you are living at home for GW, then you won’t be paying $308K. I would carefully consider those costs and how much you’d save, because every dollar you don’t save is a dollar of debt you must pay off eventually.

    However, given the size of your scholarship at William & Mary, even living at home won’t bring GW down to that cost level. William & Mary is a great school, and you can see the USNews rankings support that and ATL actually puts it the highest ranked school (which means dollar for dollar they see it as the best of the 3). Given my own stated aversion to debt and your job preferences, debt management will be important and the costs here aren’t even close: W&M is $85K less than the next school (which is ranked lower!). So, I see nothing here that would sway me from William & Mary. At $109K it’s the best deal just on the numbers (that said, you have to determine if it’s the best deal or not for you and your personal preferences).

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 04, 2017 at 3:14am

    Hi Roy,

    Thanks for the question! I’m going to weigh in, but before I do so I’ll make a general request for anyone else to weigh in as well about the point I’ll raise, namely whether one should go to a better-regarded school or one that is lower-ranked but has a specialty program in your area of interest.

    My experience is that you should typically go with the better school. The specialty programs are nice, but law firms/judges/companies/governmental organizations all seem to look for the students with the best grades from the best schools. Specialty programs are considered a bonus, but they are window dressing of sorts–employers want the best lawyers, and they assume the best lawyers come from the better schools. So for me, W+L jumps right off the page as not only well-regarded across the board, but also priced basically the same as Northeastern. And, look at the W+L job numbers when they compare to the other two schools–it’s not even close. This is the better-regarded school with far better job outcomes, all at the same cost. Plus, on the personal side, I’ve sent several students who were friends there who loved it, so I have anecdotal experience about the school that is very positive.

    As far as location, I always say that it depends on the person. But, you’ve already thrived in a similar VA environment (your words!) and so you know that won’t be an issue. And you will have far better job options after graduating, and can then choose a city option (and, to be honest, you don’t want city distractions while in law school if you’ve never experienced them–you should be a study hermit while in school!).

    Last, my compliments to both Loyola and Northeastern here–they’ve made this a legit argument by doing what smaller schools need to do to compete against better ranked schools: specializing in interesting programs and creating programs that appeal to narrow but highly committed bands of users. I can’t give them enough compliments here for that and it’s a strategy I strongly endorse for other schools in similar positions.

    Ok, so I think I’ve stated my position here pretty clearly: aside from all the attractions and specialties elsewhere, I’d be all in on W+L given the job, cost, and prestige factors. However, you should seek alternate opinions. Ask some current law students and attorneys what they think about specialty programs and how they should be weighed vs overall job numbers and rankings. I’ll also tweet this out from my personal account (https://twitter.com/DaveKilloran) and see if anyone wants to add their thoughts. And if anyone else is reading, by all means add your thoughts if you have any!

    One more point: I’m a believer that the only opinion that counts is yours. If you feel like one of the other schools is the best call for you personally, then go with your gut. Only you know what will be best for you. Grades mean everything, and if another school puts you in the best spot to produce high grades, then it might be the better choice.

    Please let me know if this helps, and good luck with the decision. I’d love to know which way you decide to go so please post back along the way! Thanks!

  • Anna
    April 04, 2017 at 3:58pm

    Hi Dave,

    Thanks for your feedback on this topic!

    I am solidly focused on public interest and have so far gotten into Fordham ($135K), Cornell ($105K), Georgetown (waiting to hear), and Penn (waiting to hear).

    One thing that is making this decision difficult is the LRAP — on a visit to one of the schools, the director of financial aid told me not to bank on the LRAP being as good when I graduate as it is now. I suppose it has to do with the potential revocation of federal funding. That said, what does “not as good” mean? Is there a chance I may be left without any repayment help at all? I could maybe justify going to a school at sticker if I knew for certain that I would be able to make use of an LRAP.

    Another factor in assessing my options is getting a handle on public interest employment statistics from the different schools, since employment seems so heavily geared toward biglaw.

    Any insights you have would be greatly appreciated!

    Sincerely,
    Anna

  • Claire
    April 05, 2017 at 12:03am

    Hi Dave,

    I know you’ve dealt with scenarios very similar to mine, so I apologize if you feel that you’ve answered this question already.

    I was offered a full-ride by The University of Wisconsin Law School. I attended UW for undergrad, Wisconsin is my home state, and I think I want to practice in Milwaukee. I am 99% sure I will accept the offer. However, I am also accepted at Michigan (no scholarship), BU ($90,000 scholarship), and Notre Dame ($105,000 scholarship). My parents heavily favor Wisconsin, as they would like to see me graduate with no debt. That being said, neither of them are lawyers, and they know very little about competing in the legal field. I know several people currently in law school, and they INSIST that I would be a fool not to attend the very best school I get into. All of them suggest that the debt is nothing to worry about, because “a law degree from a top 10 school will pay the debt back tenfold.” I don’t know if they’re just drinking the kool-aid, or if they are actually pushing me in the right direction. Am I shutting doors on myself by going to a #30 school that would otherwise be wide open had I chosen #8?

    Thanks so much!I really appreciate your input.

    Claire

  • Dave Killoran
    April 05, 2017 at 12:35am

    Hi Anna,

    Thanks for the question! Unfortunately, in this case I don’t know the specifics of what the Director meant 🙁 I haven’t seen any reports to the effect that LRAP will be changed or eliminated, and so it could be a reference to *feared* changes in a lot of areas due to the current political administration. I seriously doubt you’d be left without any help at all though, and I don’t think the Director was trying to imply that (“not as good” is far different than “none”).

    As far as employment stats, I use LST Report (https://www.lstreports.com/schools/) and the ABA Standard 509 Disclosures (http://www.abarequireddisclosures.org/). Those both have a wealth of info!

    Please check those out and please let em know if they helps. Thanks!

  • Claire
    April 05, 2017 at 6:14pm

    Hi Dave,

    Just reminding you about my post above. I saw in an earlier comment that you recommend reposting in case you miss one! Thanks!

    Claire

  • Claire
    April 05, 2017 at 10:42pm

    I would also greatly appreciate your input to my above question, Nikki.

    Thanks!

  • Mike M
    April 05, 2017 at 10:57pm

    Hey Dave,

    Thanks for the response. below are the stats (not including cost of living because it is not an issue):

    U Miami Tuition non-discounted (150k) – 75k scholarship = 75k debt
    employment/unemployment scores 60.4/19.9

    Cardozo tuition non-discounted (168k) – 114k scholarship = 54k debt
    employment/unemployment scores 67.7/16.9

    St. Johns tuition non-discounted (165k) – 141k scholarship = 24k debt
    employment/unemployment scores 69.8/15.3

    Florida tuition non-discounted (67k) – 9k scholarship = 58k debt
    employment/unemployment scores 76.2/16.2

    Hofstra tuition non discounted 55k – full ride = no debt
    employment/unemployment scores 65.8/22.6

    Looking forward to your response, thanks

  • Dave Killoran
    April 05, 2017 at 10:59pm

    Hi Claire,

    Thanks for the reminder 🙂 I actually planned to add an answer today, so I hadn’t missed it. If you don’t see me reply to something for 5 or more days, then I’ve missed it. I almost always respond to things on the same day, but right now we are experiencing an extraordinarily high volume of questions above the LSAT and law school admissions, and it is slowly pushing me back.

    Nikki isn’t handling blog duties for us currently, so he will not be able to add in a response. Sorry about that!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 05, 2017 at 11:32pm

    Hi Claire,

    First off, as a native Minnesotan and lifelong Vikings/Twins/Gophers fan, let me apologize to you for your parents deciding to raise you in Wisconsin. That was cruel and unusual of them. You choosing to go to UW is all on you though 🙂

    All joking aside, you have the classic debt vs prestige argument you see all over these pages. Here’s what you should do: go look at the debt you would accrue–both via tuition/school costs and moving/living costs in Michigan–and then take a look at the monthly fee needed to service that debt. It’s a sobering number. Now, go to the UW number and consider that resulting monthly debt. It’s $0 or close to it. So, whatever decision you make here is going to have to result in it being worth the monthly payment of the first number. And it can’t be a hope–it has to be a guarantee. That takes us to a comparison of the relative position of the two schools.

    And here I don’t see that big number being justified. This isn’t #8 vs a 4th tier school; this is #8 vs #30. Wisconsin has an extremely well-regarded law school (not quite as high as Minnesota’s though 😉 and you will have solid prospects when you graduate.

    Second, let’s look at jobs and geography. If you were dead-set on a biglaw job in NYC and the school in question was Harvard or Columbia vs Wisconsin, then again I could see this debate being more intense. But you’re looking at Milwaukee and the other school in question is geographically proximate Michigan. Even if you moved to Chicago, both schools still play well in that market. So again I don’t see it being worth the money.

    Last, let’s talk about your friends who are basically insisting that you take on $273.5K in debt. Two questions: did they receive scholarships to their schools or not (in other words, did they make the same debt-laden choice) and if not, could this be a case of others wanting to pull you down into the same position since misery loves company? Because I can’t imagine a current law student isn’t at least aware of the fact that there is no such thing as a guaranteed outcome for any school. Sure, Harvard gives you a better chance at certain killer jobs, but there are students at Harvard who are finishing in the bottom half of class and aren’t finding it simple, easy, or guaranteed. An internet search should reveal lots of discussions about this exact issue, and it’s in no way commonly accepted that pay full ride at a top school is the obvious or right choice!

    The motivation of your parents may be monetary, but that doesn’t mean they are wrong. This is #30 vs #8–it’s close enough that I would stick with the feeling you seem to have that Wisconsin is the better choice (that actually means more than usual given my antipathy towards Wisconsin 🙂

    The only way I think you should consider changing your thoughts on this is if Michigan were to come up with a very attractive financial aid package, along the lines of more than 50%.

    Please let me know if this helps. Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 06, 2017 at 12:28am

    Hey Mike,

    Thanks so much for adding in this update! Just so everyone can see the rankings–which do matter since they reflect general perceptions–I’m going to add those in here:

    U Miami Tuition non-discounted (150k) – 75k scholarship = 75k debt
    employment/unemployment scores 60.4/19.9
    USNews: #77 ATL: Unranked

    Florida tuition non-discounted (67k) – 9k scholarship = 58k debt
    employment/unemployment scores 76.2/16.2
    USNews: #41 ATL: 30

    Cardozo tuition non-discounted (168k) – 114k scholarship = 54k debt
    employment/unemployment scores 67.7/16.9
    USNews: #65 ATL: Unranked

    St. Johns tuition non-discounted (165k) – 141k scholarship = 24k debt
    employment/unemployment scores 69.8/15.3
    USNews: #72 ATL: Unranked

    Hofstra tuition non discounted 55k – full ride = no debt
    employment/unemployment scores 65.8/22.6
    USNews: #118 ATL: Unranked

    In your earlier comment, you also said: “I’m from Long Island and want to get into NYC big law.. at least that’s my plan for now. I also went to undergrad in florida so have interested in heading down south…Being in Florida would be awesome but I wouldn’t want to ruin my chances at a good NYC job.”

    Ok, all of that together allows us to start making some evaluations. As usual, my disclaimer is that this assumes all else is equal, and that each school is a school you want to attend and would be a good place for you. Only you know the true answers there, so rely on your own judgment 🙂

    I grouped the two Florida schools together due to market proximity. In the case of Florida and Miami, that lower tuition makes Florida cheaper, and then you can see that their rankings are stronger. Importantly to me, Florida made the ATL Top 50 list, and I like their reliance on costs and job outcomes. So, between Florida and Miami, I’d choose Florida. I like Miami’s big city location–and better proximity to the small, tough, but growing Miami biglaw market–but it’s hard to beat better reputation and less debt.

    With the New York area schools, it would probably be St. Johns for me. I love Hofstra’s no debt outcome, but St. John’s is only $24K in total debt, and they are much more highly regarded overall (which is reflected in the rankings). I generally like Cardozo, and I know their big firm placement is slightly better than St. John’s, but overall job stats are a shade worse and it’s also $30K more than St. John’s.

    So, that reduces the field to Florida and St. Johns for me. Now you get into real decision problems based on where you want to practice and debt levels. Florida has the better reputation and ranking, but costs $34K more, and it’s miles away from that NYC market and so doesn’t do quite as well with big firm placement. I’d probably go Florida but it’s a coin toss. In NYC maybe the uniqueness of being a Florida grad gets you some passing interest vs being a grad of a local school they see tons of people from. I don’t like the higher cost but I do like the higher ATL ranking. Tough call.

    Please let me know what you think of that breakdown. Thanks!

  • Claire
    April 06, 2017 at 12:50am

    Hey Dave,

    Sorry for my lack of patience 🙂 I’ve been stressing out over this decision, and I was itching to get your input. You have been incredibly helpful, and I really value your opinion. Looks like gophers and badgers can get along after all! Who knew!

  • Mike M
    April 06, 2017 at 12:59am

    Hey Dave,

    Thanks for the feedback. I totally agree that it comes down to Florida and St. John’s. I definitely feel the 8k/yr is worth it over a Hofstra full ride. When it comes to UF, it’s a tough call just because of the NYC opportunities. The school itself and ranking is attractive. I’ll let you know what I decide! Thanks again!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 07, 2017 at 2:45am

    Hey Claire,

    No worries at all, I could tell your were anxious about it, and that is understandable. If you are still worried you are making the wrong decision, keep researching and talking to people. Talk to as many different people around the legal field as you can, including as many recent *grads* as possible (current law students too, although they are more prone towards confirmation bias). I rarely voice my opinion quite as strongly as I have here but then the decisions are often muddier, and don’t often involve a full ride with adjacent access to your practice market of choice 🙂

    Good luck with the decision and please let me know what you finally choose. Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 07, 2017 at 2:55am

    Agree 100%, it’s tough to turn down the ranking but if NYC is your target then it gets harder. I’m usually for taking the school with higher prestige when most everything else is close, but how that Florida degree plays in the northeast is not something I’m entirely certain about.

    According to LSTReports on the location of Florida grads (https://www.lstreports.com/schools/florida/jobs/location/), New York received 1.9% of 2015 Florida grads, which was tied for 2nd on the UF placement list (which, not surprisingly, was dominated by the state of Florida = 88.8%, then Georgia = 1.9% and NY = 1.9%). Problem is, 1.9% equals just 5 students, and so the sample is quite small. Thus, those relatively low numbers may have more to do with Florida grads wanting to stay in sunny Florida than with a lack of opportunities presented to grads of the school, but there’s no way for us to tell just from the numbers of grads there; we’d need to know how many tried to find employment in NY to have a better picture.

    Anyway, best of luck and please let me know what you decide. Thanks!

  • Mike M
    April 07, 2017 at 11:31pm

    Hey Dave… Penn State-University Park just got back to me and upped their offer to a full ride + $1,000 book stipend..What are your thoughts on this in comparison to my other options above?

    PSU-University Park
    US News Ranking: 82
    ATL Ranking: Unranked

    Employment Score: 53.1%
    Under-employment Score: 26.5%

    Thanks

  • Dave Killoran
    April 08, 2017 at 6:13pm

    Hey Mike,

    Congrats on the full ride! They would probably nose out St. Johns for me in the northeast, but it’s very close and I can see St. Johns being someone else’s choice. For me, I see Penn State as having an advantage since it’s free, and then also I know they’ve been working on those law schools, and have a stated commitment to making them better. When you can put state university system money behind a school, that can make a difference and hence I suspect in years to come their ranking will be even higher. Big drawback is employment right now.

  • Amy
    April 11, 2017 at 1:57am

    Hi Dave,

    Thanks so much for this blog and for the time and effort you’ve put into answering our questions. I have an interesting situation – it’s been somewhat mentioned here but not quite the same. My life is in nyc and so I’m only considering schools in the nyc area. That being said – I have narrowed my options down to Cardozo and Fordham (like a few of the others on this thread). Cardozo has offered me a full ride guaranteed for 3 years with no academic stips while Fordham has offered me a guaranteed $20k/year. I guess the interesting thing in my situation is that I have no other debt from undergrad or my Master’s (I attended on full rides) and I would be living in Manhattan, at home, with no rent payment. Is the $120k overall worth it for Fordham’s stronger reputation and alumni reach? (I say $120k because I’m calculating $36k/year plus other fees but no other payments since COL is free).

    I am not particularly interested in big law but I would like for it to be an option rather than not. It seems like Fordham has a higher reach in big law AND mid law, as well as federal clerkships. It’s a very conflicting situation — either Cardozo for absolutely free or Fordham for $120k over 3 years. I’m torn.

    Would appreciate ANY advice you could give me!

  • Breanne
    April 11, 2017 at 3:31pm

    Hi Dave,

    Thank you for all of the helpful information on this topic!

    I was offered a full-ride by The University of Minnesota Law School. However, I was also accepted at the University of Chicago Law School. The University of Chicago has offered me a scholarship of $10,000.00 per year, I have requested a scholarship review in hopes of having more assistance.

    I am from the Twin Cities Area and up until I attended the Admitted Students Weekend at UChicago I was very confident that I would attend the U of M. However, after visiting UChicago I can’t help but feel I would be missing out on a huge opportunity if I decide not to attend.

    As of now, I am interested in pursing a career in public interest, particularly in the field of education law/educational policy. One reason UChicago stands out is the location in Chicago, I would like to pursue an internship at the U.S. Department of Education, Office of Civil Rights, which has a field office in Chicago. Additionally, UChicago offers a generous summer funding program for public interest positions and a great LRAP.

    However, I know that I could change my mind after starting school and learning about different opportunities. I feel that UChicago offers the most flexibility and opportunity for being unsure about career choice as it is a nationally known school.

    All that being said graduating with $250K in debt is a bit hard to contemplate. I know that the U of M is also a great school and the opportunity to graduate almost debt free is very attractive. But almost everyone I have spoken to has expressed that I should go to UChicago, that the price is worth it in terms of opportunities as a student and future career choices.

    I would appreciate any general thoughts/opinions you may have on my situation! Thanks so much!

  • Sarah
    April 12, 2017 at 11:46am

    Hi Dave,

    Thank you for your help! My dilemma is between a full ride at NY Law (112) vs sticker price at University of Miami (77).

    NY Law: I’ll need to pay for cost of living. Also, I must qualify to renew scholarship each year.
    Miami: 150K plus cost of living

    I would be open to practice in NY or South Florida. I already have an MBA, so looking into corporate, but still not exactly sure what I want to do. I visited both schools and I was much more impressed with Miami’s program, but it’s not a top 50 school. I worry that NY Law doesn’t have the connections needed in NY and there’s a lot of competition in NY.

    I appreciate any insight you have! Thank you!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 13, 2017 at 12:18am

    Hi Amy,

    Thanks for the message! It’s funny how the Fordham vs Cardozo decision has come up quite a bit in the comments here but you can see why since it’s a tough one. If you compare the two schools, the overall employment numbers are similar (see https://www.lstreports.com/schools/cardozo/ and https://www.lstreports.com/schools/fordham/), but inside those numbers is where the difference appears. As you noted, Fordham places better in large firms and clerkships whereas Cardozo send more grads to smaller firms (which are often perceived as less desirable) and public service. As for whether you are interested in biglaw, I think you made the correct point that doesn’t matter because you want options, and “better” law schools tend to generate better job choices.

    When we start talking about schools, it’s easy for the money to get abstracted. that is, $120K doesn’t feel like anything significant because it’s just numbers on paper right now. So, the best thing I can think of for you is to look at the monthly costs and fees associated with that debt level, and for there make the determination if the extra opportunities at biglaw/clerkships is worth it. Imperfect but at least it gives you a definite sense of the money involved. Try these two:

    Michigan Law Debt Wiz Calculator: https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/debtwizard/Pages/Debt-Wizard-Calc…

    Washington Post Student Loan Debt Calculator: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/business/student-loan-debt-…

    I know it’s conflicting but perhaps that will tip you one way or the other. Good luck!!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 13, 2017 at 12:36am

    Hi Breanne,

    Thanks for the message! This is a tough one too. In this case you have a Top 25 law school in Minnesota that looks to be near free for you vs a Top 5 law school in Chicago, which has national and international recognition. I find decisions of this sort (good vs great) to be a real challenge, mainly because I know that if I were in your shoes I’d be facing the exact same mental arguments, and perhaps one even closer to you than you think since my whole family is from Minnesota and I graduated high school from the area (Minnetonka represent! 🙂 So, in this case, I feel like I understand all the non-personal factors in play very well but even with all that knowledge, I don’t have a clear answer for you.

    So, let’s reduce this down to what it really is: you’re paying $250K to go to a higher-ranked school. That’s pretty much the simple trade here, and it’s basically as if someone walked into your living room and said give me a check and instead of Minnesota you can go to UChicago. When I put it that way to you, does it change your outlook in any way? Do you suddenly think that maybe that’s a mistake? Or do you think to yourself that that sounds like a good deal, and it’s one you’d make every day of the week? How you respond there can tell you which way you are leaning so listen closely to your gut reaction.

    The other thing to do is to go look at exactly what $250K in debt looks like in monthly payments. Check out these two sites:

    Michigan Law Debt Wiz Calculator: https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/debtwizard/Pages/Debt-Wizard-Calc…

    Washington Post Student Loan Debt Calculator: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/business/student-loan-debt-…

    That will help give you a sense of whether this is a good decision for you. Obviously, Chicago gives you opportunities that you don’t see at a lot of schools, even Minnesota. But it’s a trade of opportunities for cash. For many students that works out well, but not for everyone so examine the options closely.

    Last, when other people see a high-level door open to someone else, the natural tendency is to tell that person to take the opportunity. Years ago, this wouldn’t have even been a conversation. But since the economic meltdown and the subsequent difficulties in the legal profession, this is not longer a slam-dunk yes to Chicago. So, that’s my way of saying that you should devalue what your friends say. Look at the facts instead as much as you can:)

    Please let me know what you think, and definitely let me know what you decide! Thanks and good luck!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 13, 2017 at 1:59am

    Hi Sarah,

    Thanks for the question! The first steps here are to run the full debt and job analysis you’ve seen me run with other schools in these comments, using LST Reports: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/. That will show you the exact costs associated with each school, and I tend to prefer the sum total of what is needed to attend a school as opposed to broad cost of living assignments (COL) because just saying COL takes away the reality of the dollars that must be paid back.

    Next, look at the jobs situation. This is where I think you get the second number that affects the decision-making process: employment (the first key number is straight costs/debt). NYLS has a number that has always concerned me, which is their employment score, which is under 50%. Miami isn’t fantastic, but it is better at 60.4%. I have real problems with schools under 50% because even though you are just paying COL, it’s still in the six figures in NYC, and you are going to need a job afterwards. The line is very narrow at NYLS, and basically your grades need to just be awesome. there’s no safety net there at all (to be fair, that’s true at every school, but it’s even moreso the case at NYLS if that makes sense). So, when I look at this, it’s hard for me to avoid saying that despite the higher cost, Miami is the better call. You of course have to weigh all the options and see how they affect your life, but on the face of it I lean towards Miami.

    By the way, the comment you made about environment is an important one to me. How you feel about where you are at is very important, and that comfort can make securing top grades easier (not easy, just easier :). The question to ask is: where do you envision yourself, and where do you see yourself performing well?

    Please let me know if the above helps. Thanks!

  • Chase
    April 13, 2017 at 2:13pm

    Hey Dave,

    Tough decision over here that has to be made by TOMORROW AT NOON. I’ve talked to so many different people from all backgrounds and walks of life, and there is no real consensus. Here’s hoping you can provide some insight!

    My two options:

    Harvard (with a 26K per year need-based grant. Total debt works out to about 189K)
    Penn (with Levy–faculty and alumni mentor, about 60K debt–for COL)

    Background on me: I’m drawn towards public interest/govt. work; however, I would say my end goal would be to work governmental relations for a corporation. The more I read about BigLaw, the more scared I get. I don’t want to spend the first ten years of my professional life, stuck in an 80 hr/week job, with no time to settle down and start a family. This is really important to me, and I’d take a much lower starting salary (than the 180K) in a smaller firm if it meant less hours/cutthroat/anxiety.

    I worry about Penn in terms of its geographic reach. I’m not sure where I’d like to practice, but would like to have Texas open as an option.

    Your thoughts? Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 13, 2017 at 9:23pm

    Hey Chase,

    Thanks for the message! First off, congrats on the amazing choice you have here. Both schools are fantastic, and to get money at Harvard is great but to also have no tuition at Penn is fabulous. There aren’t enough adjectives to describe how nice your position is here.

    There are two parts where I think I can provide assistance: the debt/job question and the geographic reach of Penn. Let’s start by referring to something you said, namely that: “The more I read about BigLaw, the more scared I get. I don’t want to spend the first ten years of my professional life, stuck in an 80 hr/week job, with no time to settle down and start a family. This is really important to me, and I’d take a much lower starting salary (than the 180K) in a smaller firm if it meant less hours/cutthroat/anxiety.” That comment jumped off the page at me because you are quite clear there that being bogged down by a lot of debt and having to take a BigLaw job that grinds the life out of you is NOT something you are at all interested in. It’s also really great that you already know that and can articulate it at this point in the process. Many students don’t realize that they feel this way until they are actually in one of those jobs, and ordering Chinese food at 11 PM while working in the office on a Saturday night. So, while $60K is still a significant amount of debt, with the employment prospects of Penn it is certainly manageable. And, actually, $189K is also manageable when you have Harvard on your resume. So either choice here would work out, but obviously when you are so clear about debt-avoidance (or really, BigLaw associate avoidance), that tends to tilt the decision towards Penn in my mind. I believe you also feel that way, and it’s why you raised the concern over Penn’s geographic influence.

    So let’s talk about Penn’s national reputation. Penn is a perennial T14 school (ranked #7 this year, as you surely know), and they are generally a well-known school nationally and internationally. Are they quite as well-recognized as Harvard or Stanford? No, they aren’t on that level. Those schools live in a special strata that includes the most famous universities in the world (like Oxford and Cambridge in England). Penn is one cut below those schools from a reputation standpoint. But still that is quite excellent. To analogize, it’s like saying that a player isn’t Michael Jordan. Ok, so the player isn’t the best in history but that doesn’t mean the player isn’t good. Maybe they are Charles Barkley or Kareem or Magic–still great in their own right. One way to see that is to examine the job placement of Penn grads (via LST Reports at https://www.lstreports.com/schools/penn/jobs/), where you can see that federal clerkships go to 10.6% of the class. Clerkships are prestigious and highly desirable, and 10% is an extraordinarily high figure (compare it to #15 Georgetown, for example, which sends 3.5% of its students to federal clerkship positions (which is actually a great number compared to most other schools, but is nowhere near the class of Penn). Second, where do Penn grads go to practice? Are they locally constrained and forced to stay in the area? No, they aren’t. Only 12.5% practice in Pennsylvania (compare that to a school like Minnesota that has 55% of its grads practicing in MN). Per LST, Penn’s geographic placement is as follows:

    NY: 48.8%
    PA: 12.5%
    DC: 9.6%
    Texas: 5.8%

    So, Texas is the fourth state on the placement list, and probably the figure could be higher if more Penn grads applied for Texas jobs. In other words, the school will play well in Texas, and you shouldn’t have any problems having a degree from there when seeking employment in TX.

    Bottom line is that if you want to avoid debt then you can safely choose Penn and feel good about it: it’s a great school with a strong national reputation, and because of that the grads do well in both quality of position as well as location. It’s a top 10 school, and given the lowered debt you’d leave with, it’s an incredibly attractive offer. If you instead choose Harvard, well, you’ve got Harvard on your resume and after that all you need to do is punch out some solid 1L grades and you’ll be set.

    Last, if you still can’t decide, put deposits down at both schools and buy yourself some time. It’s a totally practice, adn this decision is big enough that if you need more time, then it’s worth paying for. See http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/multiple_deposits/ for more info if needed.

    Please let me know if that helps, and please let me know what you decide to do!

  • Melissa
    April 15, 2017 at 12:32pm

    Hi Dave,

    Like many of the people in this thread, I have a difficult decision to make. The two options I’m considering are Vanderbilt and University of Michigan. At Vanderbilt, I have a scholarship of $27k/year, and at Michigan, I have a $20k/year scholarship. Both schools have similar tuition costs (Vanderbilt =$54k, Michigan =$58k). I don’t have a preference for where I will end up or what law I want to practice at this point; my priority is getting a job that I like (and that helps me pay off my debt!). I’d love to attend Michigan, but I’m a bit hesitant to take the debt on–I can’t quite figure out if the extra debt is worth it when the scholarship difference is $7k/year ($21k total) with Michigan tuition costing $4k more than Vanderbilt per year ($12k total). What insight can you give me that will put this into perspective? Thanks!

  • Jackson
    April 15, 2017 at 1:54pm

    Hey Dave,

    Thanks for all your advice on here. If you were in my shoes, would you take a full ride at Northwestern or accept near-sticker at UChicago or Columbia? I have deep roots in Chicago, and want to practice BL in C, NY, or DC. Thanks!

  • Dakota Wild
    April 15, 2017 at 6:20pm

    Hi Dave!

    I went to Penn’s ASW and met with the director of financial aid. You were 100% correct about being able to massage the message. He pretty well knew I had nothing competing with their award, but offered to try and tweak my package, and he did! It was very kind of him. I was a bit too nervous and awkward to ask for a specific amount of money (am going to need to work on that skill..), but he was able to increase my total award by about $7k. Woohoo!

    Thank you so much for your help and advice. I felt much more comfortable going into his office having heard your thoughts, and I wholly appreciate the time you took to help me. Thanks again!

  • Christine
    April 18, 2017 at 4:29pm

    Hello!

    I have been struggling with a very tough decision for a few days now, so I’m SO glad I stumbled across this blog!!

    So, first of all, some background: I live in Little Rock, AR, and my original intent to go to law school was to practice law in this area (kind of interested in getting involved in local politics; my ultimate goal is to eventually become a judge — but not exactly sure what kind of law I want to practice when I get out). I got accepted to the local law school here in downtown Little Rock, William H. Bowen School of Law, with almost a full-ride scholarship. I’m not even sure what they’re ranked, but it’s not in the top 100 — the benefit here is that I *think* this is where I want to practice, and I could get out of school with only maybe $10,000 or so in debt.

    However, I was also placed on the priority wait list at Emory (#22), and I went to visit the campus this past weekend. When speaking with the dean of admissions, he made it sound like I had a pretty good chance of getting in (they said they only didn’t admit one or two people from the priority wait list in recent years). If I do get the call that I’m admitted (which could be at any time), I will only have 48 hours to make my decision (!!!). Hence my anxiety about this.

    From visiting Emory law school and speaking to students/faculty, it is clear that this is a FAR superior law school than what I would have if I stayed at home, but I would most definitely come out of school with AT LEAST $100,000 in debt (if you combine the cost of tuition + the cost of moving and the cost of living in a new city), even with a decent scholarship (they typically don’t award more than half the cost of tuition, which is around $50K per year). The appeal here for me, I think, is that even though I am pretty sure I want to end up back in AR, I feel like I wouldn’t be limited to that if I got my education at a school that is recognized on the national level.

    The question I’m wrestling with is whether or not paying that much more for that superior education would be worth it? Do you think it would have the potential to open up more doors even here in Little Rock if I did return? Or is taking the money and going to school locally going to actually wind up establishing better connections for myself in the future?

    ALSO…not to complicate things further, but I also applied to Vanderbilt and am still waiting to hear back from them. Going to school there has always kind of been my dream, and it is a little bit closer to home (only about 4 hours instead of 8.5) — so if I got in there, even without a scholarship, I feel like that might be even harder to pass up. But I’m still faced with the same question: would it be worth it? And more importantly: am I completely stupid for passing on that kind of opportunity if I do decide to stay here in Little Rock?

    Thanks in advance!!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 18, 2017 at 9:54pm

    Hey Jackson,

    Thanks for the question, and thanks for letting me know this is helping! I’m fairly debt-averse, and a free ride at #10 ranked law school in the country is going to be hard to beat unless a higher-ranked school gives a free ride. So, if it were me, I’d take the money and run to Chicago 🙂

    By the way, congratulations on the incredible choices you have here. I know how hard it is to turn down names like UChicago and Columbia, so if you went that way it’s understandable. But regardless, congrats to you on submitting an obviously awesome application!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 18, 2017 at 10:37pm

    Hi Melissa,

    Thanks for the message! First off, while this may be a difficult choice, the nice thing is that you have two excellent options to select from, and so I don’t think you can make a bad decision here 🙂

    If we break down the numbers (excluding cost of living for now), then what you have told me so far reduces to the following:

    Vanderbilt: $54K a year – $27K scholarship = $27K/year = $81K over three years

    Michigan: $58K a year – $20K scholarship = $38K/year = $114K over three years

    So, as you clearly saw, those apparently small differences added up to a final $33K difference in tuition costs! Now, if we stop right there it looks like Vanderbilt has a significant edge. But Michigan is in Ann Arbor, a relatively small town, and Vanderbilt is in Nashville, a larger city (and an awesome one too, in case you’ve never been there). That makes a difference since the Cost of Living (COL) in Ann Arbor is generally less than Nashville. According to LST, it’s the following (includes books and living expenses):

    Nashville, TN Cost of Living: $24,910/yr = $74,730 total

    Ann Arbor, MI Cost of Living: $19,010/yr = $57,030 total

    That difference favors Ann Arbor by about $17.7K, and makes the final debt totals closer:

    Vanderbilt: Tuition $81K + COL $74,730 = $155,730

    Michigan: Tuition $114K + COL $57,030 = $171,030

    Thus, when COL is added in, the gap narrows to $15,300. That’s still significant, but much closer than before.

    Ok, now that we have a firm grasp of the numbers, the first consideration is for you to go look at some debt calculators (which you may have done, but I’ll repeat the advice here for the benefit of others). Check out:

    Michigan Law Debt Wiz Calculator: https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/debtwizard/Pages/Debt-Wizard-Calc… (which is extremely convenient since Michigan is one of the choices here)

    Washington Post Student Loan Debt Calculator: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/business/student-loan-debt-…

    Next, let’s look at the job outcomes at both schools to see if the extra $15.3K might be justifiable:

    *Vanderbilt*
    US News Ranking: 17
    ATL Ranking: 14

    Employment Score: 78.9%
    Under-employment Score: 13.5%

    Large Firm: 37.3%
    Small Firm: 4.3%
    Federal Clerkship: 9.7%
    Public Service: 11.9%

    *Michigan*
    US News Ranking: 8
    ATL Ranking: 13

    Employment Score: 85.0%
    Under-employment Score: 10.5%

    Large Firm: 50.8%
    Small Firm: 1.4%
    Federal Clerkship: 10.2%
    Public Service: 12.7%

    So, are those numbers enough to justify a slightly higher price tag? I think so. Overall employment results are better, especially at the more desirable large firm and clerkship jobs. Toss in some smaller but useful considerations (such as bar passage: Vandy 85.7% vs Michigan 93.7%) and I feel like there is a reasonable argument for thinking that Michigan is worth the extra $15.3K. That said, something you mentioned in your initial message also makes me feel that the extra money is warranted, mainly your comment that, “I’d love to attend Michigan.” So, that’s the school you want to go to, and since the costs are so close and the job outcomes are a bit better, I see no reason for you not to go ahead with it. If it is indeed the environment where you will be happiest, then that has an economic value since happy students typically perform better overall than unhappy or less happy students.

    So, to make a long story short, I think you have all the evidence and justification you need to support your desire to go to Michigan 🙂

    Please let me know what you decide to do–I’d love to know. Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 18, 2017 at 10:41pm

    Hey Dakota,

    That is *awesome* news! I’m so glad I was able to help. Now, we need to talk about my 10% agent’s fee, right? 😉

    I’m so happy that worked out for you, congratulations! And for everyone else reading, the lesson here is that it never hurts to ask. Just asking was worth $7000 here 🙂

  • Dave Killoran
    April 19, 2017 at 12:21am

    Hi Christine,

    Thanks for the message. Wow, having to make a major life-changing decision in only 48 hours is a tough spot to be in! So, knowing that you could be faced with that prospect, you need to do everything within your power right *now* to put all of the relevant information and decision-making tools at your finger tips. That way, when the time comes, you can move quickly and confidently to make the best decision for you. With that in mind, let’s talk about it.

    First, you need to assemble all of the financial information that you can, and be as detailed as possible. Start researching now what it would cost to live in Atlanta or Nashville (prepare for all outcomes, not just the most likely ones). Consider things like flights from those cities back home, or the cost of gas if you were to drive. Do that for each year and then multiply it out by three, for each year of law school. Get detailed! If you don’t have some of the info, ask. Put together a spreadsheet for each school and fill in every possible item. that way, instead of thinking that your debt would be at least 100K at Emory, you will be able to state the exact figure.

    Second, use some financial calculation tools to get a sense of what different debt levels look like. Here are two that you can start with, but there are others:

    Michigan Law Debt Wiz Calculator: https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/debtwizard/Pages/Debt-Wizard-Calc…

    Washington Post Student Loan Debt Calculator: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/business/student-loan-debt-…

    Put in different numbers to get a sense of monthly payments, how long it would take to pay off certain debt numbers, etc. This is an important step because it makes the debt real. It’s really easy in these conversations to toss number out like $53K or $181K and have them not feel real. A monthly debt service payment makes it feel a lot more real 🙂

    Ok, you should both of those things as soon as you can. Next, let’s place the schools in perspective by comparing them to each other. In that process I’ll use rankings from US News and Above the Law, and as much as I think rankings systems have natural flaws, they are useful because they reflect how other people perceive the schools.

    *Emory*
    USNews Rank: 22
    ATL Rank: 38

    *Vanderbilt*
    USNews Rank: 17
    ATL Rank: 14

    *Arkansas-Little Rock*
    USNews Rank: 134
    ATL Rank: Unranked (not in top 50)

    So, as you’ve noted, there’s a big difference in perceptions between Emory and Vandy vs UALR. You also sensed that when visiting Emory, since you said that “this is a FAR superior law school than what I would have if I stayed at home.”

    Next, as we will see, that rankings/perception difference has a significant impact on job prospects (all numbers drawn from LST Reports at https://www.lstreports.com/schools/):

    *Emory*
    USNews Rank: 22
    ATL Rank: 38

    Employment Score: 75.0%
    Under-employment score: 15.9%

    Large Firm: 26%
    Small Firm: 15.3%
    Federal Clerkship: 3.9%
    Public Service: 17.5%

    *Vanderbilt*
    USNews Rank: 17
    ATL Rank: 14

    Employment Score: 78.9%
    Under-employment score: 13.5%

    Large Firm : 37.3%
    Small Firm: 4.3%
    Federal Clerkship: 9.7%
    Public Service: 11.9%

    *Arkansas-Little Rock*
    USNews Rank: 134
    ATL Rank: Unranked (not in top 50)

    Employment Score: 44.4%
    Under-employment score: 23.8%

    Large Firm: 0.8%
    Small Firm: 22.2%
    Federal Clerkship: 0.8%
    Public Service: 23%

    I’m going to be honest: the Bowen numbers aren’t good. Not just a bit worse than Vandy or Emory, but a lot worse, and plain bad on their own without being compared to a T25 school. The one thing that gives me some pause is that their bar passage rate is 76.3%, which isn’t bad especially since the Arkansas bar is rumored to be somewhat harder than average.

    So then, one of your main questions was whether the extra debt is worth it. We don’t have the exact debt numbers so we can’t judge that yet, but from the above employment figures there is certainly a very reasonable chance that extra debt would indeed be worth it.

    The second main question you had involved your area of practice vs where you went to school. The general rule is that at a certain level, big names open doors no matter where you are. The Harvards of the world allow you to go to any city and be competitive. When we talk about Vanderbilt and Emory, we move down a step and one would say that both schools have more of a regional presence than a national presence. Of the two, Vanderbilt is closer to having a full-scale national presence than is Emory; Emory is decidedly more a southern region school than a national reputation school, but it is still well-known in legal circles. As a comparison, although the data was limited, only 22.2% of Vandy students stayed in Tennessee and 12.2% of students went to New York:

    • TN: 22.1%
    • NY: 12.2%
    • TX: 8.1%

    At Emory, 56.7% stayed in Georgia (much greater percent indicating stronger local ties as well as a stronger Atlanta legal market), and for New York it was also good, at 10.1%:

    • GA: 56.7%
    • NY: 10.1%
    • FL: 6.7%

    The numbers show the top 3 practice states for the grads of each school. The larger point is that both Emory and Vanderbilt are Top 25 schools with excellent reputations, and each has a strong enough reputation to allow their grads to go to the big legal arenas like NYC and compete for jobs. When you moved back to Little Rock, the reputation of each school will help you, and in many ways it might be worth it to have a degree from one of those schools as opposed to just being another UALR grad (as a reference, here are the Bowen numbers: AR: 71.2%; TX: 6.7%; MO: 2.9%. In other words, 4 out of 5 Bowen grads stay in the area, and thus they flood the market each year. One question here is do you want to be one of those many grads looking for a job or would you prefer to be coming in from out of town with a brighter, shinier degree? Who do you think looks more attractive to prospective employers?). Bottom line is that the fact that you hope to be in Little Rock is not a reason for you to automatically select Bowen. All else being equal, I’d personally take a degree from either Emory or Vandy vs Bowen as I think I’d prefer to stand out. And, of course, a Bowen degree basically limits you to Little Rock; a degree from Emory or Vanderbilt gives you many more options if something doesn’t open up for you in LR.

    The last thing I’ll suggest is for you to read all of the comments in this blog. In each case, the student has described the choice they are making, and then I reply and discuss the relevant factors. I want you to read each situation because it will help you see the types of choices and considerations other students faced, and it will also allow you to see the way I prioritized each factor. For example, I tend to be very debt-averse, but I’ll let better job prospects outweigh debt in certain cases. But, if the schools are fairly similar, then I’ll almost always go for the money (example, full ride at Northwestern vs full tuition at Chicago; I take Northwestern since it’s a top school and you graduate with no debt). In your case, the schools in play are very different, especially in the employment results. While I can’t see your final debt numbers, I can take a guess at them and I have a strong suspicion that if I were in your shoes I’d be leaning towards Emory/Vanderbilt.

    Ok, that’s a long post but it’s important for you to run the numbers here and think about this choice very carefully, and to do so as quickly as possible. Please let me know what you think, and good luck!

  • Taylor
    April 19, 2017 at 5:50pm

    Dave,

    Thanks so much for all your input into everyone’s predicaments. Here is mine:

    I’ve been accepted at UC Berkeley, UVA, GW, and BYU (all without scholarship, except for a small one at BYU). I’ve pretty much ruled out Berkeley and GW based on where I want to end up, where I think I’ll thrive, etc. and have narrowed it down to UVA and BYU. I am LDS (Mormon), so I know the kind of social environment I’d be signing up for at BYU and I’m okay with that. I’m also married with a 1 year-old, so we are taking that into account when looking at location, cost of living, etc. What I’m most concerned about is opportunity and debt. Below is what I’ve gathered based on the LST reports (not taking into account interest accrued over time).

    UVA
    No scholarship + $60,000 total cost of living = approx. $231,000 total debt
    Employment/underemployment scores: 84.5/12
    USNews Rank: 8
    ATL Rank: 6

    BYU
    $12,310 per year – 1/4 scholarship per year + $60,000 total cost of living = approx. $88,000 total debt
    Employment/underemployment scores: 55.6/27.8
    USNews Rank: 46
    ATL Rank: 40

    Cost of living in Provo and Charlottesville is comparable, so it’s not necessarily a large factor. However, it does help put things into perspective when looking at total debt.

    As far as career aspirations go, I am shooting for a federal clerkship and then biglaw for a few years in either NY or DC. I’m not completely sure what I’d like to do after that point, but I want to leave as many doors open as possible, especially since I’m interested in politics, government work, etc. BYU has a great alumni network, with connections all over the country, but I don’t know if it will be enough for me to land the jobs and experience I want. I’d definitely need to be in the top 10%, which may be difficult considering how competitive of an environment BYU law is. UVA, on the other hand, seems to be ideal for my career aspirations but I’m worried about going into that much debt.

    A lot of the advice I have been getting is from BYU alum and other Mormons. Most seem to say that unless one gets into HYS, they should go to BYU. I’m not so sure. That being said, I am very interested in hearing you weigh in on the matter! Thank you for your time.

  • Dave Killoran
    April 19, 2017 at 10:29pm

    Hi Taylor,

    Thanks for the question! This is a challenging decision, and I tend to think that no matter what you decide you’ll have some uncertainties over whether it was the right decision, and that is because there are positives on both sides here.

    While reading what you wrote, there were two things that jumped out at me, and the first was your statement that “I am shooting for a federal clerkship and then biglaw for a few years in either NY or DC.” If that was the only consideration, then obviously UVA would be the better choice as shown by large firm/clerkships percentages: UVA = 54.5%/15.8% vs BYU = 7.5%/2.3%. That’s 70% vs 10%, or a 7 times better chance at the path you seek at UVA. Basically, the two schools are on different planets as far as job placement, which is to be expected when one of them is a T10 school. I realize that BYU has a strong alumni network (and one that tends to have stronger personal relationships than many others), but it can’t compete with the sheer power of the UVA name.

    So, based on the above it would seem that I am advocating for UVA. But then the second consideration comes in, which your friends nicely summed up by saying, “unless one gets into HYS, they should go to BYU.” This is a saying you hear with some frequency, and the reason it is so popular is that there’s a degree of truth to it. The HYS schools are like the superpowers of the law school universe, and offer a name that opens doors no matter where you go. UVA, while outstanding, is a cut below those schools (maybe two cuts if you look at the CCN trio as its own level). You are rightly concerned about going into $231K of debt, and I personally have a hard time justifying taking that on. That is especially the case since BYU is generally considered one of the best deals in the law school world — a well-regarded school at a relatively reasonable price.

    So, that probably didn’t help much 🙂 I think that given your background and comfort with Provo and the BYU school environment, I’d probably say avoid the massive debt and go with BYU. It’s a very good school and the price is very nice. But I understand the siren call of a top-ranked school like UVA, and in one sense you are directly lowering your chances of obtaining the career path you seek if you choose BYU. Interestingly enough, in this case we can quantify that trade, as those improved job outcomes cost exactly $143,000 more. Is that too much to bear? I can’t say, but I would urge you to use something like the Michigan Law Debt Wiz Calculator: https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/debtwizard/Pages/Debt-Wizard-Calc… to get a sense of how that extra $143K affects monthly payments.

    Just as an aside, a decision like this has elements of game theory behind it, but one way to look at this is that UVA offers a wider array of outcomes, including both good and bad results. The potential job outcomes are seemingly better on the top end, but if things didn’t go well the debt load could result in some very negative results. BYU, on the other hand, could be characterized as resulting in a narrower set of outcomes, with few potential bad outcomes but also fewer topline results. You could consider this the choice of locking in a more reliable set of middle-range outcomes (and again, this is generalizing; you could go to BYU and have a result that is the best possible one for you) vs a more risk-taking approach that increases the possibilities at both ends. If it helps, you should consider what type of person and risk-taker you are—does one of those two characterizations immediately feel more comfortable to you?

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Christine
    April 20, 2017 at 6:46pm

    Hi, Dave!

    Thanks so much for your detailed & well-researched response! I really appreciate the amount of time and effort you put into giving everyone a personalized answer.

    I am in the process of making the spreadsheet — it’s definitely helping to see everything laid out next to each other. I also checked out the debt calculators, and wow, you weren’t kidding. Seeing the amount of money my future self will have to pay back (and how much money I’ll have to make to be able to afford it) is sobering, to say the least!

    Though I still have A LOT to think about, I *think* I am still leaning towards taking the offer from Emory or Vanderbilt if I get the chance. Despite the money, it really seems like the kind of opportunity that I would regret not taking.

    Thanks again for all of your advice — this has been a HUGE help for me!

  • Dakota Wild
    April 20, 2017 at 7:58pm

    Can I get you that 10% agent’s fee when I get a job in 3 years? 🙂

    Really though, one 15 minute conversation and an email equated to $7k. I’d say that’s the highest “pay rate” I’ve ever made 🙂

    (ok, ok, I didn’t get paid so much as I got discounted, but still! $7k in 15 minutes, is fine. by. me.!)

  • Dave Killoran
    April 21, 2017 at 12:47am

    Hey Dakota,

    Ok, it’s a deal (but I want interest too, lol!). Seriously though, I’m really pleased for you that this all worked out, and it’s a great example of how sometimes if you just give it a shot, it can pay big dividends. As they say, it never hurts to ask.

    Congrats again, and best of luck to you as you move forward!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 21, 2017 at 12:56am

    Hi Christine,

    Thanks for letting me know this helped you! That’s why I do this and enjoy it so much.

    I’m really glad to hear you are going through all the expenses and looking carefully at each option. When the time comes, that will give you confidence to make the best choice for yourself.

    Please let me know how things play out–I’m really interested to see where you finally end up. Thanks and good luck!

  • Alex
    April 21, 2017 at 7:41pm

    Hi! I currently have a full ride offer at Case Western law school, a sticker price offer at UCONN and am waitlisted at Boulder, UMD, Northeastern, and Temple. I really want to go into either public policy or corporate BIGLAW once I graduate and I was wondering if I’m not too thrilled about my options would I be better off taking the full to case and try to transfer out if I don’t like it or wait a year and retake the LSAT.

  • Dave Killoran
    April 22, 2017 at 12:02am

    Hey Alex,

    Interesting set of choices! Would you mind breaking down each school’s ranking/finances/employment numbers in the manner I’ve done above? That’s where we start with every discussion simply so the numbers are as clear as possible to you. Here are the links we use to obtain the info:

    https://www.lstreports.com/schools

    https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings

    http://abovethelaw.com/careers/2016-law-school-rankings/

    And here’s an example of how it looks for one sample school:

    Florida
    Tuition non-discounted (67k) – 9k scholarship = 58k debt
    employment/unemployment scores 76.2/16.2
    USNews: #41 ATL: 30

    I’ll sometimes go deeper if there are specific practice states or job types in play, and since you mentioned biglaw, if you could, add in the job type percentages from LST Reports (such as Large Firm, Small Firm, Fed Clerkship percentage, etc) as so:

    Large Firm 11.2%
    Small Firm 27.4%
    Federal Clerkship 2.6%
    Public Service 16.2%

    Once you have that info posted, I have a feeling we’ll start to see some of the choices rise to the top and others fall–such as the full ride at Case will knock out UConn pretty easily 🙂 I keep a close eye on this blog, so when I see you post back, I’ll come back in as quickly as I can and provide some further thoughts on the school choices.

    Ok, while we wait for that, let’s talk transferring. Here’s my basic rule for transferring: There’s no guarantees when it comes to transferring, so don’t attend a school unless you’d be happy graduating from the school. That said, the reason there are no guarantees is because your ability to transfer will rest on your first year grades and the quality of the school you are transferring from. The grades are huge, and that can be a challenge because the typical 1L law school grade is derived solely from the final. So, nail the final and doors start to open up. But if you have one bad day or exam, then it’s over. And law school is so unusual that even if you’ve been a great student your whole life there is no guarantee that that will continue in law school.

    Now, let’s say you go out and do quite well, and your class rank is high. From there, it depend son how high your rank is as well as the school you attend. In general, the rule is that the better the school, the more room you have with your grades. For example, if you were trying to transfer to #10 Duke, if you were coming from #23 Minnesota you could transfer over with slightly lower grades than if you were coming from #51 Baylor. In other words, the lower ranked your starting school is, the higher your grades need to be. And, past evidence shows that at a certain point, the top schools stop taking students. For example, Harvard just doesn’t take transfer students from the bottom tier of law schools. However, when you slide down the rankings scale, it loosens up. So, when you talk about transferring up, we have to consider not just grades but that starting school as well (that said, Case would allow you to transfer into the T14, maybe even higher if you absolutely killed it on the grades).

    Last note, if you transferred out of Case, you lose the scholarship at that point. You probably know that, but it’s worth mentioning here for others.

    Thanks and I look forward to hearing back from you!

  • Brooke
    April 24, 2017 at 11:46pm

    OK. Pulled the trigger. Selected Columbia. When faced with my UVA offer and promised my enrollment, they came up with $22,000, about 60% of what UVA offered. I totally get the economics of a loan that I will carry with me, but I am also cognizant of loan forgiveness at Columbia. And, I want my degree to speak “volumes,” as you say. It’s going to be with me for my whole career, and I just think I’ll be prouder of having gone and hopefully not done too shabbily at a school such as Columbia Law. So, I’m pleased with my choice. I think if Columbia had come up empty-handed, it would have been much harder.

  • Brit J
    April 26, 2017 at 7:39pm

    Hi Dave,

    Thanks for your advice. I have a little more information now as I am still deciding and GW added a small scholarship. I am just between GW and W&M now. How accurate are the cost from the lstreports site? I ask because I did my own calculations using the estimate cost from both schools and here is what I got:

    GW: School est. COA= $85,900/yr
    My est. COA= 70,500/yr -8,000 (scholly) – 7,000 (grant)= $55,500/yr
    My breakdown:
    1,500 books and supplies
    3,000 personal expenses
    6,000 room + board (living at home and maybe helping out a little)
    2,000 transportation
    58,000 tuition

    Est debt. $167,000. I have not factored in working during the summer and possibly breaks.

    W&M: School est. COA= $60,700/yr
    My est. COA= 60,500/yr – 25,000 (scholly) = $35,500/yr
    My breakdown:
    1,500 books and supplies
    5,000 personal expenses and transportation (traveling home some weekends or moving)
    12,000 room + board (through summer)
    42,000 tuition

    Est debt. $106,500.

    I would like to attend GW and I think I could figure out a way to make that work. I guess my question is would it be worth it to choose GW over W&M?

    Thanks for your input Dave.

  • Dave Killoran
    April 27, 2017 at 12:17am

    Hi Brit,

    I think this comes down to how you feel about it, and on that count I believe you know what you really want. Since regardless of the choice you make you will be going into six figure debt, I believe that if you want to go to GW then I think you should go with that decision. Part of my reasoning is that you’ll probably perform better there since people tend to do better in environments they like and enjoy.

    One other thought: there is only a certain point up to which anything I say is valid because my analysis is all numbers driven. But, I’m not the one going to law school and the whole process is really a human one 🙂 You are the one going, and only you know what is best for you! So, if you’ve looked through the numbers and feel comfortable with what you have (and I see no reason to doubt the accuracy of what you posted) and your conclusion is GW, I’m fine with that and see no reason for you to try to force yourself into wanting to go to W&M.

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks and congratulations!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 27, 2017 at 12:35am

    Hi Brooke,

    That’s great that they came up with some money–it just goes to show that you should ALWAYS try to negotiate with a school if you have even one other good offer. And, of course, congratulations on attending Columbia! It is obviously an amazing school and you can’t go wrong with a degree from there. I’m so pleased that things worked out for you 🙂

    Thanks for letting me know which way you went, and again, congrats to you!!

  • Hilary Leighty
    May 02, 2017 at 1:31am

    Hi Dave-

    I would love to hear your opinion on my situation:

    I am currently waitlisted at Wake Forest and Emory and have a full ride offer from Indiana McKinney. I am from Indiana and comfortable working in the area after graduation.

    Assuming if I get off either waitlist that I am not offered $$, do you think either choice is worth sticker as opposed to a full ride at McKinney?

    Also, thanks so much for the power score books! I don’t think I would have a full ride offer without them!

  • Mike M
    May 02, 2017 at 1:50am

    Hey Dave,

    Just an update on my situation… FSU got back to me and I’m accepted with a 13.5k scholarship/yr which would make it 20,000 debt over 3 yrs.. besides this.. still considering St. Johns and UF… thoughts?…thanks

    Florida tuition non-discounted (67k) – 9k scholarship = 58k debt
    employment/unemployment scores 76.2/16.2
    USNews: #41 ATL: 30

    St. Johns tuition non-discounted (165k) – 141k scholarship = 24k debt
    employment/unemployment scores 69.8/15.3
    USNews: #72 ATL: Unranked

    Florida State tuition non discounted (61.5k) – 40.5k scholarship = 21k debt
    employment/unemployment score 71.4/8.3
    USNews Ranking #48 ATL: 37

  • Dave Killoran
    May 04, 2017 at 4:20pm

    Just an fyi to everyone who has asked a question here–I have some current schedule conflicts and so I won’t be able to reply for several days. But I will reply to everyone 🙂

  • Dave Killoran
    May 04, 2017 at 4:20pm

    Just an fyi to everyone who has asked a question here–I have some current schedule conflicts and so I won’t be able to reply for several days. But I will reply to everyone 🙂

  • Drew
    May 07, 2017 at 5:22pm

    Hi, Dave! I would greatly appreciate your advice on my law school circumstances:

    I am currently in the Southeastern Michigan/Detroit area, and I plan on staying in the area, as I have strong local ties. Moreover, I do NOT have lofty aspirations for after law school (no clerkships, not interested in big law, etc.). I currently have a full ride to Wayne State University Law School (ranked #100 according to US News) and a partial scholarship ($15,000) to the University of Michigan (ranked #8 according to US News). Michigan’s tuition is $55,000 ($40,000 with my scholarship), and I estimate $3,000 per year for books, parking, and other expenses. And because I have a full ride at Wayne State, I estimate only $1,000-$2,000 for books and other expenses.

    I received my undergraduate degree at U of M, Ann Arbor, where I was greatly intimidated and made anxious by the extremely competitive environment. However, I graduated in the top 3%, so I know I can handle it. I am also currently in debt from my time there.

    I would love to hear your take on whether I should go to a Top 10 school or go to a moderately respected regional school–Wayne has the largest legal alumni base in Michigan, as only 11% of U of M Law grads stay in Michigan. Furthermore, as I understand, going to a national school (U of M) prepares you to go out of state and obtain jobs in big law areas (DC, Chicago, NY), whereas, if you attend a regional school, it might prepare you more generally for practice in the state in which you attend law school. Should I throw away a huge opportunity to attend a Top 10 school, and the probability of getting an overall better job in MI (but end up close to $180,000 in debt with interest) or attend a regional school, debt-free, with possibly no good job prospects?

    Finally, if I attend U of M, I will start in summer (June), causing me to graduate in December. What are your thoughts on this as far as bar prep and jobs go? Thank you!

  • Dave Killoran
    May 14, 2017 at 11:20pm

    Hi Drew,

    Thanks for the question! Well, this is more or less the quintessential question behind the blog title here: should you go for the free ride at a lower-ranked school or go into debt for the prestige of a highly ranked name? The answer for each person is different, and as I’ve spoken with all the students in this comments section I’ve found that each person has slightly different ways that they value and analyze the elements in play. Nobody likes debt, and if you’ve read the other discussions you’ve seen me repeatedly recommend that applicants considering going into debt should look at the repayment schedules and truly understand what $150K-$250K of debt looks like on a monthly basis. It can be significant and overwhelming, but you have to face the reality of the financial consequence of choosing that path. For some students the answer is that it’s too risky but for many others it’s not. I know that going to the debt-free school represents a safer pathway in a financial sense, because we can see a black and white difference in the monetary obligations that those individuals bear upon graduation. But it also often represents a demonstrably lower chance of securing the so called elite jobs in big firms and clerking for judges. This is where your goals and aspirations really do play a major role. For example, do you want to be a law professor? Then your chances increase more as the rank increases at the school you attend. In your case, I don’t get the biglaw/clerkship pathway as being something you have your heart set on. Will Michigan give you a better shot at any job compared to Wayne? Yeah, to be honest it will, and that goes even for those in-state jobs. Plus, so many of those Michigan grads leave the state because they can; the name gives them the clout to do so (and it also pulls in many more people form out of state than Wayne, which is also why they leave upon graduation).

    I think your decision needs to be driven by your comfort with these schools. Which one do you think will make you happier? Both will be competitive–just because Wayne is ranked lower doesn’t mean that there won’t be pressure in class to perform or on the exams to ace them–but if you feel Wayne is more to your liking, then you get a free education at a school you like. I don’t know you well enough to really contribute to this decision (I wish I did–it would be easier, right? 🙂 This decision has to be driven by deep introspection on your part about what you want out of law school and what you are willing to pay for the experience. Ask yourself how you feel about those monthly payments, and how you would feel about passing up the big name school. Talk to the people who know you best and ask their opinion. they can’t decide for you, but maybe they’ll help you best understand your personal values and how those relate to the costs involved here.

    Please let me knwo if that helps, and good luck–I’d love to know what you ultimately decide!

  • Dave Killoran
    May 15, 2017 at 3:36pm

    Hi Mike,

    My apologies for not replying earlier. Between St. Johns and FSU you have two good options in the two geographic areas that interest you. I’d personally go with FSU because it has a higher rank and is slightly less, but given the relative similarity of the two, I think it more depends on where you want to live for law school as well as your practice location targets. Either way, your choices are solid and you are in a strong position. Congrats!

  • Dave Killoran
    May 15, 2017 at 3:40pm

    Hi Hilary,

    I’m very debt averse, so I don’t think either Wake or Emory would be able to compete with the full ride. I kind of get the feeling you feel the same way, and a free education is just really hard to ignore. Usually it takes a very big name to overcome that debt burden, and we don’t have that here.

    I’m glad the books helped–thanks for letting me know!

  • Claire Lee
    May 16, 2017 at 1:03pm

    Hi Dave,
    I am in a very tough situation right now deciding between two schools. Both are not in the top tier, but it is between Florida State University ranked from upper 40 to lower 50 and Louisiana State University ranked upper 80 to low 90.
    I am from Tampa and am currently working at a personal injury firm so I have made some ties with attorneys this way. I attended University of Florida for my undergrad and was not very dedicated coming out with a lower but not terrible GPA, but worked really hard and made a very good LSAT score.
    I have been offered full tuition for LSU(out of state tuition) and 50% at FSU(in state tuition). This would be about a 30k difference in loans that I would be taking out, as I am not using any of my savings to finance rent, living expenses etc(although rent, gas and other expenses are cheaper in LA). Although I am lucky and have no debt from undergrad, I also do not have a very extensive savings. I was accepted off of the waitlist for FSU so I was unsuccessful when I tried to negotiate into getting offered more of a scholarship.
    I am interested in pursuing family or disability rights law, but am not positive where I will end up practicing as my husband is still in school at LSU as an engineer and can be placed anywhere. I have looked into the civil law that LSU teaches and have found that I could avoid most civil law courses and stick to common law. Both have family law clinics that I could be apart of and other organizations that would allow me to get involved in family law. I also have ties with a family judge in Baton Rouge so would have connections for internships etc, but would be interested in coming back to FL for the summers to possibly intern so I would also have ties there in case I was wanting to come back to FL to practice when I graduated.
    What is your opinion on choosing the full ride vs. 10k a year for a school ranked just a little higher but not top tier.

  • Claire Lee
    May 16, 2017 at 1:31pm

    I would also like to add I don’t have any big lofty goals after graduation,I do not want to be a law professor, or go into big law or clerkships, I would just like to work at a private firm working with family law as I studied family, youth and community sciences for undergrad. I have possibly thought about wanting to become a judge or having a goal to reach for after practicing for a little while.

    Also as I mentioned my husband that leaves the possibility of moving to Texas, Louisiana, or other big engineering states but also the possibility of just staying in FL if a good enough job presents itself to him, so state does not matter. Although I am born and raised in FL and my family is located in Tampa, so I do enjoy staying here.

  • Dave Killoran
    May 16, 2017 at 5:39pm

    Hey Claire,

    Thanks for the question! That’s an interesting situation you are in and the good news is that I think either choice would work just fine, so I don’t think you can go wrong with here 🙂

    First, as far as practice and alumni, I think LSU would be just as good as FSU for what you want to do and the connections you have made. Yes, FSU will have a deeper alumni base that could be of assistance in Florida, but it sounds like you are already on your way as far as knowing attorneys and making certain connections. Then, since it may be that you end up in Louisiana or even on the other side in Texas, LSU has its advantages as well. So overall, it’s somewhat of a wash for me with the alumni bases.

    And so it comes down to the classic “money vs a higher ranking” battle. Personally I believe I would take the money since it is tangible–you know you won’t be graduating with the same debt that you’d incur via FSU, and that has an actual value because you don’t start out in a hole. Yes, FSU has a better ranking, but it’s not really all that much better, and given the vagaries of rankings it could very well be that FSU falls and LSU rises in the next few years (or, honestly, the reverse could occur–that’s the problem with rankings. LSU was #72 in 2014 then tumbled to #94 and then moved back up to #82 in 2016 before going down to #96 this year).

    I guess for me LSU is close enough to Florida and family so that the money becomes extremely appealing, and enough in my opinion to offset the better rank that FSU currently sports. However, if you disagreed I could easily understand that since this is all about personal preferences!

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Claire Lee
    May 16, 2017 at 5:57pm

    Thanks Dave! that is very helpful, this is personal not facts but its hard to go against what my parents believe is right after they have supported you your whole life, but I am financing this so it is my own decision.

    My other questions is since I am from Florida and there is a large possibility this is where I would end up also, do you believe in going where you think you will practice, especially since FL bar is so difficult? Or do you think this is not as big of a deal?

  • tim Allen
    May 24, 2017 at 8:48pm

    Hi Dave,

    Thank you so much for all your help. I got into GW law with 20k per year. I am really excited about GW, however, should I be concerned about their rankings drop as of late, from #20 to #30 in the last couple of years? Would this drop have an impact on employers decisions in respect to GW law graduates? And also what is your overall view of GW as a law school? Thank you for you time!

  • Dave Killoran
    May 24, 2017 at 10:50pm

    Hi Tim,

    I like GW a lot, and I like DC even more, especially as a city to learn law in. So, I think it is a great combination and you should enjoy yourself there!

    I wouldn’t worry about the rankings movement. This is natural, and if you study what happens, at times schools have fallen and then risen, as well as the reverse. A school like GW knows how important the rankings are, and it won’t be lost on them that they need to get back up there, and they’ll put in the resources to make that happen. So I expect to see movement the other way soon enough.

    It also won’t affect employers at this point. Yes, if they keep falling it will be and issue, but right now the movement is too small to be an issue.

    Congrats on the acceptance, and go have a great time!

  • Kelly
    June 06, 2017 at 7:21am

    Hi Dave,

    I’m trying to decide between Vandy (with 81K scholarship in total) and Cornell (at sticker). I want to practice in New York after graduation and considering that I’m an international student, I feel that I should go to Cornell because of its international recognition in case I must move back to Asia later. I’m okay with living in the middle of nowhere so location is not really an issue. The thing is Vandy seems to place pretty well in New York as well as other places in the US so if my goal is to do biglaw in New York after graduation, both Vandy and Cornell seem to be good choices. Since Vandy is offering me a scholarship, too, it takes some of my burden off. But Cornell is still better ranked, places most of their students in NYC, has more courses that I’m interested in taking than Vandy, and their grading curve is much higher. I want to make up my mind if all of that is worth paying 100K+ more and would really appreciate your opinion. Thanks in advance!

  • Dennis Lee
    June 08, 2017 at 8:28pm

    Hi Dave,
    You have offered some great advice on this site and was hoping you could opine on my daughter’s situation. She graduated in 2016 with very good grades and decided late in the year to try to apply to law school. Her original intention was to use the year as a practice run and then apply seriously for admission for the fall of 2018. Well, with very little study she did well on the LSAT (lower 160’s) and applied to 8 schools to see how it would go. It turns out that she got full ride offers to 6 (Ohio State, American, ASU, U of Arizona, Wake Forest & Case), ½ to George Washington and a decline from Duke.

    It has come down to Ohio State vs waiting another year and trying to improve her LSAT score to get into a T14. She’s torn between practicing in DC and Ohio, but looks at the prestige a T14 can offer and potential opportunities it affords. She also is very conscious of the enormity of debt that may coming with getting into a T14 without significant scholarship. She originally was interested in GW but because Ohio State and GW are ranked the same thought the Ohio State offer was better.

    So looking for your thoughts on likelihood of improving her LSAT score to get into a T14, and starting a career in DC if she attends Ohio State. The Ohio State offer seems too good to pass, but she also doesn’t want to settle if there is greater potential at a T14. Also waiting another years seems to be putting off the inevitable. Thank you!

  • Dave Killoran
    June 10, 2017 at 12:14am

    Hi Kelly,

    This is a bit tougher for me, and I would first off recommend that you do the basic analysis that I’ve done in prior posts. That should always be your first step because citing numbers in a vacuum–such as an 81K scholarship–doesn’t give a fully-realized idea of what the debt involved actually is. You need to know exactly what the final number as far as your debt at each school is. And by the way, this isn’t for me–it’s for you. As I’ve said multiple times in the comments here, it really helps when *you* see what the monthly payment is for each school after you graduate. This is especially the case here since I don’t have any info about your financial situation, so the evaluation on this point has to be done entirely by you.

    Ok, that said, this comes down to a balance between that monthly debt number and what kind of name recognition is worth the extra fee for you in NYC and then possibly later in international job markets. Vandy is a great school in one of the coolest towns in this country, but if you are trying to get a job in a city where they don’t know Vandy, then it isn’t worth as much to you. This is why it’s good that you are looking at the job numbers–these tell the truest picture of how a school’s reputation works. I get the feeling that Vandy’s placement power surprises you a bit, but this is why you want to look at the stats and not go on perceptions.

    As far as intentional placement, I can’t speak to that as much since Asian markets are quite varied and I’m not a specialist on placements in the various cities, and also because you are talking about that in several years time, not now. Also, the classes offered have little to no effect on my recommendations simply because so many students find that once in law school their interests turn out to be far different than what they expected (and because most law school courses are basically the same in the first year plus, meaning a high percentage of your legal education is the same at each school).

    In the final analysis, I unfortunately don’t have enough information from you to give solid advice here. Your financials, your job location preferences and the chances of you staying here vs Asia, and even how you feel about Nashville all are blind spots to me right now. They aren’t to you though, and i would weigh each of those options and then decide if it’s worth the extra money per month that you have to pay to go to Cornell. Only you know the answer there, but if you approach it systematically and with stats, I think you can do a pretty good job of deciding 🙂

    Good luck!

  • Dave Killoran
    June 10, 2017 at 12:33am

    Hi DFennis,

    I’ve just returned form a lengthy trip, and I couldn’t quite get to your question today, but I will post an answer tomorrow. I will say that this is all going to come down to her waiting an extra year vs her career aspirations. the Duke rejection more or less sums up where she stands right now: she’s set with OSU (great school, btw) but her numbers aren’t good enough for the T14. Could she increase her LSAT score with an extra year? Sounds like it. Is it worth it? That I’m not sure about–it’s a long time, but we do know that a higher LSAT score will not only increase her acceptances but bring more money as well. So the balance becomes an extra year (and I don’t take that lightly) vs where she wants to go and what kind of school she needs for that. I’ll talk more about it tomorrow.

    Thanks!

  • Kelly
    June 10, 2017 at 4:25pm

    Thank you very much for the response! I did my research and tuition + expenses comes down to 78K/year for Vandy and 85K/year for Cornell. So with my scholarship offer from Vandy, I’d be paying around 153K in total whereas for Cornell, I’d be paying around 255K. Honestly, finance isn’t a problem even though I may feel the psychological burden that I’m investing so much into a three-year education.I’m putting employment post-grad as my priority. I definitely want to live and practice in New York City at least for a few years after graduating before I move elsewhere.

    At the same time, I feel fine imagining myself living in Nashville, and I do appreciate the scholarship offer, and I’ve been hearing good things about the people but mixed opinions on their grading policy. Cornell seems more transparent about their grading policy and since they place well in NYC, I’m okay with paying in full at Cornell but also okay with going with Vanderbilt. What other things should I consider in order to make a decision???

  • Dennis Lee
    June 10, 2017 at 5:16pm

    Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. Definitely would like to hear your thoughts on waiting a year. She concerned about opportunities offered at Ohio State. I’ve told her to reconsider George Washington if that is a concern, but would be interested in your opinion on Ohio State. Waiting a year just doesn’t make sense to me.

    Thanks again!

  • Dave Killoran
    June 10, 2017 at 6:20pm

    Hi Kelly,

    Thanks for the reply! If finance isn’t a problem, then it comes down to where you want to go after law school and your personal preferences. The set of factors involved in any decision like this is very personal once you get past money, and from your comments I can see that you’ve done your due diligence. So I think you should trust what your heart is telling you.

    You’ve been clear that practicing in NYC is a priority, and I’m sure you know that recently Cornell placed about 56% of grads into NY whereas Vandy placed about 16%. At the same time, the percentage of Cornell grads placed into large firms was also significantly higher, although we have to account for the fact that placing in NYC makes it more likely that you are also placing at a larger firm. But it is clear that if NYC is your goal, then Cornell gives you better access and options for that than does Vandy.

    If you can handle the winters in Ithaca, and generally like the campus and school environment, then there aren’t too many other factors that would be relevant enough to dissuade you from attending Cornell. You’ve clearly looked at things like grading and course options, as well as finances, location, rankings, and placement, so I think you’ve covered the main bases here as far as a decision. Thus, I have no objection to you going with your gut feeling here about Cornell.

    I hope that helps, and best of luck to you in law school!

  • Dave Killoran
    June 10, 2017 at 6:49pm

    Hi Dennis,

    Thanks for the reply! The first place I’m going to refer you to is the LST Report on OSU: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/osu/. This gives a very nice thumbnail sketch on how the school performs when it comes to job placement, salaries, and bar passage. You should also compare that to GW: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/gw/.

    The comparison between those two would suggest to me that the full ride at OSU is generally the better choice. First, it’s free, whereas at GW she’d be walking out with a six figure debt load. Second, in comparison to GW, OSU also performs well in employment, which is really important to me when evaluating offers. The downside is that OSU places a LOT of grads into Ohio (80%), so her options for practice would most likely be in-state unless she is at the very top of her class (which is not easy at all to guarantee). GW places about half of their grads in DC and about 10% in NYC, so there is a bit broader feel to the options when you attend GW. However, you mentioned that she’s torn between DC and Ohio as practice locations, so for her it may be that this isn’t a big issue. To me, this is a critical point, and question she *really* needs to ask herself is: where do I want to practice and what type of job do I want? If Ohio is great, then take the money at OSU and don’t look back! If she’s a “bit” interested in DC or “kinda” would like to have the option, then again I’d say go with OSU. However, if she’s adamant that she wants a big-city practice or for sure wants biglaw, that’s when other options aside from OSU come into play.

    If the latter is the case (and I suspect it isn’t based on your initial comments), then she has either a half scholarship at GW or the option of a year off for a try at a higher LSAT score. The decision factors involved get very personal here, and aren’t of the type that I can easily evaluate. Given her performance with minimal prep, I suspect she can raise her LSAT score further, which as I’ve mentioned earlier would open doors at more highly-ranked schools as well as increase her financial aid packages. The cost is the extra year off, which is a huge cost! However, that cost is weighed against the debt load from GW, and through that prism I don’t think the cost looks so bad. Let’s say she could raise her score into the upper 160s. At that point, her aid package at a place like GW might well be increased a full ride, meaning she’d save something like $150K overall. In that light, taking a year off actually would make some sense. If she could do even better, then perhaps she’d be looking at great aid packages at even better schools, meaning even more would be saved (or gained, it depends on how you look at it).

    Thus, in my opinion, her situation reduces to two primary questions:

    1. This is the question I posed above, namely, “where does she want to practice and what type of job does she want?” Depending on her answer, then she’d either accept the OSU offer, or alternately consider my second question.

    2. This question only gets asked if the answer the first question shows that Ohio isn’t where she wants to end up, and her opinion on that is *very* strong. The question is: “How much better could she do on the LSAT if she had another year to prepare for the exam?” If the answer is, “I don’t think I can improve much,” then take the OSU offer and don’t worry about this option. But if the answer is that she believes with good reason that she could do 5-6 points better (or more), then she should consider retaking the exam, and then re-applying, especially to schools in the T14 and schools with good rankings in larger cities (such as GW or Georgetown).

    I think this is an interesting situation, and although I’m generally anti-taking a year off, you can see how in her case it might actually make some sense. But for that to be the case, she has to be fully committed to what she wants because that course of action requires considerable time and effort. It could very well be worth it both economically and job-wise, but it’s not a path for the faint of heart.

    Please let me know what she says–I’m really interested in hearing what she think about the options. Thanks!

  • tiffany Han
    June 13, 2017 at 5:48am

    Hi Dave!

    I’m currently trying to decide between UT Austin and Georgetown. I would only be paying about 50% tuition at UT Austin and basically sticker at Georgetown. I’m not entirely sure which legal field I’d like to study/work in, so my main concern is that I wouldn’t have as many opportunities to explore internships/jobs at UT as I would at Georgetown. I am quite interested in human rights, but I expect to work at a big law firm for a few years after graduating. I’m from California but wouldn’t be opposed to working in NYC for a while; I’m not in a rush to return to LA/SF. As much as I love Austin (and am attracted to the low cost of living), I don’t know how long I would like to live and work there for. If I go to Georgetown, I’d likely try to find a job in NYC after graduating, but I’m worried the competition will be stiff because the market is so saturated by Top 10 schools in the region. I’m still waitlisted at NYU, Columbia, & UPenn, but if I commit to Georgetown this week, I’d have to withdraw those applications. Any advice would be much appreciated!

  • Kelly
    June 13, 2017 at 6:11am

    Thank you very much for the advice! I’ll have to make a decision soon 🙂

  • Dave Killoran
    June 13, 2017 at 4:30pm

    Hi Tiffany,

    I’ll be honest, this isn’t a tough choice if it was me. I’d take the 50% off and go to Texas. It’s a great school, and this year finally edged ahead of Gtown in the rankings.

    Jobs-wise, your lack of certainty about your future further strengthens my idea that Texas is a solid choice since Tex grads place pretty much everywhere, and Texas even outperforms Gtown on Clerkships. It’s also notable that the 1L class at Texas is much smaller than Georgetown, which is huge (576 1Ls at GULC in 2016 vs 295 at Texas).

    I certainly understand the appeal of Gtown–I was born in the area and later went to high school there. DC is the center of our political world and anyone with a legal interest has to be enticed by being just around the from the SCOTUS.

    I suppose the bottom line in my opinion is that Texas and Georgetown are seen as very similar schools, but in this case you get Texas for half the cost. I’d personally take the money but you need to do what feels best for you.

    I’d love to hear what you decide. Thanks!

  • Tiffany
    June 14, 2017 at 3:26pm

    Hey Dave,

    I ended up e-mailing Gtown and received 1/3 off tuition! Do you think UT’s current ranking is really that significant when Gtown’s has historically been higher? I feel like those rankings are always changing, so I can’t tell how reliable they are each year. Just hoping Gtown’s doesn’t continue in the wrong direction, while UT’s continues to go up!

  • Dave Killoran
    June 14, 2017 at 7:25pm

    Hi Tiffany,

    Great job! I don’t think the rankings much matter here as both schools have generally be stable for a while. No one can predict the future of course, and Gtown does have a massive 1L class but I don’t see them dropping out of the Top 20.

    I didn’t base my recommendation on ranking, though. I based it on cost, so even though you received 1/3 off (and it’s really telling to me that a simple email resulted in that decrease), UT is still cheaper and so if it was me I’d still take UT. But this is your decision, not mine, and you have to do what you think is best 🙂

  • Dennis Lee
    June 19, 2017 at 5:34pm

    Dave,

    Great additional comments about her choice. Well after a week of mulling things over, she has decided to take the offer at Ohio State. She’s not completely sure she wants to end up in DC to practice but, in order to keep her options open there, she plans to continue to cultivate relationships that she made during undergraduate school and in the past year in working there.
    Ohio State also offers a summer program in DC which she will look into. I think a lot of her decision came down to a sure thing at Ohio State vs an uncertain path and delaying that path for another year.

    Thanks again!

  • Dave Killoran
    June 19, 2017 at 10:53pm

    Hi Dennis,

    A solid decision on her part, and one that makes complete sense to me. I wish her the best of luck! Thanks also for letting me know the final decision–I really appreciate that!

  • Corey Lopez
    June 22, 2017 at 9:21pm

    I’m currently debating on Chicago Kent College of Law or the University of Illinois College of Law, Kent has offered me a full tuition scholarship and U of I has given me a 60% scholarship. Not sure if I want to do big law. But U of I is ranked 31 and Kent is around 70. Not sure which one to pick. I know U of I has better job placement numbers, but its hard to pass on a free legal education. Assuming I want to practice in Chicago, which one seems like the better option?

  • Dave Killoran
    June 25, 2017 at 7:59pm

    Hi Corey,

    Thanks for the question! Could you possibly do the basic financial breakdown for Illinois that I’ve done elsewhere in my answers here? That would really help me understand your exact financial picture, and then I can make a much better assessment of your options. I’d generally tend toward the free ride since the two schools aren’t that far apart in rankings, but it would be helpful to know the *exact* debt load you’d be looking at upon graduation from Illinois, and the job figures from LSTReports.com for each school wouldn’t hurt either. Just to be sure, it looks like this:

    Florida tuition non-discounted (67k) – 9k scholarship = 58k debt
    LST employment/unemployment scores 76.2/16.2
    Ranking: USNews: #41 ATL: 30

    Thanks!

  • corey Lopez
    July 06, 2017 at 4:46pm

    Dave,

    Thanks for the response!

    Kent= 0 debt
    LST employment/unemployment scores 55/10.7. However the underemployment is 22.7%.
    Ranking US News: #92 ATL: not in to 50

    UIUC= 39k – 21k = 18k per year= 54k debt after 3 years.
    LST employment/unemployment 78.3/8.4. Underemployment 10.8.
    Ranking US news: #44 ATL #31

  • corey
    July 06, 2017 at 4:47pm

    Dave,

    Thanks for the response!

    Kent= 0 debt
    LST employment/unemployment scores 55/10.7. However the underemployment is 22.7%.
    Ranking US News: #92 ATL: not in to 50

    UIUC= 39k – 21k = 18k per year= 54k debt after 3 years.
    LST employment/unemployment 78.3/8.4. Underemployment 10.8.
    Ranking US news: #44 ATL #31

  • Dave Killoran
    July 07, 2017 at 2:57pm

    Hey Corey, thanks for the reply! I always like everyone to do those breakdowns so they can see the facts (and everyone else can too). In this case, it’s a tough call. Yes, Kent has worse employment numbers, but it’s free. Illinois is a school I really like, but it it’s going to cost you $54K. So it’s $54K debt vs worse job prospects. which one do you fear most? That is the essence of the decision being made here. I’d personally probably take Illinois, and use the bigger name and better job prospects to erase what is a smallish debt, but that is not the “best” decision here. What’s best is the choice you make, and I can tell you that debt avoidance is usually a very high priority for me. Difficult decision either way!

  • Jess
    July 07, 2017 at 7:53pm

    Hey Dave, I’m trying to decide between GMU and GW, both with big scholarships. I like the D.C/Virginia area and would feel comfortable working there for the foreseeable future, although GW seems to give a little more mobility in terms of employment. I’m very debt-averse, so even with the large scholarship at GW, 42k is still a lot to me in terms of debt. LST seems to indicate the employment scores for the two are relatively similar, so I’m not sure if GW is worth the additional debt when I could go to GMU four miles away for a total of 8k. I’ve already signed a lease in the area, so I intend to go to one of these two law schools this August. I could’ve waited until next cycle and tried for a t14, but I can’t stomach that amount of debt when I’m not committed to getting biglaw. My parents think I should take the less expensive option, and I don’t know any lawyers I could ask.

    George Washington tuition non-discounted (174k) – 132k scholarship = 42k debt
    LST employment/unemployment scores 67.2/10.1 underemployed 19.5%
    Ranking: USNews: #30 ATL: 34

    George Mason tuition non-discounted (122k) – 114k scholarship = 8k debt
    LST employment/unemployment scores 64.7/6.8 underemployed 12%
    Ranking: USNews: #41 ATL: N/A

  • Dave Killoran
    July 08, 2017 at 1:06am

    Hi Jess,

    Thanks for the question! This is really tough for me. On a relative scale, $42K isn’t bad, and since I love ATL’s ratings, that #31 is appealing. but your parents also have a point: leaving with just $8K is akin to a free education. That’s pretty hard to pass up!

    The one question I want to ask you is: do you see yourself at GMU? Because your happiness will be critically important to how well you perform in law school, and how well you perform is going to be critical to the jobs you can obtain. If you like GMU and see yourself there, I see no reason to not go there. But if you can’t or prefer GW, then you need to consider that carefully.

    Please let me know what you think. Thanks!

  • Jess
    July 08, 2017 at 8:35pm

    Hey Dave, thanks for responding so quickly! I really appreciate your insight. I do like the location of GMU and the fact that it’s a smaller school. My hesitation is that going there essentially rules out almost any chance of biglaw or a federal clerkship, whereas 35% of GW grads will get those positions. I don’t know for sure if I’d want to do biglaw or clerk, but GMU doesn’t really give me the option. So that’s why it’s such a hard choice for me

  • Dave Killoran
    July 09, 2017 at 4:58pm

    Hi Jess, you are correct about GMU placing at a lower rate in those jobs (here are the numbers for anyone else reading, per https://www.lstreports.com/national/) compared to GW:

    GW: Fed Clerkship = 3.8%
    Big firm = 23.4%

    GMU: Fed Clerkship = 1.5%
    Big firm = 9%

    This is exactly where the tradeoff here becomes apparent: certain job prospects are sacrificed in order to obtain the lower fees. There’s one school of thought that says that saving $34K is small potatoes compared to the possible income loss by not having these options, but that is true only if those jobs interest you AND you can obtain one. The other school of thought says that nothing is guaranteed, but that debt is real and non-dischargeable, and thus to be avoided at all costs.

    The best advice I can offer here is to take some time to research big firm jobs and clerkships, the type of work required, and the options they create in your working life. If the option is something you conclude is necessary for your future, then you’ll make one decision. If you determine that when is all is said and done that those options aren’t that important, then you’ll make a different decision. But right now is the time to look very carefully because the decision you make has real consequences regardless of which direction you take.

    I hope that helps, and good luck!

  • Katherine Wahl
    July 11, 2017 at 3:44pm

    Hi Dave,

    I recently got off the waitlist for GW, but with no money and only for the part-time program (which is not the program I applied for, nor a program I really want to be in but I would be able to transfer to full-time in the spring). I currently have a 30K per year scholarship at American (WCL)… So I have to decide if the ranking at GW is worth the money and being in a program I don’t like for a semester, do you have any advice?

    Please let me know what you think!

  • Dave Killoran
    July 11, 2017 at 9:20pm

    Hi Katherine!

    My take on the part-time program is that GW is actually trying hard here to create a pathway for you, not just ignoring your app or rejecting you. So I wouldn’t worry too much about the program they put you in at first since they are trying to use it as a way to get you into the regular full-time program at the school. This is what schools do when they like a candidate but the applicant doesn’t meet some part of their normal criteria.

    From here, then, I’m going to request that you do the numbers comparison I do above for both schools. Here’s the GW one:

    GW: Non discounted Cost = 308K
    GW: Employment score = 64% / Under Employment = 21.1%
    GW Rankings: USnews #30; ATL: #33

    The reason I want you to do American is that I want you to see the exact differences in black and white as far as numbers. I explain why a few times above so I won’t repeat it again.

    Once we have that, let’s look at your decision more closely. Thanks!

  • Katie
    July 12, 2017 at 2:31pm

    Hi Dave,

    I was accepted to several schools last week, and have narrowed it down to three. Finances are a strong consideration, but I also don’t want to discount the ranking of these schools. I am fairly certain I will remain in the Baltimore/Washington area, considering my husband and I just purchased a home in Baltimore. I should also note I will be going in the evening while working at a small firm during the day that provides guaranteed employment upon graduation should I opt to practice this type of law.

    My options are:

    University of Maryland- highest ranked of the schools I am considering (#48 overall, #4 part time)
    22k-10k= 12k per year
    American University- #6 for part time programs, 2 hour commute total each day
    38k-30k= 8k per year
    University of Baltimore- not highly ranked (#29 for part time), but strong local reputation. More likely to be near top of class
    24k-15k=9k per year

    I have just two more days to make a decision (I was only given a week by one of these schools), and am looking for any input you have to offer.

    Thanks in advance!

  • Dave Killoran
    July 13, 2017 at 12:31am

    Hi Katie,

    I only have a moment to respond unfortunately, but to me this is a fairly clear case. Given the close amounts per year, I’d look at the two more highly ranked schools, meaning Maryland and AU. Then when you toss in that commute for AU, I think that Maryland looks very strong. Not to put my own value judgment on this, but 2 hours commute each day and you only save 4K a year, and it’s for a lower ranked school? That doesn’t seem to add up to me at all.

    Also, no matter how well Baltimore is regarded locally, always think big picture, especially when costs are so close.

    Last note, you can never assume what will happen with class rank or grades; it’s just too variable to even think about that as a factor. Things at a different school could align even better, or something at Baltimore might cause issues.

    So, given all the factors, if it was me, I’d take Maryland and not look back for even a second 🙂

    I hope that helps. Thanks and please let me knwo what YOU decide, because that’s what important here!

  • Pearl
    July 18, 2017 at 11:58pm

    Hi Dave,

    I took my lsats this past February and managed to score a 166 by studying on my own. By the time I received my score it was too late to apply to any of the t14 law schools. I did apply to Fordham and was accepted woth a $30,000 scholarship per year.

    I am trying to decide of it is worth attending Fordham or if I should hold off a year and apply to Penn, Michigan, amd Georgetown. I am interested in practicing either child advocacy law, law assisting those with developmental disabilities, or constitutional law/judicial. The problem with holding off is that I am not guaranteed admittance to another law school or scholarship, although I do have a high undergraduate gpa. I currently live in NY which would decrease my cost of living of I attend Fordham and I am interested in attending Fordham. If I do hold off I may retake my lsats with the hope of improving my score.
    Thank you for your advice on whether I should accept Fordham’s offer.

  • Dave Killoran
    July 19, 2017 at 4:47pm

    Hi Pearl,

    This is an extremely difficult question for me to answer, and really I don’t feel comfortable making a recommendation when the only things I know are that you received a 166 and live in NY. It’s just not enough to weigh in on what is an extremely important life decision for you!

    I will say this however: if Fordham offered you a $30K scholarship, then they obviously liked what they saw. In cases such as that, more highly-ranked schools will often at least come to the table with an offer of admission. How much they offer in scholarships is another matter, but certainly what you have so far suggests that as far as rankings, you could probably gain acceptances from more highly-ranked schools. At that point, it becomes the classic argument over money vs rankings, and with no real information about your application strengths and weaknesses, it’s impossible to say what the outcome would be there.

    Again, I don’t normally suggest our services as matter of avoiding bias, but if I were you I’d contact our Admissions Consulting Department and schedule about two hours with Tony Bates, and then have him do an overview of your app and give his opinion. He worked as a dean in the admissions offices of NYU, Michigan, and Washington, as well as attended Michigan Law, and he’d be able to definitively say whether your chances at T14 schools were realistic. Yes, I realize that’s not a cheap solution, but the decision you are talking about here has potentially millions of dollars in repercussions, and I can’t make a judgment from where I’m sitting.

    Thanks and good luck!

  • Nicolle
    July 19, 2017 at 11:37pm

    Hi Pearl and Dave, I’m not sure if I should weigh in here, but I got a 166 and was also accepted to Fordham with a 30k scholarship. I accepted, especially because I want to live and practice in NY. My undergrad gpa is 3.5 and I got my paralegal certificate with a 4.0 gpa. I didn’t really have many extracurriculars, and I’ve been out of school for about 8 years working various jobs and most recently as a paralegal. I’m saying all this so maybe you can compare your application to mine. I applied to Cornell and NYU and Columbia and got rejected from them all. I did not, however, apply to the schools you listed above. I feel like 166 is kind of a weird score, its very high for most schools and too low for top schools. Again not sure if this was helpful or if I’m allowed to respond but figured I’d share.

  • Pearl
    July 20, 2017 at 2:59am

    Hi Nicolle,

    Thank you for your response, it was very insightful. My situation is slightly different from yours. I graduated 2 years ago with 3.98 gpa. Since graduation i have managed to work my way up from a supervisor to a senior manager at a non-profit. I received a few emails from law schools such as Michigan and Washington University inviting me to apply. I understand that it does not guarantee me admission, however, I believe that its an indicator that I may be able to get into the above mentioned schools. I do agree that a 166 is an akward score.

  • Maggie Walton
    July 20, 2017 at 4:35am

    Hello,
    I am trying to choose between UC Berkeley, UCLA, The University of Chicago, and U Michigan. I have ruled out Michigan and UCLA for several factors that are not relevant to this discussion. I also have a full ride scholarship to a school ranked between between 30 and 22 (it has fluctuated for the years).

    I have no scholarship at either Berkeley or University of Chicago. Full Sticker on both.

    For full sticker price, which is going to maximize my odds of landing a job in Big Law job out of law school? Does it matter that one is ranked 4th and the other 12th? How much does it matter?

    If one can do better at Berkeley (Law Review for example) but not as well as UChicago (but still get good grades at Chicago, but good lets say some B’s and some A’s), would there be a more clear answer to which option is the better option.

    Is it worth paying sticker at both than it is to attend a school ranked in the mid-20’s?

    Thank you.
    MW

  • Dave Killoran
    July 20, 2017 at 2:49pm

    Hi MW,

    This is kind of the golden question, as to whether a full ride at a T25 or so school is a better choice than full boat at the #4 ranked school. As you may have noticed, there’s not an answer that is the same for every person. It depends on your job goals, your debt tolerance, your geographical preferences, and even your belief in yourself. For example, if you wanted to be a law professor and absolutely have your heart set on it, that changes the parameters of your decision. Now, you mentioned biglaw, which happens to be notoriously name-sensitive. Here’s the comparison:

    Chicago: Large Firm = 61.4%
    Berkeley: Large Firm = 49.7%
    (and Chicago does about 5% on clerkships too, which are key: 16% vs 11%)

    Is that worth the approximately $68K more you pay at Chicago? For me personally it probably would be since once you’re at that debt level I’d go for the best possible outcome; for you, though, I don’t know. I don’t know how debt averse you are, I don’t know which school you might thrive at, and I don’t know so many factors here that would truly make this decision.

    So, I recommend very strongly that you run all the analyses I’ve talked about in my responses above, from a debt analysis to a jobs analysis. Even looks at rankings, such as ATL’s (http://abovethelaw.com/law-school-rankings/top-law-schools/), which puts Chicago #2 and Berkeley #12. Ask yourself which gives you the best pathway for you, and how set you are on those goals.

    Good luck!

  • Pearl
    July 21, 2017 at 12:48am

    Hi Dave,

    Thank you for your response. I am unsure if the following information will help you give me a recommendation. I would consider utilizing the consulting service, however, I have a very limited amount of time to answer Fordham by. I graduated from a CUNY with a 3.98 gpa and a dual major. While in college I worked at a non-profit organization, I started out as a direct care worker and worked my way from that to supervisor to senior manager, where I am currently now.
    I have received a few emails from various institutions inviting me to apply or to come down for a tour. These invitations came from Michigan, Upenn, as well as lower ranked institutes.
    I am not interested in practicing big law, which is where my apprehension to take on a large amount of debt stems from.
    Thank you,
    Pearl

  • Maggie Walton
    July 21, 2017 at 6:14pm

    Hello Dave,
    Thank for your fast reply.
    I have utilized the sites you reference regularly (Law School Transparency and ATL) for some insight, but still no clear answer.

    Which choice between UChicago and Berkeley would be better for academia?
    How much of a difference is there in rankings translated into the real world, even if the two extremes of ranking (#2 v. @12 are assumed)? (will law firms care; will future academic hiring care)
    Would it matter that one has Law Review at the #12 and no law review at the #2? (would law journal participation matter at all if the journal is not the flagship journal for a school)

    Thank you for what you do.
    MW

  • Dave Killoran
    July 25, 2017 at 9:27pm

    Hi Maggie,

    All these factors matter and that’s why it’s so hard to say which is “best.” Chicago is the better ranked school and it has better job placement and better clerkship placement. It’s a cut above Berkeley when everything else is ignored. But is it best for you? I can’t say 🙂

    If you went to Berkeley and received better grades and made law review, and only did middling at Chicago, then Berkeley would likely turn out better for you. and that’s the problem–we can’t see into the future.

    Clerkship placement (especially federal placement) is a really good indicator to me of how these schools are regarded because these are the most desirable jobs, and they often set up the receiver in a great position for academia or biglaw. You can see Chicago at 16.7% federal placement (better than a 1 in 8 chance!) vs Berkeley at 11.8% (still great, just not nearly as good as Chicago). So, if you’re looking for a straight answer about academia chances based just on placement numbers (which I don’t recommend), then it’s Chicago. And yes, hiring partners at law firms know all this too 🙂

    I always tell students to go where they feel most comfortable because that will help you perform at your best. Both of these schools are great, and either one can provide a platform for success. But much of your outcome will depend on how you perform once you arrive.

    Good luck!

  • Dallin Packard
    October 17, 2017 at 1:41am

    Hello,
    my questions are currently hypothetical, and won’t become concrete until I begin receiving acceptance letters and scholarships. But here’s my question: Would I be better off going to Columbia most likely at full cost, or UT most likely debt free (or close to it.) I am a Texas resident and want to practice patent law in Houston. Eventually I want to open up a firm with my brother. But in addition to that, I have a big interest in doing a federal clerkship and in putting myself on the right track of becoming a judge one day. I know that judgeship isn’t something I can plan for really, or even expect, but I do think a clerkship would go a long way to help make that happen.

    Also, UT is set, but the case of Columbia might also be for any of the other top 7 or so schools, excluding HYS, as they are most likely just out of reach.

  • Dave Killoran
    October 17, 2017 at 10:33pm

    Hi Dallin,

    Thanks for the questions. It’s so tough to answer hypotheticals, in part because so often the hypothetical doesn’t come to pass exactly as foreseen 🙂

    In this case, I personally would go debt free, because that’s a guarantee. No matter what happens in law school or what future choices you want to make, you won’t be saddled by huge debt, which can be debilitating. But, everyone makes their own choices, and what I say may not apply to you. It’s a decision you have to weigh, and you have to prioritize each factor. UT is certainly a stellar law school with a massive network in Texas, so it’s not like you can go wrong going there. Columbia is obviously very special, and has great hiring stats, and the only downside is the debt (which is a big one). I strongly recommend you familiarize yourself with all the costs associated with law school, and then look carefully at what the monthly debt looks like after you graduate.

    I’d recommend reading my analyses of other decisions on this blog post, because some are similar to the one you pose and because I reference a host of useful tools for analyzing the decision, as well as the reasons behind some of my thinking.

    Thanks!

  • Taylor
    December 29, 2017 at 2:03am

    Hey David,

    This blog post has been really helpful in my decision making process thus far. I have currently been accepted to most of the schools I applied to for the Fall 2018 semester. But now comes the hard part of picking the best one. I have looked at some of the school’s LST reports like you mentioned in previous comments and I wanted to see what you thought. I am currently looking at Akron who offered me 60% off tuition. Akron’s tuition is already very cheap at roughly $24,000 a year, making my total tuition cost for all three years about $30,000. Their LST report is what is holding me back though. Their employment rate in full-time legal jobs is at about 44.4%. If that number was a bit higher I wouldn’t have as many reservations. I am also considering University of Louisville, which is ranked a lot higher and has a better employment score of 60.7%. They offered me $15,000 off $40,000 tuition a year, making my tuition for all three years at about $75,000. A couple of other schools I applied to have the same tuition and offered me about the same amount. I just feel like Akron’s deal is too nice to pass up. Even though it’s not a full ride I would still come out with not little debt compared to what it could be. Debt scares me but not being employed scares me too. If you were in my shoes what would you do? Thanks.

  • Dave Killoran
    January 02, 2018 at 8:14pm

    Hi Taylor,

    Thanks for the question! If you read through the many replies I’ve made on this post, you’ll see two things:

    1. I tend to be debt-averse but also conscious of job outcomes as a key factor.

    2. I rarely make direct suggestions unless it’s crystal clear to me what the optimal route is.

    In your case, all I have are the basic job stats from the some of the schools, and the distinction there isn’t enough for me to think things are clear. So much of this is about you, your goals, where you will perform well, which school you like the most, and so on that there’s no way for me to add anything here that’s insightful! So, as much as I’d love to be able to make a definitive recommendation, I think it would be irresponsible of me or anyone to do so without knowing WAY more about you and where you want to go in life. This is, ultimately, the kind of decision that strangers can’t make for you–you have to look inside and go with what your feel is best.

    I’m sorry 🙁

  • Dallin Packard
    January 22, 2018 at 11:45pm

    Dave,

    I’ve got an update on my cycle.
    Scholarship offers: UVA 120,000, Michigan 135,000, UT 24,000
    COA: Mich – 105k
    UVA – 125k
    UT – 145k

    For working in Texas, is UT really that much better than other T10’s? These scholarships are making me second guess myself

  • Dave Killoran
    January 23, 2018 at 6:23pm

    Hi Dallin,

    Good to hear from you! So wait, UVA offered you 120K and Texas only 24K? That’s messed up, honestly.

    Here’s what I’d do: contact the Texas admissions office (call and try to speak with someone who can make a decision; if you can’t, then email. But a call is preferable since this is a personal situation). Explain that you are in Houston and would LOVE to attend UT, and it’s your top choice (assuming that to be the case). But then tell them that UVA has offered 5 times the amount of aid UT has, and Michigan almost 6 times (cite the actual numbers). Request a review of your aid offer, and ask them if they can be more competitive because you want to stay in-state. UT will understand immediately that UVA is a better option at lower cost, and if they hear you are serious about attending UT, there’s a good chance they’ll respond positively.

    It almost seems like they saw your numbers and assumed you’d be going elsewhere, so they low-balled you. So, you have better offers in hand–use them to negotiate and get something better for yourself. I’d wager they’ll come back and give you a much improved offer.

    Please let me know what happens, and good luck!

  • Eliza Johnson
    January 26, 2018 at 3:24pm

    Hi,

    I am in a complicated situation. I have applied to, and been accepted to all 3 law schools in my home state of Minnesota – University of Minnesota, Mitchell Hamline and University of St. Thomas. MH & UST are both regional schools, where University of Minnesota is in the top 50. I was offered full tuition scholarships at both MH & UST, and 18k from University of Minnesota.

    Knowing that I want to practice in Minnesota, ideally Intellectual Property law and eventually break into the Federal circuit – does it make sense to take the money and run?

    I am fairly well connected, and would bust my butt to be in the top 5 at a regional school. Or should I gamble, and get debt?

    I am also concerned about the learning environments, and the amount of connection and camaraderie at the University of Minnesota vs. a smaller regional school.

    Please let me know what you think!

  • Dave Killoran
    January 27, 2018 at 12:19am

    Hi Eliza,

    I’m actually from Minneapolis, which helps a bit in this case 🙂

    The Minneapolis legal market is pretty tight, and while the U is ranked well above both MH and UST, both MH and UST do pretty well placing grads into the Mpls market. The U tends to have the power to place grads a bit further afield (the #23 ranking helps there), so you see a lower placement rate into Minnesota and greater placement in larger legal markets like NY, IL, and CA. You probably know that, but it’s worth noting because it’s part of the reason their financial offer wasn’t as good as the other two.

    So, we can see relative rankings but that doesn’t answer your question. And I’m not sure there is a perfect answer. Some would say take the ranking, others would say take the free ride. I tend to avoid debt as much as possible, but part of this depends on your career path, the type of firm you want to practice at, etc. So let’s start with job outcomes:

    Minnesota: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/minnesota/jobs/ — 80.1% in Bar Passage Required jobs / 3.3% Unemployed

    Mitchell Hamline: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/mitchell-hamline/jobs/ — 61.6% in Bar Passage Required jobs / 17.5% Unemployed

    St. Thomas: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/stthomas/jobs/ — 58.5% in Bar Passage Required jobs / 5.5% Unemployed

    Federal circuit IP isn’t normally the province of solo practitioners or very small firms, so the job placement above makes some difference. I would spend serious time researching who is doing the representation at the federal level.

    Next, to your comment about you “would bust my butt to be in the top 5 at a regional school.” I like that sentiment a lot, but I’m going to be a realist here: every student enters with that mindset. Law school is very different than “normal” university, both in learning required and how exams are your entire grade. One good day or bad day can make or break you, and so I always tell students not to count on being at the very top of the class. There are just no guarantees.

    Next, about your connections. How good are they? Will they hire you no matter where you went to school? Because if not, then again there’s no guarantee.

    So, at this point you are probably thinking, “Ok then, I’m off to the U!” But then the financials kick in, and with the U costing about $230K over three years, if your aid is 18K a *year*, then you will be left with around $175K in debt. That’s a lot, almost $2K a month for the next decade. And so you have to balance that kind of cost against what your career goals are. This is why I suggested you take a close look at your connections and who practices the type of law you want to enter to see if you can take the free ride route, or whether that is going to require more name-brand power. That’s the part I can’t tell you about because I don’t have all the information that you do, but it gives you a starting point for a deeper analysis.

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Dominique Williams
    February 01, 2018 at 4:24am

    Hi Dave,
    So…I got into Tulane Law School, ranked (51), and they offered me a $25,000/year scholarship.
    Their tuition and fees cost about $56,000
    My debt would be about $100k coming out of law school if I attend.
    I also got into a much lower ranked school Loyola New Orleans (142, i think?), and they offered me a $36,000 scholarship that would cover 82% of my tuition and fees.
    My debt would be $24k coming out of law school if I were to attend the lower ranked school.
    I’m not exactly sure what type of law I want to practice as of now, but I do know that I do not want to stay in Louisiana.
    What do I do?

  • Dave Killoran
    February 01, 2018 at 5:08pm

    Hi Dominique,

    Thanks for the question! It’s not one I can directly answer for you, though. However, the first step is for you to take a look at the https://www.lstreports.com/ data and break things down in the manner I talk about repeatedly above. Have you done that yet? If not, do so and then post the data. Especially look at placement numbers outside of Louisiana, as you know you don’t want to stay in-state. Having some hard facts about job placement will put those debt numbers in better context, and make the analysis easier.

    Thanks!

  • Jesse A.
    February 01, 2018 at 9:04pm

    It is nice to see that I am not the only having to make tough decisions about law school. I have a question regarding what you all believe would be the best course of action. I am also from Minnesota.

    1. I was accepted to Maryland Law (Top 50) with no scholarship so I would be paying sticker out of state for the first year, and in state for years 2 and 3 because my parents reside in Maryland.

    2. I received 60% from St. Thomas, so huge discount, however St. Thomas is a regional school and I don’t think I want to be in Minnesota forever.

    I am attracted to the Maryland offer because it was pretty much my first choice, however, it is very costly and the amount of debt I will incur upon graduating worries me. However, I do know that I want to have the option to practice sports and entertainment law in DC, NY, LA, MIAMI, or CHI if I wanted to. And i feel that Maryland Law would give me the best opportunity to do that in the future. Should I take the money and run? Or should I take on the debt to pursue my career goals?

  • Dave Killoran
    February 02, 2018 at 7:49pm

    Hi Jesse,

    This is a very difficult choice, and there are people on both sides who would argue strongly that one choice or the other is best. I’d first suggest you create a spreadsheet that shows you the *exact* debt you will acquire by attending each school (including cost of living, etc). Second, with that information in hand, you need to look at the job outcomes form each school, especially in light of your career goals. There is also the consideration that in the field you say interests you, UST has zero name recognition whereas Maryland is at least a “name” brand among people (I don’t mean Maryland Law specifically, but just the University). There are no sure things here, and 60% off UST is nice, but it still leaves you with debt. but Maryland leaves you with more–and you have to be prepared to deal with that if you take that choice.

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • George M
    February 04, 2018 at 3:32pm

    Hello Dave,

    I’m a Mexican-American from East Los Angeles and considering applying to law school at age 44. I was looking up on how to pay for law school online and saw your posts. I am married with 5 kids and my oldest 2 are twins that will be starting college Fall 2018. I’ve wrestled with the thought of whether I should even try to attend law school at my age and the same time how will I pay for it and what schools I should apply to. Can you give me any advice on this as well as on which schools in my area offer full rides and what I would need to do to get a full ride?

    Thanks!

  • Jon Denning
    February 06, 2018 at 8:22pm

    Hi George – thanks for the questions! Let me try to take them one at a time 🙂

    First, as to your age and family situation, there’s absolutely nothing that I’m hearing that makes me think you wouldn’t be an excellent candidate for law school! You’re what’s considered a non-traditional applicant due to being a little older than the average 1L (first year student), but schools appreciate diversity so that won’t be viewed negatively. It simply means you’ll have some slightly unique choices to make when applying, like collecting your letters of recommendation from your professional career rather than your academic life–I doubt you’re still in touch with college professors from your undergrad days, anyway–and whether you’d want to attend full-time in law school, or enter a part-time program which many schools offer.

    Those are decisions only you can make, of course, but on the whole there’s zero reason to think that you’re not a qualified candidate 🙂

    Second, schools in the LA area and scholarships. LA really has a wide variety of options nearby, from the quite prestigious USC and UCLA programs, to some great mid-range schools in Loyola and Pepperdine, to less highly-ranked but still attractive options like Southwestern.

    Scholarships are available at each institution, however you’ll find that a “full ride” is going to require very different, and sometimes unpredicted, elements at each. For instance, a full academic ride to UCLA is likely to require an undergrad GPA of nearly-4.0 and an LSAT score of at least 169+ (and probably more like 173+). You’ll also need strong “softs” like a great personal statement, excellent letters of rec, and a compelling resume since you’ve been out of school for at least 20 years I suspect.

    But a full ride to Southwestern is going to be far easier to attain–the LSAT score in particular can likely be at least 8-12 points lower than the UCLA numbers I gave and still leave you competitive–so it’s an entirely different metric.

    So here’s your best bet right now. First, take a full, timed practice LSAT if you’ve never done so before (or if it’s been a while, like more than 2-3 months ago). There’s a free one you can download here: https://www.lsac.org/docs/default-source/jd-docs/sampleptjune.pdf

    Print it out, find some privacy, and then take the full test start to finish as four back-to-back sections of 35 minutes each. It’ll take around 2.5 hours total.

    Once you finish, create an account on our free self-study site so you can score your test: http://students.powerscore.com/self-study/index.cfm

    You’ll enter your answers and get comprehensive feedback on how you performed, so you’ll know both your starting score as well as your natural strengths and weaknesses (and immediate areas for improvement). Based on that starting point, look at the local LA schools I mentioned and see how your starting score stacks up–you can easily google data on each–as that will give you a better sense of how far you are from being financially attractive to these schools (for instance, UCLA’s median LSAT score is around a 167 whereas Southewestern’s is a 152).

    Then you can decide how best to prep to get your score up to a level to make you scholarship-competitive, depending on which school you’d like to attend and what’s most realistic! Just check out our prep options on our main LSAT page http://www.powerscore.com/lsat/ and let us know if you have any questions!

    I hope that helps!

  • George M
    February 06, 2018 at 8:42pm

    Jon,

    Thank you very much for the information. It helps a ton!

  • Grace H
    February 06, 2018 at 11:20pm

    Hi there! I found this article extremely helpful, so thank you so much for that! I am a big fan of PowerScore.
    I am in a little bit of a predicament and could use some guidance. I was accepted to both Emory and the University of Florida, with a $45,000 scholarship to Emory. I would get in-state tuition if I went to the University of Florida, so it would be cheaper than Emory. I am not sure where I want to practice law, but I could see myself ending up in Florida. I was just curious as to whether or not you think Emory is the better school and it would benefit me to go there over UF or if it is only marginally better than UF. Thank you in advance!

  • Dave Killoran
    February 07, 2018 at 10:36pm

    Hi Grace,

    Thanks for the questions and kind comments! There are a few things you should look at first, all of which I detail in responses above if you want some references for how that info looks 🙂

    I like both schools quite a bit, but Emory is #22, Florida is #41, and so we see how the rankings view the two schools comparatively. But, how much is that rankings difference worth? Start at https://www.lstreports.com/national/ and go look at employment data and job types of the grads at each school. Examine where they practice in terms of geography, firm type, etc. Then calculate your *exact* total debt and monthly payment, if possible, based on tuition, scholarships, cost of living, etc. That debt difference–is it worth the job outcome differences you see from those schools? That’s the real question here. If you’d like, you can post the info and I’ll weigh in, but this all starts with gathering as much data as possible, using debt calculators to see monthly payments, comparing job outcomes, and so on. Having the exact amounts in black and white can really help clarify the choice!

    There’s also personal factors here that are significant, and the problem there is aside from what you’e posted above, I don’t know much about you. That makes it really difficult (and somewhat reckless) for me to simply say that school A is better than school B. Maybe you’d thrive at one school but not at the other–that’s the kind of stuff you want to think about as well 🙂

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Susan
    February 09, 2018 at 5:08pm

    Hi all!

    Reading through these comments has been very helpful. I’m fortunate to be choosing between the Rubenstein at UChicago (full tuition + $20,000/year stipend), the Hamilton at Columbia (full tuition), and Harvard with no aid. My career goals are a federal clerkship in the short term and a prestigious public interest position in the long term (DOJ honors, ACLU, etc). I’m concerned that UChicago doesn’t seem to have much of a public interest community and Columbia’s clerkship rates are a bit low compared to the other two. Are these differences significant enough that they should concern me given my goals? I’m trying to gauge how much of a boost I would get from Harvard for these positions. My understanding is that grades are also a big factor in success in this field and Harvard is less competitive in that respect. With all that said, I haven’t heard from Stanford or Yale yet – would an acceptance from one of those change your answer?

    I’m only beginning the process of making such a big decision but would appreciate any insight. Thank you!

  • Dave Killoran
    February 09, 2018 at 7:14pm

    Hi Susan,

    Those are great options, congratulations! To me at least, this is a pretty clear-cut case. As much as I love Harvard, I would have a *very* hard time thinking that full tuition there is somehow possibly better than a free ride at Chicago or Columbia. The economics of it just make no sense to pay full ride when you have T6 schools offering that much money to you.

    As far as Chicago vs Columbia, these are top level schools, and neither will cause you to “go wrong.” and, you’ll find any community you want at either school. These are broad and varied student bodies with tons of diverse interests 🙂

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Susan
    February 10, 2018 at 2:17pm

    Hi Dave! Thank you, that’s very helpful!

  • Mitchell Elliott
    February 12, 2018 at 3:44am

    Hello,

    I live in the NW and want to go to law school in Texas. So far, I’ve been accepted into Baylor with a 70k scholarship spread over three years, though I got accepted into Texas AM law school with a full ride scholarship. Which one would you suggest I choose?

    Thank you!

  • Dave Killoran
    February 12, 2018 at 7:23pm

    Hi Mitchell,

    As you’ve probably seen above, I ask students with school-choice questions to make a full cost-debt-jobs analysis based on publicly available information at https://www.lstreports.com/national/. I would strongly suggest you do the same analysis, as it will allow you see see exactly what you are paying for in typical job outcomes if you go to Baylor.

    I also say repeatedly above that I’m debt averse, and if you take on debt, make sure it’s worth it. UT vs Texas A&M with the money involved might be a choice that makes me think, but Baylor isn’t a school that seems worth almost $200K of debt vs a much lower cost at A&M. But that’s just me–you have to look at how you feel about each school, the monthly payments involved, the job types and locations, etc and make the decision you feel is best for YOU.

    Good luck!

  • Neil Pladus
    February 14, 2018 at 11:26am

    How do you differentiate between schools that are similarly ranked? Let’s say you were offered a half scholarship at Minnesota and near full at a mid 30s school like Wake Forest? Is ten-fifteen ranking spots worth 10-15k in scholarship money?

  • Dave Killoran
    February 14, 2018 at 5:23pm

    Hi Neil,

    Thanks for the question. In most cases, unless you are talking about a Top3 school, the difference usually isn’t worth it. This is mainly because the job drawing power of Minnesota simply isn’t worth the extra cash vs the job power of Wake (and I say this as someone originally from Minnesota, so there’s no anti-U bias here). You can see this from comparing costs and job placement data from the two schools (see https://www.lstreports.com/national/ for a trove of relevant data) and then running the monthly payment from the extra debt accrued by attending a school such as Minnesota. Is it worth it to you? I tend to be debt-averse, so for me the attractiveness of graduating from a mid30s school with no debt is very hard to ignore.

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Daisy G.
    March 06, 2018 at 5:32pm

    Hi,

    I have a similar dilemma between choosing between law schools who have offered me a lot in scholarship funds versus a law school with a more noticeable name. I have received a $30, 000 per year scholarship Suffolk University, Full Ride albeit with a conditional Public Interest Fellowship from UMASS Darthmouth, and $16, 000 from Loyola in Chicago. The two I am focusing on are below:

    Quinnipiac – Full Tuition Scholarship – Deans’ Fellowship which includes a 1, 500 per year educational stipend and opportunity to become faculty Research Assistant, the only condition is that I have to stay in the top 50% of my class.
    43% Employment/25% Underemployment
    USNEWS #125

    Northeastern – $10, 000 per year scholarship
    57% Employment/29 % Underempployment
    USNEWS #65

    Still pending responses from University of Connecticut and Boston College. I know I want to practice in Boston, MA regardless of where I go to law school, and I do plan on negotiating my scholarship with Northeastern,though I am not sure if they will be very flexible. I know Northeastern is a better School for me, I absolutely adore their campus, I have friends working in the area so room and board would not be a problem, and I know so much about their co-op program and academics I could practically be a tour guide for their school. The issue truly comes down to money, basically will the differences between these two law schools ultimately lead to a significantly better job if I go to Northeastern?

  • Dave Killoran
    March 07, 2018 at 12:10am

    Hi Daisy,

    This is great info and perfectly presented, so thank you for doing this the right way! That said, can you do one more thing please: calculate the full debt total and resulting monthly payment for attending each school. I want you (and me) to be able to quantify *exactly* what it costs to attend Northeastern vs Quinnipiac. Include it all: living expenses, travel, tuition, books, etc. Then, post the employment numbers for the exact type of job you are seeking. Those will be more useful here as a comparison than just the broad employment numbers. Seeing those figures will provide a black and white background for your decision.

    Also, that said, it may well be that the numbers don’t matter. Your affinity for Northeastern is not something that should be ignored because how comfortable you are will directly impact how well you do in law school. And your grades are *everything* for your future prospects.

    I realize that’s a mixed answer, but those data points will help narrow this down even more I believe. Thanks and I look forward to hearing back from you!

  • Daisy G.
    March 07, 2018 at 4:57pm

    Hi Dave,

    Thanks for the speedy response! I have added the additional information below. I am amidst a year off between graduating undergrad and entering law school, during this time I have been working as a Paralegal at a small law firm which focuses in Health Law. Through this experience I realized I want to pursue Health Law but at a level which influences public policy such as working with a organizations to regulate quality of care given by medical providers or working with the FDA. I know I do not want to work at a small law firm (if possible).

    Northeastern:
    COA – 68, 943 per year (including living expenses etc.)
    Scholarship – 10, 000 per year
    ______________________________
    Total 58, 943 per year resulting in 176,829 in debt after 3 years
    $1456 per month

    Employment:
    55% of grads are employed in MA, the next largest percentage is NY at 8.6%
    4.6% Large Firm
    24.9% Public Interest
    1.2% Federal Clerkship

    Quinnipiac:
    Cost
    COA – 70, 516
    Full Tuition Scholarship
    Educational Stipend – 1, 500 per year
    _____________________________________
    Total 20, 376 per year resulting in 61, 128 in debt after 3 years
    509 per month

    Employment:
    76% of Employed Graduates are employed in CT, none from the class of 2016 are employed in MA.
    1.3% Large Firm
    10.5% Public Interest
    0% Federal Clerkship

    Also I just received a email from UCONN saying I was accepted! Any merit awards will be in the mailed letter (which I haven’t received yet) but I will keep you updated.

  • Dave Killoran
    March 16, 2018 at 7:32pm

    Hi Daisy,

    Sorry, I missed your followup! I wonder what’s going to happen with your other apps, because it might make this two-school decision a moot point. Obviously, the comparison above makes this a bit clearer both in terms of costs (Northeastern about $1000 more a month than Quinnipiac) but also the job breakdowns (NE having better overall placement). So, at this point, a $1000 more a month seems worth the better prospects (and also fits your preference for the school).

    Let’s see what else comes in 🙂

    Thanks!

  • Michael
    March 20, 2018 at 12:06am

    Good afternoon,

    First and foremost, I want to thank all of y’all at PowerScore – I took a full-length LSAT prep course last summer, as well as a couple hours of private LSAT tutoring and admissions consulting. I would not be in the position that I currently am without the team’s help and support throughout this entire process!

    With that being said, I find myself in a difficult position as to which school to attend next year (the classic “high prestige at sticker price vs. lower ranked school with scholarship money” decision). I am originally from Dallas, TX and am set on staying in-state for law school and work afterwords. Even though things may change in the future, as of now, I am committed to focusing my studies on criminal and constitutional law, possibly working as a prosecutor, appellate lawyer (open to being at either a DA’s office or private firm), or judicial clerkship in the future.

    I have been accepted to the following schools:
    – UT (no scholarship – planning on sending a reconsideration request)
    – SMU ($30,000 per year – sent reconsideration request, but have not heard back yet)
    – Baylor (full tuition)
    – Houston ($24,500 per year)
    – Texas A&M (full tuition)
    – Texas Tech ($27,000 per year)

    Given UT’s prestige and exceptional connections within the state of Texas, I would hate to turn down such an amazing opportunity. On the other hand, I will personally be responsible for any/all debt I incur, making the other schools look more attractive, despite their lower rankings. For example, the estimated cost of attendance at UT would be about $165,000 vs. SMU at about $156,000 vs. paying only non-tuition costs at Baylor.

    I would appreciate any and all advice/guidance in this matter as I prepare to make my final decision.

    Once again, thank you for all of y’all’s help and support – amazing program and staff y’all have, keep up the good work!

    Sincerely,

    Michael

  • Dave Killoran
    March 20, 2018 at 1:59am

    Hi Michael,

    Congrats, and I’m glad we’ve been able to help so far! With a little more info, I think we can help you with this final decision as well 🙂

    You have a difficult decision here, but the good news is that you have a wealth of choices! The starting place for an analysis isn’t just the scholarships and total debt, it’s also all the other factors I’ve talked about variously above (such as rankings, job placement in the job type you want, exact cost of debt per month when full COA is considered, etc). So, the starting point for a full analysis is to put together a breakdown of all those factors as they relate to you. Here’s what a full analysis for a single school looks like:

    School:
    COA – $XXX per year (including living expenses etc.)
    Scholarship – $YYY per year
    ______________________________
    Total $ZZZ per year resulting in $WWW in debt after 3 years
    $SSS per month

    Rankings: USNews #XX; ATL: #XX

    Employment score = XX% / Under Employment = XX%
    Employment types:

    XX% Large Firm
    XX% Small Firm
    XX% Public Interest
    XX% Federal/State Clerkship

    Here’s where to pull the data from:

    https://www.lstreports.com/schools (all the employment and job placement data, as well as some cost data)

    https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings

    http://abovethelaw.com/careers/2016-law-school-rankings/

    https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/debtwizard/Pages/Debt-Wizard-Calc… (for debt, but there are many options)

    If you can, please put together a breakdown of each school (spreadsheet or whatever works) so you can line all this up and see it in black and white. That will crystallize the exact cost of the decision in front of you. If you post that data here, I’ll then be better equipped to comment on it as well.

    Thanks!

  • Jordan
    March 27, 2018 at 6:03pm

    Hi Dave,
    I am currently trying to decide between Notre Dame and WashU Law. Notre Dame has offered $40,000 a year scholarship and WashU has offered $38,000 a year scholarship. I want to practice international law possibly in D.C. Any thoughts on what I should do?
    Thanks!

  • Hayley Mise
    March 28, 2018 at 11:38pm

    Hello!

    I am graduating from the University of Toledo this year from undergrad, and their law school has offered me a full ride scholarship. This is extremely tempting, considering my other options are going to Belmont Law with a 33% tuition scholarship or Chicago-Kent law with a $15,000 annual scholarship. So if I go to my other options, I will end up in hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt but would be going to schools at better schools in better locations. I’m not particularly interested in slaving my life away to 70+ hours of work a week after graduating law school but would still like to live a comfortable life style. I’m also a first generation college student so there is a lot for me to comprehend on my own right now so any guidance would be greatly appreciated!

  • Dave Killoran
    March 28, 2018 at 11:39pm

    Hi Jordan,

    Thanks for the message! Two thoughts for you:

    First, just above your post in my last reply I talk about some of the factors to look at when evaluating schools. Please check those points out because I think they are very helpful!

    Second, if you apply those in this case (and I hope you do), look closely at job outcomes, because the bottom line tuition cost on these two schools is pretty similar (maybe ~$1000 a year difference after your scholarships are taken into account). WashU obviously has the higher ranking, but how you feel about each campus will impact your grades, which will impact your job offers. In other words, there is a TON of information about you that I don’t have, and because of that there’s not enough for me to make a call here. But, if you read my replies above, I talk a lot about tough decisions and what to look for when making them. WashU comes up a fair bit, actually! Reading those will help I think, but more than anything applying a full-scale analysis to this decision is the best place to start.

    Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    March 28, 2018 at 11:41pm

    Hi Hayley,

    Thanks for the message! Let’s start by running through the full analysis I’ve posted just above, at: https://blog.powerscore.com/lsat/scholarship-vs.-prestige-when-to-take-t…

    You’ve got some tough choices here, and I want you to be able to see it in black and white first because I suspect that will narrow your options 🙂

    Thanks!

  • Mike
    March 29, 2018 at 2:43am

    I’m feeling pretty torn between a few schools that have already accepted me and given good offers. Those deposit deadlines are approaching, too. So, here’s what I know I’m working with: ASU has offered a full scholarship, as have WashU and Boston U. Boston College has offered $35K/year. My goals at present involve doing relatively lower-paying public interest or government work (I genuinely don’t see me wanting to put in BigLaw hours).
    In my travels I’ve found that: I’m really not sold on spending 3 years (possibly more) in the midwest; I really like Arizona, but am not totally sold on the legal market there; Boston has a great legal market, all of the people with whom I’ve spoken in Boston have been higher on BC than BU (except for the people currently at BU), and Boston is by far the most expensive place to live of the three. Anything else useful that you could add to my considerations here? I am also rather debt averse, and while my wife and I have some money squirreled away, I am unsure of exactly how far that will go. Any thoughts on my decision welcome.

  • Dave Killoran
    March 29, 2018 at 2:04pm

    Hi Mike,

    Thanks for the message! Ok, the first thing you need to do is get a solid grip on the exact financials for each school. you mentioned that “I am also rather debt averse, and while my wife and I have some money squirreled away, I am unsure of exactly how far that will go” and that concerns me because you can’t make a decision without that information. Fortunately, we can get a good idea for each school as to how far it will go 🙂

    About 5 replies above this one, at https://blog.powerscore.com/lsat/scholarship-vs.-prestige-when-to-take-t… , I list out the basic Cost of Attendance calculation, and provide a debt calculator link as well. What you need to do is find that total COA for each school, then determine the monthly payment that results form that. Then come back and post it here–it will help when you can see the exact amount you’ll be paying each month vs what you have in savings. Do the rest of the analysis there too if you can!

    Note also that some schools have debt forgiveness or lowering based on public interest jobs, so that could further impact the debt incomes here.

    One other note: public interest jobs aren’t typically 40 hour jobs (few lawyering jobs are). They may not be 100+ a week like Biglaw, but they will still be substantial.

    Let’s start with getting the analysis I linked above–it will help, I’m certain of that 🙂

    Thanks!

  • Helen
    March 30, 2018 at 1:57pm

    Hi,
    I’m hoping for some help in deciding between BU and Northeastern (I’m still waiting to hear from BC and if I get in that will probably be on the list as well). BU has offered $30,000 a year and Northeastern has offered full tuition, with a deposit deadline of April 2nd (so this is coming down to the wire). I’m not totally sure what kind of law I want to practice, but I do know I want to stay in Boston, at least for a while. I’ll probably go the public interest way (which would put NUSL in front), but also don’t want to paint myself into a corner. I do want my law job to involve science in some way (I have an M.S. already), which could mean environmental law or something with biotech and IP. I got a better, warmer feeling from NUSL than BU, but am worried about the differences in their employment stats (NUSL is about 80% and BU 90%). I don’t currently have any debt and the thought of taking on a lot (~$120,000 for BU vs. ~$60,000 for NUSL) does scare me.
    Any help would be greatly appreciated.
    Thanks,
    Helen

  • Dave Killoran
    April 01, 2018 at 6:55pm

    Hi Helen,

    Thanks for the question! This is a tough one because you are basically asking if the differing job prospects are worth the $60K difference. And the answer is: I don’t know for sure because much of this is down to what you want and how you perform. That said, $60K more for a school in the T25 vs a school around #75 doesn’t sound like the worst deal to me.

    We can see how they stack up against each other here: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/bu/northeastern/. But, those are broad outcomes, and your individual outcome will depend largely on how you perform at each school. Unfortunately we can’t know that yet! If we knew you were going to graduate at the top of the class at NUSL but in the middle at BU, for example, we’d know NUSL was a better choice. So, one factor to consider is how you feel at each school, because that will have an impact (and you seem to have a feeling there already, which is useful).

    Another factor is your job preferences. I’m not sure about the public interest jobs available for science-background attorneys (maybe they are in high demand, maybe not; I don’t know for sure so you should research that). But if you don’t go the public interest route, BU has a *clear* advantage as far as employment (and, very likely, fewer of their grads go into public interest because they don’t have to; the BU placement in larger firms is far better than NUSLs). BU unquestionably gives you better name recognition and overall better prospects when competing for jobs, especially in Boston. That’s a big plus here given that the cost differential isn’t more than 6 figures.

    I realize the above isn’t much help, but you probably have to pin down your career direction first before being able to make a hard decision. If you aren’t able to do that to your satisfaction, the higher BU ranking at a cost of “only” $60K is going to be hard to pass up.

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks and good luck!

  • Mark
    April 03, 2018 at 8:48pm

    Hi,
    I am struggling a bit to make my decision and, having read your insightful comments, am wondering what your thoughts would be.

    I am W/L at most T-14 schools but have received the following offers.

    BU ($90K scholarship)
    WashU ($70K scholarship)
    USC ($125K scholarship)

    Any clear winner here? Are placements at any of these better than others outside of the respective regions?
    I am going directly from my undergraduate program – are any of these more likely to help me get meaningful work experience/build my resume’?

    Many, may thanks.

  • Mark
    April 03, 2018 at 9:00pm

    Allow me to add that I am very fortunate in that costs are not an issue. While I am open to many career paths, a career in academia is nice to dream about.

    Thanks again!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 03, 2018 at 9:18pm

    Hey Mark,

    Thanks for the question! I have a question first: What’s your full COA at each school, factoring in travel, etc? I ask since I don’t know where you live, and these three schools are all across the US (literally!), and I would suspect that your cost of living and travel would vary a fair bit at each.

    If all else is equal, I would be between WashU and USC. While these schools are all ranked very closely, the employment numbers at WashU and USC are better than BU. USC certainly made a great offer to you, but they do cost more than WashU up front, and WashU does slightly better in placement. USC has a great alumni network, however, which can be helpful.

    So, I’d be down to those two schools, but I’d want to know the black and white cost difference before making a final call.

    Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks!

  • Mark
    April 03, 2018 at 11:20pm

    Dear Dave,

    I am very grateful for your comments. The USC scholarship is actually $135K. The full COA differential is
    about $25K over three years, in favor of USC.

    USC – $81K less $41K scholarship = $40K/year
    WashU – $71K less $23K scholarship = $48K/year

    I am on the East Coast and probably would not choose to settle in STL or LA. NYC would be my first choice. Of course, three years could easily change that.

    Thank you again.

    Mark

  • Dominique
    April 04, 2018 at 8:37am

    Hi, Dave.

    Since my previous comment, Loyola has upgraded my scholarship to a full tuition scholarship.
    Here’s the breakdown of both schools according to Law School Transparency

    Tulane:
    Employment score is 62.8%
    And unemployment score is 22%
    They do have a larger alumni network than Loyola, and I’ve been able to reach out to alumni who live in the area that I want to practice (San Francisco)

    Loyola:
    Employment score is 45.4%
    And the unemployment score is 32.4%
    The full scholarship sounds appealing, but I just don’t want my law degree to be limited and I don’t want to be confined to Louisiana. I feel that Tulane is a more nationally recognized school and would be more helpful in getting me a corporate/ip position. I also noticed that in the last class most of Tulane’s students went out of state, with 56/199 remaining in Louisiana.

  • Dominique Williams
    April 04, 2018 at 8:38am

    Hi Dave,
    So…I got into Tulane Law School, ranked (51), and they offered me a $25,000/year scholarship.
    Their tuition and fees cost about $56,000
    My debt would be about $100k coming out of law school if I attend.
    I also got into a much lower ranked school Loyola New Orleans (142, i think?), and they offered me a $36,000 scholarship that would cover 82% of my tuition and fees.
    My debt would be $24k coming out of law school if I were to attend the lower ranked school.
    I’m not exactly sure what type of law I want to practice as of now, but I do know that I do not want to stay in Louisiana.
    What do I do?

  • Dave Killoran
    April 04, 2018 at 4:16pm

    Hi Mark,

    Great, thanks for the extra info! I actually didn’t see the cost comment as it posted while I was replying, so that’s very useful.

    In a case where any possible interest in academia is considered, it’s often about the clerkship jobs that you can obtain. In fact, the “prestige” factor of a school often can be assessed by the clerkship and biglaw hiring percentages, since those tend to be the two most desirable job types. Schools that place well in those arenas are showing that the best employers want their grads. Let’s look at each school:

    USC Clerkships: 3% (includes state)
    USC Biglaw: 38%
    From: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/usc/jobs/

    WashU Clerkships: ~7.5%
    WashU Biglaw: 29%
    From: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/washu/jobs/ and http://law.wustl.edu/career_services/employmentdata/EmploymentSummary-20…

    So, at first glance, things look a bit mixed. USC places better in large firms, but that’s likely a function of being so proximate to the large legal markets in LA and SF. WUSTL does better in clerkships, but that’s likely also a product of being in the midwest and having access to the slightly less competitive courts (as opposed to California, where USC grads compete frequently with Stanford and Berkeley Law grads; that said, a clerkship is a clerkship just like a biglaw job is a biglaw job no matter the reason).

    WashU, not surprisingly, hires better into NYC, but again that’s likely a function of many USC grads deciding to stay in CA (about 89% hired into California).

    So, it’s really a toss up in many ways, and in cases like this, I always give the same advice: pick the school you feel best about on a personal level. Your performance in schools–especially that first 1L term–means everything to hiring, and if you can hit the ground running and do better at one school over the other, that opens all the doors. Both schools are good and can get doors open; you need to choose the one that allow you to perform as well as possible, and how happy and comfortable you are at the school plays a big role in that.

    Tough decision, but I hope that helps. Please let me know what you decide. Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 04, 2018 at 4:29pm

    Hi Dominique,

    Thanks for the question! there are never any sure things, but in this case, you want to look at what that monetary difference translates to when it comes down to jobs, especially since you do not intend to stay in Louisiana. Here’s the overview and job data:

    Loyno: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/loyola-neworleans/
    Tulane: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/tulane/

    In brief:

    Loyno:
    Large Firm 3.7%
    Small Firm 19%
    Federal Clerkship 1.9%
    Public Service 11.6%

    Tulane:
    Large Firm 12.1%
    Small Firm 11.1%
    Federal Clerkship 9%
    Public Service 14.1%

    So, that $75K difference does result in a demonstrable difference in hiring (especially into the more desirable large firms and clerkships). What about where the grads end up?

    Loyno:
    Loyola University New Orleans has reported the location of 98.3% of employed graduates.

    LA: 74.7%
    TX: 2.9%
    FL: 2.9%

    Tulane:
    Tulane University has reported the location of 57.6% of employed graduates.

    LA: 33.7%
    TX: 14.5%
    CA: 9.3%

    You start to get a clearer picture here (although a fair share of Tulane data is missing, it seems, so I’d look more closely into that): Loyno is sending grads into Louisiana at a high rate, whereas Tulane is allowing grads to move away at a much better rate.

    I’m debt averse, but it would seem the outcomes in terms of jobs and locations look a lot better for you at Tulane than Loyno, even with the monetary difference in place.

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Helen
    April 05, 2018 at 3:33pm

    Thanks for the reply, Dave.
    At this point I am leaning (very slightly) towards Northeastern because I did also get a better feeling when I was there, but I’m definitely not discounting BU. I did go and talk with an admissions counselor at BU who basically said “it’s a personal decision”, so it does seem like there is no objective right choice here. I also haven’t yet heard from BC which is very frustrating as their deposit deadline is April 10th.
    Thanks again,
    Helen

  • Kate
    April 05, 2018 at 3:50pm

    Hi!

    I’m really struggling with my decision as I get down to the deadline wire, and would love your advice on this.

    For background: I’ve been offered 135k at Georgetown, 45k at NYU, and will probably receive probably a financial aid package similar to NYU at Columbia, but Columbia is still reviewing aid and scholarships.

    I am interested in government work, so DC could be a good place to be- and of course a difference of 90k is frightening- but I’m having a hard time closing the door on NYU or CLS because of my career plans. I’m planning to start off in Biglaw and then transition to government work- I’m interested in climate law and policymaking in particular. A dream might be State, or an agency, or maybe legislative. Plans could potentially change depending on debt, but I’ll almost certainly start with Biglaw either way- and I would love to leave the door open for clerkships at some point. And since I’m interested in climate law, I might also think about international work.

    I get the sense that name clout could matter more down the line with this sort of plan- especially with CLS’s placement in Biglaw, and NYU’s with clerkships. I will note that all three schools have strong environmental programs and centers for climate study–Columbia’s is especially well regarded.

    Am I completely off base here? Should I just take the money and run? It’s definitely a lot of money, but it’s not a full scholarship- I’d still owe 120k at graduation.

    Thank you!!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 05, 2018 at 9:17pm

    Hi Kate,

    Thanks for the question! Those are great options, and I assume you’ve looked closely at the job reports from each school? Here’s a quick comparison: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/gulc/nyu/columbia/

    Here’s what concerns me about GULC: for a “top” school, their biglaw hiring isn’t stellar. If your plan is to specifically go at Biglaw first, then it’s hard to argue against Columbia as the premier name among your choices. The hiring outcomes aren’t really even close, and you can see inside the numbers as to how elite they are compared to both NYU and Gtown.

    I’m always concerned about debt, but if you go to CLS and perform reasonably well, your outcomes will be far broader than Georgetown without question, and NYU but to a lesser extent.

    There’s no right answer here that anyone else can give you, so carefully consider those career plans and then weigh the debt directly: that’s the cost of having those higher percentages at the end.

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Kate
    April 05, 2018 at 11:22pm

    Thank you for your response, Dave! I really appreciate your insight.

    I will say that Biglaw isn’t my be all end all as a career, but it is definitely a part of my plan, because I hope to be well-positioned for a senior role in public service/government/(more specifically) climate policy one day. Because of that, I had a suspicion that Columbia (or NYU) might better position me to build the career that I want, starting with a more preferable Biglaw placement. From what you’ve said, it sounds as though there’s truth behind that suspicion!

    That being said, I do know that GULC has a good network in DC-where I would likely end up working anyway-and there is of course the opportunity to intern during the semester. But it sounds as though, in order to position myself to be as flexible and far-reaching as I wish, CLS (or perhaps NYU) is still the wiser choice(?)

    Thank you for that helpful link to the LST comparison! I actually hadn’t used that feature before.

    Thanks again,
    Kate

  • Nathan
    April 06, 2018 at 1:43pm

    Hello,

    I have enjoyed reading your article and the conversations in the comment section. After narrowing down my options and excluding offers from other schools, I am still having a bit of difficulty deciding between two law schools. Washington University in St. Louis has offered me a $105,000 scholarship and at Saint Louis University I have been offered a full tuition scholarship. Both schools will have similar cost of living expenses so my decision is whether or not to incur approximately $55,000 in debt to attend WashU.

    WashU was my top choice when I began the application process. My undergraduate degree was earned at SLU and I liked attending school in the St. Louis area. I am comfortable on both campuses and would be happy attending either school.

    I am not sure where I what to practice but I do want to remain in the mid-west or upper south. Also, I am not sure of the type of law I want to practice but am considering looking at JAG corps, prosecution or criminal defense. If I attend SLU I would choose their Healthcare Law program (ranked #1) with a dual degree in Healthcare Administration to increase my employment opportunities. Because the schools’ rankings are so different, I think I would need to set myself apart from other applicants if I attend SLU.

    Are the advantages offered by attending WashU worth $55,000 debt, or would it be better to attend SLU and incur zero debt?

    I appreciate any advise that you can offer me.

    Nathan

  • Dave Killoran
    April 08, 2018 at 6:53pm

    Hi Kate,

    The thing about Biglaw is that it’s easier to get in right at the start, so even though that’;s not your main goal, if it’s a step you intend to use as a springboard to policy-related jobs, you give yourself an advantage with the bigger name.

    I’d also look quite carefully at GULC’s placement rates both in law firms and internships, as well as how many students they hire. It’s a big school, they bring in a lot of transfers each year, and at times their numbers aren’t fantastic.

    I love the DC area and think Georgetown is a great school, so I’m not anti-GULC in any way, it’s just that CLS is definitely a cut above, so you should very carefully look at the costs involved and the general trend of job results.

    Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 08, 2018 at 7:05pm

    Hi Nathan,

    Thanks for the question! In a sense, your choice here is the central discussion we’ve been having throughout the comments, and as you probably noticed, the answer is never black and white. That said, sometimes the shades of grey lean in one direction moreso than the other, and I tend to feel that’s the case here.

    First, a direct comparison of the schools is useful: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/washu/slu/. I want you to look at a few things, such as the employment rating (WashU’s is demonstrably better) as well as things like the large firm rating and clerkships rating. That biglaw/clerkship rating is a sort of measuring stick for how the school is viewed on the bigger stage, and WashU is the clear winner here. Rankings too, show that same positions: WashU is #18 and SLU is #88, and a comparison of the LSAT/GPA numbers shows a significant difference. WashU is getting better students and is viewed in a much more positive light overall.

    So, the real question reduces to, “is that higher ranking and better reputation/placement worth $55K?” I tend to think it is. If it was $100K or $150K, that would be a much tougher question in my opinion, but $55K doesn’t worry me as much, and you can see a *definite* difference in what you are getting.

    One caveat: just keep in mind this is all about how your perform at each school, which is something we can’t know. If you chose SLU and just crushed it, you’d likely end up better off than (or at least the same as) if you just did middle-of-the-pack at WashU.

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Justin
    April 09, 2018 at 7:44pm

    Reading the comments has been helpful in assisting me evaluate my own decision, so thanks for taking the time to offer your advice. Hopefully, you’ll be able to let me know what you think of my options.

    I’ve been offered full scholarships to UNLV, Arizona, and Florida. Also, I have a 36k per year scholarship offer (56k tuition) to Emory. I have no desire to do biglaw after graduation. I’d feel most comfortable living in Las Vegas (I have family and friends there), but I’m fairly confident I’d be content anywhere, if I were able to secure a job that I felt was stimulating and meaningful when I graduated. Additionally, I’m 37 years old, so the thought of an extra 60k in debt (at least) from Emory when I graduate at 41 feels a bit scary.

    I’ve looked at the LST Reports for each school, and they seem comparable. The main exception is that Emory places substantially more students in biglaw, but again, I’m not interested in working for a big law firm. Do you think Emory’s higher ranking would justify an additional 60k-70k in debt for me? Are there big differences between UNLV, Arizona, and Florida that I’m missing? Thanks!

  • Nathan
    April 09, 2018 at 8:25pm

    Thank you for responding! Basically, I had the exact same thoughts, but it was validating to see that someone else agreed with me. I recently went to an admitted student’s day at WashU to get a feel for some of my potential future classmates. Everyone I met seemed pretty nice, and I was fairly impressed by some of the presentations given by the faculty. I will probably end up going there. Again, thank you for the advice. I really appreciate it!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 09, 2018 at 10:05pm

    Great, glad I was able to help! Enjoy WashU and go knock it out of the park 🙂

  • John Woods
    April 10, 2018 at 5:44am

    Dave,

    I am considering attending law school at the University of South Carolina or the University of Miami. I am from the midwest but attended undergrad in the South. I have many familial ties to South Carolina and have an interest in practicing in the state, however I am concerned about the legal market in South Carolina and believe the University of Miami would allow me to pursue job opportunities around the country. I have been granted a scholarship at the university of South Carolina that is equivalent to me receiving in-state tuition. At Miami I was not granted a scholarship at all and would be paying upwards of 50k$ a year. Should I consider going to Miami which is a higher ranked national school or take the money at South Carolina and possibly be limited to practicing in South Carolina and surrounding states?

    Thanks so much for the reply!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 11, 2018 at 12:46am

    Hi John,

    Thanks for the question! This is really where you should put it all in a spreadsheet and get an exact assessment of total yearly costs and job outcomes. South Carolina is about $28K+ a year vs Miami at $50K+ a year, so you are looking at over $65K total difference just from tuition, and that’s not even getting into cost of living. Yet, a comparison of the two schools shows that Miami is only ranked #65 and USC is #88. That’s a heck of a lot to pay for a school only 20+ places higher but still not even in the T50. And, employment-wise, Miami isn’t world beating when compared to USC either: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/miami/southcarolina/. I’d also look at the job placement for both schools, because that’s clearly on your mind as well.

    I’m not telling you what to do here, but after looking at all the expenses, you need to see if the 23 places higher ranking is worth the tens of thousands of dollars in cost difference. I don’t think it would be for many people, but this isn’t many people, it’s you. You have to go to the school where you will feel best and most comfortable.

    I hope that helps. Thanks!

  • Paul
    April 11, 2018 at 9:56pm

    Hi,

    I am going to USC and it is my freshman year. USC has this program where if you can finish your undergrad in 3 years, while maintaining a 3.8 GPA minimum, then you can not take LSAT and go to their law school. You apply for the program in your junior year, and typically 6 or 7 students apply. There is no set quota, but usually the student that does not get in just has not done interesting stuff on their resume or failed to show interest in USC Law.

    Would you recommend doing this USC 3+3 program, or hold a high GPA and take the LSAT and apply to more law schools?

    The 3+3 program in the end only saves me about $2,000 because I have a lot of aid. Not saving $75,000 like other students here.

  • Dave Killoran
    April 11, 2018 at 11:23pm

    Hi Paul,

    Thanks for the question! I’m familiar with the 3+3, and I always tell Freshman the same thing: wait and see. Over the next year or two a lot can happen, but there are two things to keep an eye on (assuming your GPA makes the minimum:

    Your LSAT score: not now, but in a year, take a practice LSAT under timed conditions and see how you do. the appeal of the 3+3 is that you avoid taking the LSAT, but if you have a 3.8+ AND a high LSAT, then you are throwing away a lot of money by going this route. So, we need to get a better sense of how you will do on the LSAT in a few years (again, don’t worry about it now–it’s premature). On the other hand, if you struggle with the LSAT (and it’s a tough test that many smart people find difficult), then perhaps this is a great way to get in through the back door.

    How you like USC: after three years at the same school, you might want a change or alternately you might love it. You can’t make a decision on that now, you have to give it some time. But keep an eye on how you like the school and the environs as that can have an affect on your decision.

    The best part of your position is that you have time and don’t have to decide now. So, for the time being, focus on keeping those grades high: they are a necessary condition to you even having this option.

    Please let me know if that helps and good luck!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 18, 2018 at 4:42pm

    Hi Justin,

    Sorry for the delay in replying! Yours is a tough question, and I’m not sure there’s a clearly right—or wrong—direction to take here. The base comparison between Arizona, Florida, and UNLV shows a lot of similarities, although you are correct about the biglaw placement differential at UNLV (on the other hand, they perform better on the clerkship front, which could partially be a product of location: see https://www.lstreports.com/compare/arizona/florida/unlv/). I will note that Florida is a larger school than either Arizona or UNLV, and graduates just under 3 times as many students each year (despite that, UF is on an upward trend and should see some rise in the rankings in the next few years).

    So, assuming for a moment that those schools are pretty similar, let’s look at two things you said:

    1. ” I’m 37 years old, so the thought of an extra 60k in debt (at least) from Emory when I graduate at 41 feels a bit scary.”

    I think this is an important consideration, because your earning horizon is shorter than for younger grads. Given all else you’ve mentioned, I have a hard time justifying taking on debt when you can avoid it by going to other schools where you’d feel just as comfortable. Yes, Emory does well at biglaw, but the rest of their employment numbers aren’t so great as to suggest it’s a great trade to take on debt.

    2. “I’d feel most comfortable living in Las Vegas (I have family and friends there)…”

    I am a big fan of attending the school where you will feel comfortable, since comfort often helps ease that transition you go through as a 1L. I like the fact that you’d be content anywhere (which is probably also a partial product of you being 37) but it sounds like you are already familiar with Las Vegas and have a support system there. If you can perform well out of the gate, it makes a HUGE difference to your employment prospects, because 1L grades are everything when it comes to jobs.

    I think that your base question was about passing up Emory, and while I don’t have all the data, what I see tells me that it wouldn’t be a bad choice for you to do that. As for the remaining schools, I see advantages to each one, so it really comes down to how you feel about each, but a free education from any one of them is hard to beat 🙂

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Paul
    April 19, 2018 at 1:40am

    Hi,

    Thank you that is very helpful! I have thought about waiting and seeing, but there is some commitment to it. I came in to school with a lot of AP credit, but I still need to do 20 units a semester to graduate on the 3 year track. I would take summer courses, but I need to work and USC has limited financial aid during the summer. So, I can commit to 20 units, which is basically only doing my major and no fun electives, or I can decide to tone it down and enjoy the four years and apply normally. I may try studying for the LSAT this summer and test it out.

    Thank you again,

    Everest

  • Dave Killoran
    April 19, 2018 at 4:02pm

    That makes sense. Coincidentally, this might help you a bit: https://blog.powerscore.com/lsat/how-should-freshman-and-sophomores-in-c…. You will want to speed up the process there, but it gives you some steps to take now that might help.

    Good luck!

  • Alessandra Stevens
    April 24, 2018 at 1:17pm

    Hi Dave thank you so much for your article and the kind comments to everyone’s questions.
    I have a bit of an odd decision in front of me, but it started as a money vs. prestige question so I hope this is the right place for this question.
    I’m a non-traditional law student (will be turning 30 in the fall) who has been working in non-profit administration & policy advocacy since graduating in 2011. My aim in going back to school now is to get access to more substantive policy work at national organizations based in NYC, D.C. etc. It is fairly clear to me that to do that I need a JD.
    I got into UCLA with a small scholarship, but still would need 90K in loans just to cover tuition, not taking into account COL. Given that I will have fewer earning years, and am committed to working in public interest, I’m concerned about taking on that level of debt.
    I also got into Northeastern Law with a full ride. I was attracted to NUSL because of its public interest focus, health law concentration and co-op program. However I’m nervous about the employment statistics with only about 57% employment after graduation.
    Northeastern is also attractive because my fiancé is moving to Boston for her graduate degree…
    I also applied to public health degrees suspecting correctly that my near perfect GRE score would mean I was a more attractive candidate. I also have the option of completing an MPH for free from a prestigious institution and reapplying to law school again in two years with better scores/credentials.
    However, that would mean graduating law school at 35. I’m wondering if it is wise to take my free education at Northeastern and run with it, or listen to friends in law school telling me I should try for T-20 if I want to get a job at the orgs i’m interested in.
    Any advice would be most appreciated!
    Thank you!

  • Justin
    April 24, 2018 at 6:49pm

    Thanks so much for your thoughts on my situation! Your assessment makes complete sense to me. I think I’m going to opt to go to UNLV. Las Vegas feels like the best fit for me, and I’m very comfortable with the thought of living there after law school. Additionally, UNLV offered me an extra 5K per year on top of my full scholarship. Thanks again for your help!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 24, 2018 at 9:07pm

    Great, glad I could help, and that’s awesome that they offered you even more money! Congrats!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 24, 2018 at 9:17pm

    Hi Alessandra,

    This is a difficult question because your post-grad aims are so specific. However, it’s difficult for me since I have limited experience with that sector; for you, there’s an avenue that can help make this decision much easier. What I would do is look at people who have the jobs you seek. you already know a JD is more or elss a requirement, so now go a step farther adn look at the schools that they graduated from. And, weight the more recent grads more heavily in your analysis. someone who got a law degree 30 years ago is far less of a barometer than someone who just got their degree 5 years ago. I suspect that if there is a T20 bias within the profession, you’ll pick up on it rather quickly, and if there is not one, you’ll see that quickly as well.

    On that note, remember that general law grads have been trained in recent years to focus on top schools as the job market tightened. That could very well be the case in your policy field, but it might not be also. that’s why looking at job holders will give you clear insight into how the field views these degrees.

    As for the MPH degree and then law school, you are right to be concerned about pushing your horizon back even further. I would make the same analysis here, and observe how many people with those degrees are doing the work you want to do, and, equally important, how many are doing that work without that degree. The combination is so specialized that no one can give you a good sense of this other than people in the field.

    I hope that helps. Please let me know, thanks!

  • Tori H
    April 25, 2018 at 12:39am

    Good evening!

    I am writing because I feel totally stuck between two choices for law school: University of Cincinnati, and Cleveland-Marshall College of Law. The benefits of each one seem to really balance out, and I am having trouble figuring out which is better. I am aspiring to work in the public interest area.

    At UC, I would be receiving a $20,000/year scholarship. Based on my calculations using AccessLex for Cost of Living and my current loans, I would owe a little less than $90K total after undergrad and law school. The school is ranked 65 in the nation, and is a top 40 public law school. Additionally, I have been offered a paid fellowship with the Innocence Project for the summer after my 1L and part time during my 2L, which is the exact type of work I would really want to do after graduating.

    At Cleveland Marshall, I have been offered a guaranteed full scholarship as a part of the Dean’s Law and Leadership Fellowship, so long as I maintain good academic standing. I could live at home for free, or very cheap at a friend’s apartment, which would allow me to start paying off my current undergraduate loans. I also just really love Cleveland, and would have a hard time leaving! However, this school is ranked far lower (114) and lacks a lot of the same established experiential programs that are at Cincinnati. They also have lower employment statistics (50.2% score on lst reports, vs 71.2% at Cincinnati).

    My main concern is that by taking on more debt at Cincinnati, I will be unable to take the jobs I am most interested in because of my payments. However, if I attend Cleveland Marshall, I fear that I will not be able to find the employment that I desire. I am at a complete toss up right now, and would love any insights into what might be the better path!

    Best,
    Tori

  • Alessandra Stevens
    April 25, 2018 at 10:10am

    Hi Dave,
    Thank you for the swift reply! I apologize, it is a bit of a specialized question. I would say amongst more recent grads it is true there is a T20 if not a T10 bias. Having gotten into UCLA and waitlisted at a T10 I think I could get into that tier if I reapplied in two years, but probably would have to take on debt. I am trying to weigh the opportunity cost of waiting and graduating later vs. going now to a lower ranked school with somewhat concerning employment numbers. Of Northeastern’s grads who are employed, the vast majority (25%) are employed in public interest, so that is good, but still a 28% underemployment rate is concerning to me.
    As to your second question, many people working in my area of interest have both the JD & MPH, with some only having one of the other, but the vast majority who only have one degree have the JD, and those that have both typically only worked for two years not seven before going back to school, so are graduating at 30 with two degrees. I have gotten mixed advice so far as to whether my experience will help or hurt me. ( As a note if I didn’t say above, I would also be getting a full ride for the MPH)
    Can I prevail upon your expertise in the changing nature of the legal job market? My thought is that if I wait and reapply more law schools will be accepting the GRE which will help my numbers, but also presumably means there will be many more applicants who also have great GRE scores and passable LSAT scores. I am trying to weigh whether this means my chances are better or worse. Also, I know there has been a huge bump in law applications this year, and it seems more people accepting offers, meaning if I go to school now I will be entering the job market at the same time as that pool, and from a less competitive school. But if I wait, I’ll be graduating two years later and those people will already be in the job market.

    Given all this what do you think is the strategic decision?
    Thank you,
    Alessandra

  • Andrew
    April 25, 2018 at 9:08pm

    Hi,

    Thank you for your posts, this page has been very helpful. I was hoping you could give me some advice for my situation. I see you’ve already addressed several issues that are very similar to mine and I’ve read the posts for reference, but my situation is a little different and I’m wondering what you have to say.

    I want to go to school in New York City and I also plan to work there after graduating. I’d be finishing school at the age of 27. I am between Fordham (which would leave me with about $150,000 of debt after graduation) and St. John’s. (which would leave me with about $23,000 in debt after graduation). This is after negotiating with schools so these are final offers. I live in the area and living expenses/transport are basically irrelevant in this decision.

    I’ve read the LST reports and I see Fordham places more in Biglaw. Biglaw is currently appealing to me and it is something that I would like to have the option of pursuing, but I am not committed to it. I am much more concerned with having better legal career opportunities in general, not just Biglaw opportunities. I believe that Fordham would generally provide me with greater legal career opportunities but I’m having a difficult time determining whether those extra opportunities are worth an additional $127,000. I saw from an earlier post that in your opinion, finishing Fordham with about $195,000 in debt would probably not be worth it. But here in my case the debt would be somewhat smaller and I’m wondering if you think that changes my situation at all.

    Thank you so much for your help!

  • HELP A
    April 25, 2018 at 9:23pm

    I received full tuition scolarships at St. Johns U and Penn State Law (The newer campus). I got into U of MD and American U as well. I am still waiting to hear from GULC. Everyone wants their deposit RIGHT NOW and I’ve already extended the deadline multiple times. I am interested in doing Law in DC as well as NYU potentially. I am draw to UMD because of the great faculty staff and alumni base and I am interested in health law. Does Penn State pull well and does the name recognition of Penn State help?! Should I just defer to next year and try taking the test again and try getting into my dream school Columbia?

    Do networks matter more than a school’s ranking? Is St. Johns well regarded along the East Coast? Can UMD pull a Big Law Firm? Should I just wait for GULC? I really don’t know what to do.

  • Alessandra Stevens
    April 25, 2018 at 9:36pm

    Complicating matters further: I was just waitlisted at two top 5 schools. I’m very (very) debt averse given i’ve been working in the non-profit world and know what kind of salary I can expect, but if those come through it seems hard to turn down….

  • Nikki Heagney
    April 25, 2018 at 10:00pm

    Hi Andrew – take my advice with a grain of salt but I think I’m the poster above you’re referring to with respect to fordham. I decided to go to fordham and it has a very high placement in biglaw if thats what you want to do. I think 30-40%. There is less pressure to get a high gpa to interview with the big firms – I think the gpa “cut off” is about 3.3 (b+) whereas I am assuming its higher at St. Johns (meaning more pressure to get the best grades). There is always pressure for good grades – but its comforting knowing that you can get straight B+ and still get an interview with a large firm. I also know a 3L who got terrible grades in her first year and was able to get a biglaw interview (and offer) in her third year. Not ideal – but she’s shown me it’s possible. Fordham is very well connected and there are a ton of firms who come to interview on campus. I love the city, the campus, the people. Upperclassmen are so incredibly helpful. Just my 2 cents – I’m rushing because its finals time and its incredibly stressful but I’ve met a lot of great people here and have been afforded a lot of opportunities and if you’d like to talk further let me know and I’ll give you my email. N

  • Dave Killoran
    April 25, 2018 at 11:36pm

    Hi Alessandra,

    To be honest, I’m not sure what the best strategic decision is, mainly because there are so many moving parts here, and what you’ve told me about your field isn’t definitive enough to make a judgment. So instead, I’ll tell you what we *think* will happen in the legal field as well as with law school applications in general. hopefully, that will give you a better perspective on your choices!

    First, there has been an increase in applicants this year, but the problem has moreso been that the applicants in the 165 to 180 range increased significantly. So, you had more applicants but more applicants in particular with great LSAT scores. Lots of reasons for that, but the new no-limit–LSAT policy helped a lot there. Next year we expect that bubble to get smaller, meaning we expect about the same number of applicants but not as many in that high score range.

    Second, despite that increase this year, law schools are still not at the capacity they were 6-7 years ago, and so they have the ability to take more applicants. In other words, they can meet increased demand, and that mitigates the problem that larger applicant pools pose to applicants in general.

    Third, if the ABA stays on course, the GRE will begin to become more accepted. That means that right now it’s still really about LSAT scores, but in 2-3 years the GRE will be much closer to equal footing. If you went for that MPH now, if you tried law school later then you’d see a benefit from those high GREs.

    Last, the legal field in general is name conscious and always has been, and you’ve already seen that in the employment stats you have cited. The bigger names *tend* to get better overall jobs, but keep in mind that it is always about individual performance. The top grads at Northeastern do just fine, and the bottom grads at UCLA will struggle. 1L grades are the world, and no matter where you go that will be the key to the job opportunities you have.

    In the final analysis, I don’t think I can make a definitive call here. There are too many variables floating around, and I feel like you have so much more of the relevant info (including your exact debt tolerance, your true job desires, etc). That’s a sort of cop-out on my part, but I think I’d be remiss to state a strong opinion when I don’t have one that I feel certain about 🙂

    Hopefully this helped a little bit though. Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 25, 2018 at 11:39pm

    Thanks for weighing in Nikki, and you make an excellent point about grades! I’m also glad things are working out, which is great proof to everyone that you have to go with your gut feeling in all of these choices 🙂

    Good luck on finals!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 26, 2018 at 12:09am

    Hi Andrew,

    I was glad to see Nikki weigh in with some thoughts, because there is no substitute for hearing from someone at the school, especially someone who faced a similar decision.

    Going back to my comment above in reply to Nikki, the point I made was that it wasn’t an easy choice, and I didn’t feel Cardozo was a slam dunk by any means. As I said, there literally was “no best answer.” Your case is actually not much different. The thing with Nikki’s choice was she was looking at an extra $100K to attend Fordham, which, as it turns out, is very much the same situation you are in with Fordham and St. Johns. I’ve stated elsewhere that I’m debt averse when it comes to these decisions, but you also have to know exactly what you are paying for, as well as whether that’s worth it to *you.* There are times when paying more is somewhat obviously the best decision and others where it is not. In your case, I get the feeling you are leaning toward Fordham since the biglaw employment numbers are better (an undeniable point, as seen here: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/stjohns/fordham/) and more or less want to know if it’s okay to take on that $127K. There’s a good chance it could be, and also a chance it’s not—this is the unfortunate problem everyone faces when making these decisions. The one advantage you have over Nikki is that even though your margin costs are the same (the $100K), your overall cost is lower since you will come out with $127K total. That figure may be reasonable enough to you to make it worth the much better big firm/clerkship chances.

    I suppose that’s a long-winded way of saying that the lower overall debt does make a difference in my opinion, although again you have to be comfortable with what that looks like on a monthly basis. I always say plan for the worst as far as 1L grades, that way you know the worst possible outcome, but fortunately most people don’t end up in the worst-case scenario.

    I’m not sure that’s a perfectly clear answer, but hopefully it helps a bit. Please let me know. Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 26, 2018 at 12:29am

    Hi Tori,

    Thanks for the question, and good job on using AccessLex–they have some good info 🙂

    There are several points in this decision that I find interesting:

    1. Cleveland-Marshall’s employment numbers: they aren’t great. You made note of it, and for other readers, the head-to-head comparison is here: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/cincinnati/cleveland/. I think you are right to be very wary, although a free education is certainly a great counter-balance to those numbers.

    2. The Cleveland-Marshall attrition rate. It’s over 5% yearly (7.4% last year), and that to me is always a bad sign. Good schools don’t lose students at that rate, and you can see the UC number was just 1% last year. They work to keep the struggling students and not many of the top student transfer out.

    3. The total debt at UC: it’s under $100K, so that makes it a bit more manageable. If we were looking at $130K or 150K, then I’d be far more concerned, but your number isn’t entirely unmanageable.

    4. The fact that both UC has set you up to have great 1L summer experience with a paid fellowship. This is hard to beat if it’s what interests you! And, obtaining that 1L Summer job is for most people, fraught with tension. Here they have you covered.

    5. The fact that you love Cleveland. I’m a believer that people perform best when they are happy and comfortable, and Cleveland looks like a great setup for you. Could you get into a similar groove at Cincy? Probably, but only you know for sure.

    Overall, I have some doubts about CM Law but they have risen in recent rankings, which is a sign they are working on it (and their offer to you reflects that). I also think UC is a solid school, and there is a lot to be said for having better options coming out of school. Is that worth $90K? I’d be inclined to think so, but critics would point out that at CM, even if you can’t find a job you still aren’t saddled with a debt load. So, overall I lean towards UC, but consider that debt carefully.

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Andrew
    April 26, 2018 at 8:10pm

    Hi Nikki and Dave,

    Thank you so much for posting, I really appreciate the input! This is certainly a tough decision with no clear answer! But any information I can get will surely help.

    It’s interesting to hear about Fordham‘s lower pressure to get high grades to get a Biglaw interview. However, I’m basing my decision between Fordham and St. John’s more on what opportunities each school offers in the private sector that aren’t Biglaw because I can’t count on being at the top (or top 30%) at either school. I see a lot is possible at Fordham with the example of the student with poor grades who got a great job offer anyways, but I’m assuming that is an exception rather than the norm. I’d be able to make a more informed decision if I had a better understanding of what can roughly be expected by finishing towards the middle of my class at each school. Do you have any insight into this? I unfortunately don’t have a very clear picture of this despite previous research and talking to admissions. I know this is a pretty tricky and specific question which is tough to answer, but any information would be greatly appreciated!

    I have looked into what the worst case scenario would probably look like going to Fordham and it seems manageable although certainly not desirable.

    Also, Nikki- since you decided to go to Fordham, would you mind if I ask what your thought process and rationale for doing so was despite the debt you were going to incur?

    I can talk by email too if that’s easier!
    Thank you so much!

  • Nikki Heagney
    April 26, 2018 at 9:08pm

    Hi Andrew,

    I was kind of of the mindset when applying that I would go to the best school I got into no matter the debt. Then, when the actual number-crunching made the debt seem more real, is when I starting second guessing that choice and came on here to check it out. I decided to go with my gut and go to the best school I got into (which was fordham) but I can’t say I would have followed my gut if I was accepted at a higher ranked school with 300k debt. Like Dave said its whats best for YOU – and I think for me I was willing to take the risk that I might end up paying my debt off longer if I didn’t get the grades. If you’re really not willing to take the risk then don’t do it just for the name because years from now unless its ivy league not many people care about the name anyway.

  • Dave Killoran
    April 26, 2018 at 9:23pm

    Hi Andrew,

    Thanks for the reply! The answer you seek here isn’t capable of being given in a specific fashion, and the reason is that the legal hiring environment can’t be predicted three years out with any accuracy. If things are great, more doors will be open whereas if things are bad then fewer doors will be open, as you would expect. However, that said, the typical belief is that, in comparison, graduating in the middle of the class at Fordham would result in generally better opportunities than graduating in the middle of the class at St. Johns regardless of the market (unless it’s so bad that no jobs at all are available, as in a major economic crisis, which is unlikely).

    I agree that the worst case scenario isn’t desirable, but if it is manageable then that’s a valuable piece of information for you as you ponder this decision.

    Thanks!

  • Andrew
    May 01, 2018 at 4:16pm

    Thank you so much!

  • Dave Killoran
    May 05, 2018 at 7:33pm

    Hi Help A,

    So sorry, but I missed these questions somehow! I will try to help, but there are so many questions here and some of them are so complex here I would suggest you think about talking to an admissions professional for more focused and specific advice. I’m not sure I can cover all the bases here is why 🙂

    First, can UMD pull a biglaw job? Yes, but not at the rate of other schools: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/maryland/jobs/. That’s 9% of their grads hitting biglaw. As you sit here debating the possibilities, I would suggest you do a deep dive into the hiring data at each school, because you are looking at hard $$ vs job outcomes decisions in the coming months.

    Does Penn State pull well in general? Dickinson’s stats can be found here: http://www.abarequireddisclosures.org/EmploymentOutcomes.aspx, and the numbers aren’t amazing. In 2017, there were 61 grads, and 33 practiced in Pennsylvania, and 4 in NY. 4 went to firms with 100 or more attorneys, and 12 went to clerkships (3 federal, 9 stats/local). Everyone knows the name Penn State, but Penn State–either as Penn State Law or Dickinson–is though of as being in the upper echelon and the stats reflect that. If you are looking to go outside Pennsylvania, it’s possible but not easy.

    St. Johns is next, and they do a bit better with large firm hiring–17.8%, but overall hiring is great. St Johns can be tough because you have multiple other schools in NYC (Columbia, NYU, Fordham for starters, not to mention Cornell in-state) with better reputations.

    As you already know, GULC outpaces all these schools, so it’s worth waiting, and often students will hedge by depositing at their second choice school while they wait for their top remaining choice. That is probably our best call here.

    If waiting a year and retaking is an option, it might make a difference on two fronts if you can obtain a higher LSAT score: you might be able to get into a “better” school and you can obtain better and more robust financial aid packages.

    Go through the jobs reports on the 509 disclosures site and LSTReports–take a close look at what each school is offering you vs what the job outcomes are. that is your best guide here.

    Good luck!

  • Nick
    June 15, 2018 at 5:09pm

    Hi Dave!

    I am a law student from Singapore. I graduated from the National Uni of Singapore recently with a law degree and reasonable grades in law school (not too bad but nothing spectacular. I will be doing the bar exam here in Singapore and then my pupillage at an intl law firm.

    My long term goal however is to move to the US and practice there. As such, I am hoping to go do an LLM first (aiming for Northwestern, BU or UCLA). I hope to do well in the LLM and make contacts at the uni so that I am eventually able to transfer to the JD program. Do you think this is a good idea?

  • Payton
    June 18, 2018 at 8:57pm

    Hi Dave,

    What an appropriate article for the thousands of students who are grappling with this very question! I am wrestling between a full ride (with a stipend and healthcare) to the University of Tennessee (ranked 65th) or sticker price admittance of 55k to Emory Law in Georgia (ranked 22nd). I moved to Tennessee to attend undergrad and have since gotten married so I will likely remain in the region, though not neccesarily TN, to practice. I was lucky enough to have a full ride for my undergrad and my husband and I currently have no debt. What do you think?

  • Dave Killoran
    June 19, 2018 at 3:41pm

    Hi Nick,

    Thanks for the message, and hello to you in beautiful Singapore! Let me ask you a question here: is your idea to get an LLM based on the fact that you want to keep working while waiting to get into a JD program, or is it solely aimed at using that to get into a JD program? If it is solely to transfer, that is a viable pathway, but do your research at each school and find out how many students they typically take from the LLM program, and whether they will take them without an LSAT score (some do such as UCLA, some don’t).

    So, as long as the school takes a reasonable portion of LLMs, it’s a plan that can work well.

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks and good luck!

  • Dave Killoran
    June 19, 2018 at 4:01pm

    Hi Payton,

    Congrats on the acceptances! This is another textbook example of the free education vs debt and a “better” name decision.

    First, just for anyone reading, here’s the LST comparison: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/emory/tennessee/

    You see some interesting things there, namely that the employment scores aren’t all that dissimilar and that Tenn does better on under-employment. Emory places better into bigger firms (no surprise given the name), but Tennessee outpaces them on federal clerkships. So, you can see the different profiles, but it’s not a case where Emory is simply blowing Tennessee away.

    Second, geographically speaking, Emory is the bigger name in law circles, but these are both Southern schools and people know the Tennessee name as well. So, you don’t get as much of a name-boost with Emory that you might with a different school despite the higher ranking.

    Last, the offer Tennessee made to you is very good, since stipends aren’t often included. Emory, of course, won’t just be $55K a year, and you can see that with COL factored in (and it’s Atlanta so it’s not cheap), the estimated price tag is around $295K. That’s a high price for a school not in the T14!

    You ultimately have to make the decision based on how you feel about each school (which makes a difference since your comfort usually translates into better performance), but looking at this from a purely numerical standpoint I have a hard time seeing how Emory is worth almost $300K more than Tennessee.

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Robert Josephs
    June 26, 2018 at 4:41pm

    Hi Dave, I’ve got an NC question on which I’m hoping you might be able to provide some guidance. I didn’t get into Duke, like many others, but I did get a full tuition scholarship to NCCU, also in Durham. I’m on the waitlist at UNC as well, and took the June LSAT as a means of getting admitted there or getting money for Central.

    I plan on staying in the state after graduating, but am not sure about which field of law in which I’d like to practice. My question is this, assuming I get off the waitlist: is it worth taking anything less than a full tuition scholarship from UNC to go to a Top50 school in the same area, even if it means paying full ticket price? Especially in state, the difference between Duke and Central might be pronounced, but I’m not sure if the gap between NCCU and UNC is worth three years of tuition. Central has had some issues with the state bar though, and kicked out 110 students of this class in order to get better with their bar passage rate. I’ve reached out to a number of legal professionals throughout the system to get a good opinion from them, but I was curious if you had a strong opinion either way. Thanks in advance for the help!

    These are the LST figures for the two schools: cost of living for both would be similar, obviously both schools have great programs for social service, but these are the other stats:

    UNC: $23,049 a year tuition
    NCCU: $19,040.

    Bar passage rate: UNC: 80%
    NCCU: 55%

    LST employment score: UNC 67.7%
    NCCU 21%

    Underemployment score: UNC 17.4%
    NCCU 39.9%

    Large firm score: UNC 24%
    NCCU 4%

    Small firm score: UNC 7%
    NCCU 14%

    Clerkship score: UNC 6.7%
    NCCU 1.2 %

  • Dave Killoran
    June 30, 2018 at 6:38pm

    Hey Robert,

    Thanks for reaching out! As a Duke grad myself, I typically have strong feelings about schools in the region 🙂 However, somewhat surprisingly perhaps, I tend to be a fan of UNC (I spent a fair bit of time in Chapel Hill as an undergrad and liked the students and campus quite a bit).

    In this instance, I have real concerns about NCCU. You are right that they have been seriously struggling, and they are out of compliance with the ABA (https://www.wral.com/nccu-law-school-out-of-compliance-with-standards-am… and https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article211782004.html). This is a very serious problem, and suggests the issues at the school are not just surface ones. The ABA has been cracking down recently, and some schools have closed entirely, leaving many students high and dry. These factors alone lead me to tread with great caution.

    Even if these issues weren’t present, their employment rate is abysmal. A free education and very low hope of being employed isn’t a great outcome, especially with looming accreditation issues. Normally you want that free tuition to go along with a school that at least gives you decent employment stats, but 30.1% is rough (those are the 2017 numbers: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/nccu/unc/). Take a look at the LSAT/GPA stats as well: these are two very different student bodies in terms of prior achievement.

    UNC on the other hand gives you a name that everyone recognizes, a much larger alumni network, and of course employment stats that are night and day with NCCU, plus no accreditation problem and none expected.

    So, for me, it would be tough to pass up UNC in favor of a Tier 4 school on the edge of compliance. I hope UNC comes through with some money for you if they pull you off the waitlist, though!

    Please let me know if this helps. Thanks!

  • Robert Josephs
    July 07, 2018 at 5:21pm

    Thank you for the help! I’ll keep you updated as we get into August with what happens!

  • Michael
    August 20, 2018 at 6:44pm

    Hey Dave–huge fan, thanks for all you guys have done for my LSAT score. Seeing as this thread is over a year old, I don’t count on you seeing this but hey, who knows?

    I’m asking this question early because I’m guessing it’s one I’m gonna need answered later in this cycle.
    Planning a move to the Bay Area later this year, and considering Hastings and Berkeley. With my stats, I can comfortably get into Hastings, Berkeley I’m probably like 50-60% chance.

    If I get in to Berkeley, it’s unlikely I’d get any kind of substantial aid from them. Based on my LSAT/GPA (above 75th % for Hastings), I’d expect a decent $$ package from them.

    At what point would a discount at Hastings carry more weight than the prestige of Berkeley?

  • Dave Killoran
    August 20, 2018 at 9:50pm

    Hi Michael,

    Thanks for the message and the kind words! And welcome to the Bay Area later this year–I have family out here and spend a lot of time in the area. If you’ve never lived here before, you’ll love it 🙂

    The question you ask is a tough one, mainly because there are so many scenarios that could play out. Let’s say you get no money form Berkeley, then I’d think that if you get less than 50% tuition from Hastings, I’d start strongly looking at Berkeley. In other words, how much more will Berkeley cost you in comparison? If it’s not much more than Hastings, I’d go to Berkeley. If it’s a significant amount more, that’s when I’d start looking at Hastings more seriously. I realize that’s about as loose a guideline as you can get, but at this point, that is the general framework I’d be operating under.

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Nick
    August 25, 2018 at 10:14am

    Hi Dave! Thank you so much for your reply!

    Just to update, the LLM pathway is sortof like my back up plan to get into the JD program (because in truth the conversion rate from LLM to JD is historically low in most top schools). Instead, now I will be focusing on applying to the JD program straight. I’ll be taking the LSAT this Oct and hope to get a good score.

    But I was just wondering about a few other questions:
    1. Does the fact that I have a prior undergraduate law degree (LLB) actually enable me to apply for a US JD? I emailed Northwestern and they said yes, but I think Harvard does not allow it.

    2. How would my grades in law school as an undergraduate be seen? I understand that each school posts a rough GPA but that is in relation to the US metrics. What are my chances if I did decent in law School in Singapore? Supposedly National Uni of Singapore (NUS), Faculty of Law is the best in Asia – how does the fact that I was an above average (slightly above B) but not very spectacular be viewed in the US (in truth, though NUS enjoys a sterling reputation in Asia, I doubt people in the US have heard of it)?

    3. Does the fact that I would have qualified for a Singapore bar, have done my pupillage at an international law firm and have a whole lotta legal internships help in my application?

    4. What sort of LSAT score should I set as my target if I wish to get into one of the Top 20 Law schools in US?

    5. Lastly, does the fact that I am an international student put me at a disadvantage compared to US applicants?

    These are a lot of questions but I sincerely hope to tap into your expertise for this matter. Thanks for your earlier reply again and have a good weekend.

    With Best Regards,
    Nick

  • Dave Killoran
    August 25, 2018 at 11:04pm

    Hi Nick,

    Thanks for the reply! We’ve moved into some very specific questions, and as you can see, different schools have different policies. So, for questions #1 and #2, I have to defer to the schools you are applying to–they are the best place to get specific answers.

    #3: Yes, it will help, without question 🙂

    #4: Same scores as any US applicant: mid- to upper-160s into the 170s.

    #5: No, plenty are accepted every year!

    Thanks!

  • Nick
    September 20, 2018 at 8:43pm

    Dear Dave,

    Thank you for your reply and guidance! Maybe what I am asking next is off topic for this forum, but how would you recommend I go about for the Logical reasoning section on the LSAT.

    As a bit of background, my LSAT is in 3 weeks time and I feel alright with the RC and LG sections (thanks to your Bibles ofc; Big fan here!). However, LR is a section I am having trouble with –> usually I average around 16-19 per section, with a couple wrong and maybe missing out the last 3qns.

    I hope to hit at least 20 average before the test date. how would you recommend I go about? I have your LR Bible and have gone through it once and I have recently ordered the LR Bible Workbook which should arrive soon. Looking forward to your response!

    With Best Regards,
    Nick

  • Dave Killoran
    September 21, 2018 at 8:51pm

    Hey Nick,

    Thanks for the question! LR is such a big topic that it can be difficult to get a handle on it. The workbook will help, but in the meantime, start by reading the following:

    https://blog.powerscore.com/lsat/retaking-the-lsat-what-to-do-differentl…

    and focus on items 1, 3, 4.LR.A, and 6 in there.

    Getting better at LR can be a real grind, mainly because you need to do a lot of questions and deeply review those questions until you see the patterns in what they are doing. To help do that, track everything and revisit questions frequently–there is a ton of info that can be squeezed out of every question!

    Good luck!

  • Nick
    October 31, 2018 at 3:35pm

    Dear Dave,

    Many thanks for your reply. Just as an update. I got 163 for my LSAT, which is frankly lesser than I wanted (i was hoping at least for a 165). With that said, what do you think are my chances for BU law and USC? and should I apply for early decision to one of the Top 20 schools?

    looking forward to your response.

    With Best Regards,
    Nick

  • Nick
    October 31, 2018 at 4:47pm

    Dear Dave,

    One last thing, if I were to apply for an early decision application, how would you recommend that i apply? and is it possible to apply ED to more than 1 school? Sincerely appreciate your help!

    With Best Regards,
    Nick

  • Dave Killoran
    November 01, 2018 at 6:56pm

    Hi Nick,

    Typically if the school has a *binding* ED contract, you can only apply to that one school.

    also, here’s some info on the value of ED:

    https://blog.powerscore.com/lsat/applying-to-law-school-to-ed-or-not-to-ed

    Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    November 01, 2018 at 6:58pm

    Hi Nick,

    Your chances are slightly better at BU due to their LSAT medians being lower, if I recall correctly.

    Early decision is your call–there has to be a school you love so much you will go there for sure if accepted. That’s not always the case for everyone, so it depends on you 🙂

    Thanks!

  • Nick
    November 06, 2018 at 6:24pm

    Dear Mr. Killoran,

    Thank you so much for your response. Apologies if I’ve been asking too many questions and sincerely appreciate you taking time to answer them.

    1. Just wondering, with a 163, do you think I would stand a good chance if I applied ED to one of the lower ranked T14 schools such as Georgetown or Cornell. The L25 medians of both are 161 and 163 respectively so it seems my 163 is in the ballpark.

    2. Secondly, do you have any page on writing personal statements for law school?

    Once again, thank you so much for your help!

    With Best Regards,
    Aniket

  • Dave Killoran
    November 06, 2018 at 8:52pm

    Hi Nick,

    Thanks, it’s no problem! My vagueness comes from you are asking me questions that are so broad and have so many variables that I can’t give a great answer 🙂 Could you get in ED to one of those schools? Sure! Do I know how likely it is? Not really from just your LSAT score.

    As far as the personal statement, here’s my lengthy seminar I did on it. This contains a lot of my thoughts on how to get to a great result:

    https://vimeo.com/94191768

    Enjoy!

  • Nick
    December 12, 2018 at 6:17pm

    Dear Mr. Killoran,

    Thank you for the lengthy seminar! That 1.5 hours was definitely well-spent.

    As an aside, do you think that it would be a good idea for me to add an addenda explaining my relatively low LSAT score. The reason I wish to give is that I was simultaneously preparing for and appearing for my Bar examinations here in Singapore (which really was the case) and that if I had enough time to prep I would have done better.

    I’m just afraid of the admissions committee looking unfavorably upon it and interpreting it as if I am unable to multi-task. What would your suggestion be?

    With Best Regards,
    Nick

  • Dave Killoran
    December 16, 2018 at 9:27pm

    Hi Nick,

    No, I wouldn’t use that explanation. It is never met favorably because it reflects the fact that you either didn’t properly prioritize the test or you didn’t manage your schedule well enough. And, they’d say, why take it if you weren’t totally ready?

    Better to not draw attention to that point 🙂

  • Alyssa
    January 23, 2019 at 4:36pm

    Hi Dave,

    I’m having a really tough time deciding between two schools and I’m hoping you can help!

    I was offered a full tuition to Penn State Law (ranked #74- I also went there for my undergrad) and was also offered half tuition at UConn (ranked #50). I know UConn has a much better employment outlook, however I feel like it’s tough to tell where PSU will be in the near future since they split from Dickinson so recently. I don’t particularly care where I work per se, but I would like to end up in a coastal town. No dreams of big law here either.

    Do you think UConn’s ranking is worth taking out $60k in loans for tuition? The COL in both areas are pretty similar.

    Thank you so much !!!

  • Melanie
    January 24, 2019 at 8:23pm

    Hi Dave,

    My daughter is trying to decide between sticker price at University of Miami and Loyola (Los Angeles) and a full-tuition scholarship to Capital University, an unranked regional school in Ohio. I don’t believe she has her sights on big law firms but wants to have a stable, well-paying career nonetheless. The free cost of tuition at Capital is nice because it’s close to home and on top of the 50k+ spent at Loyola and Miami, the two cities offer some of the highest living costs. We just need help on deciding if the ranked school is better or the free tuition. Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    January 28, 2019 at 6:57pm

    Hi Alyssa,

    the difference between #50 and #74 is big enough to me to justify paying more, especially when PSU has been investing in the school and should be on the rise. If this was #74 vs #20 then it would be different, but #50 doesn’t do enough in terms of reputation to move the needle for me 🙂

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    January 28, 2019 at 7:13pm

    Hi Melanie,

    Your daughter faces one of the true classic decisions here. First, do your research on job outcomes and locations! Start here: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/capital/miami/loyola-la/

    Capital has some very low employment rates, which are a reflection of the ranking (or vice versa, depending on how you view it). But of course it’s free, so that minimizes her risk as a student and then as a practicing attorney. Her career options and likely trajectory do change, however, if she goes here.

    The flip side is a load of debt, and while both Loyola and Miami have better job outcomes, there are no guarantees with degrees from either.

    Your daughter needs to closely consider her interests and pathways as a lawyer, and what she hopes to gain from attending any given school because the choice here is too difficult for an outsider like me to make 🙂

    Good luck!

  • Dave Killoran
    January 30, 2019 at 12:21am

    Correction: “…the difference between #50 and #74 is NOT big enough to me to justify paying more…”

  • Jane
    February 09, 2019 at 10:04pm

    Hi Dave,

    I am trying to decide between a Dillard at UVA and Stanford (with whatever need-based I’ll receive, but I don’t think it will be much).

    I’m interested in PI… not sure if I want to go the government direction or the non-profit direction though. I really do want to do a clerkship and I know that depending on how well I do, I can do this from either school.

    I have family at Stanford and my SO at UVA, so that also complicates the decision for me.

    Do you think there is a significant disadvantage career-wise to attending UVA? Or how big do you think the disadvantage is? I’ve looked at all the employment stats and am still having trouble knowing how significant the difference is.

    Thank you in advance for your thoughts and advice!

  • Dave Killoran
    February 09, 2019 at 11:02pm

    Hi Jane,

    Congrats on the great offer! This one is pretty easy for me: if I was choosing, I’d take the Dillard and never look back. The 8th ranked school in the nation for free vs what sounds like close to a full payment for Stanford? I love Stanford but free at a T8 is just way too good to pass up. The head start in life you get with no debt from a school that good is just unparalleled in my opinion.

    Thanks!

  • Isaac
    February 12, 2019 at 3:04pm

    Hi Dave,

    I’m in the boat of people who don’t know where they would like to practice law after school. For that reason I want to go to a school with a more national reach so I can be flexible. Unfortunately I’m not in a position where I’m deciding between T14 schools. The highest ranked school that I’ve been admitted to is UCLA and I’m doing everything I can to make that option affordable for me. I think it’s a great fit for me because I am interested in immigration/public interest law and they have a great program for that. They are supposed to come out with their scholarship offers at the end of this month, but based upon what I’ve read online my best guess is that if they gave me anything it would be between 40-60K total.

    My options right now are between that and UCI at 67K, GW at 75K, and Minnesota at full ride. While I know Minnesota is ranked rather high and they’ve given me full ride, I’m not so sure I want to be stuck there after graduation. I’m using my full ride offer and an offer of 120K from UC Davis to negotiate for more at UCI and hopefully then using that higher offer from UCI to negotiate with UCLA. GW has stated explicitly that their offer is meant to be final but that there is an application I can fill out for them to reconsider the offer. However, they would only be able to tell me if they are able to increase my scholarship offer after the deadline to reserve my seat. I’m not sure if there is any way of getting around that to negotiate a higher offer, but I’m working with the assumption that that will be my final offer.

    Given that, I was wondering your thoughts on, if it came down to it, ~100K in debt from GW vs. ~100K in debt from UCLA. I would be happy in either a CA or DC market, and from what I understand UCLA has some good connections to the DC market too. I am also wondering if that amount of debt is worth it for those schools or if I should take the money from UCI, Davis or Minnesota and run.

    Thanks.

  • Zach Turim
    February 17, 2019 at 2:27am

    Hi,
    I was recently offered a $150,000 dollars to USC and $105000 to Fordham. I want to work at big law on New York but I would be open to starting in La first as long as there was a clear path to transferring that work to New York. If I were to be accepted to Penn as well paying full tution, which of these options seems like the smartest pick for someone who does like the idea of loans and has started a family but also wants all doors to remain open?
    Thanks in advance,
    Zach

  • Dave Killoran
    February 18, 2019 at 6:37pm

    Hi Zach,

    Thanks for the question! Let’s see, USC with more money vs Fordham with less? Yeah, for me that would tilt strongly towards USC. USC has a similar overall cost, better employment figures, more federal clerkships, and a better large firm employment rate: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/usc/fordham/. To get $45K more there? Not really a tough choice since LA is a huge legal market in this country (not as big as NYC, but still quite reputable and the work experience there is portable to NYC).

    So, what about USC vs Penn? If you were getting money at Penn, this wouldn’t be a tough choice since Penn has much stronger employment and prestige factors: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/usc/penn/

    However, with Penn costing about $160K more (money plus cost of living difference), then it becomes harder. Each school isn’t cheap, but paying off ~$190K is obviously a lot easier than paying off ~$350K. That differential there is what you are paying for to get the opportunity at better job results. Whether that’s worth it to you is a personal choice. I personally don’t love debt, and having a family makes those obligations tougher. Penn opens more doors and better ones at that (usually) but USC opens plenty of doors on its own merit but fewer of the true elite jobs (clerkships being top level, biglaw second). I’m not sure of the best call for you, but I would suggest looking at biglaw hours vs the idea of your family. The two can be tough to blend.

    I hope that helps a bit!

  • Jacque Biggs
    February 28, 2019 at 3:06pm

    Hey, I’m listening to your podcast right now and I’m in this situation too. I live in Louisiana now and would like to practice here. I got accepted to #88 LSU with a small scholarship with my June LSAT score. However, I did a retake in January and #54 Tulane just admitted me with a $37500 a year scholarship. I’m hoping LSU will up my scholarship to full soon. I’m not set on BigLaw, but I’m worried going to LSU will completely shut me out of the New Orleans area and any large firm. The only outcome I’m absolutely hoping to avoid is working at a small rural law firm coming out of law school. What do you think? Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    February 28, 2019 at 5:24pm

    Hi Jacque,

    It’s a tough one! LSU is of course far cheaper than Tulane on straight costs, but you are right that biglaw becomes unlikely (4.9% biglaw placement for LSU).

    You’ve probably seen this too: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/lsu/jobs/. It shows that about 29% of LSU grads end up at firms with 10 or fewer attorneys, so chances are significant that you might end up at a small firm (Tulane is 13.7%).

    On straight employment vs cost, LSU is hard to beat, but when you factor in the type of jobs (which you should!), it gets to be very close. If you do reasonably well at LSU, you’ll be fine as far as avoiding that rural job, so I’d probably lean that way if they give you more $$, but you have to look in the mirror here and make an unflinching self-assessment of what you want and what it is worth to you!

    Thanks and please let us know what you do!

  • Dave Killoran
    March 01, 2019 at 5:00pm

    Hi Issac,

    Thanks for the message, and sorry for the delay in replying! I actually wish I’d seen this sooner since we just did a podcast on this very topic (episode 5), and I would have loved to include this scenario.

    For the UCLA vs GW debate, I actually favor UCLA here. GW is a great school and I’m a fan, but the numbers favor UCLA across the board: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/gw/ucla/.

    So, if UCLA emerges the victor there, how does it stack up against the other 3? First, let’s separate those three, starting by comparing UCI and Davis, where Davis comes up a bit short (biglaw placement and clerkships are sharply lower than UCI, reflecting less of a broad pull). For UCI vs Minnesota, the comparison is closer but with around 70% of the class staying in Minnesota/Wisconsin, you are right to be concerned about MN. However, the full ride is hard to ignore and given how close these schools are, would likely tilt me towards Minnesota. It’s close though, and I can see either outcome being completely reasonable.

    So, it’s UCLA vs Minnesota (or Irvine, depending): https://www.lstreports.com/compare/irvine/ucla/minnesota/. Given your goals I’d lean towards UCLA, but you are paying $100K for a numerical advantage that is not overwhelming and is at times even inferior (clerkships, for example).

    That isn’t a clear cut answer, but this mostly comes down to job outcomes and locations, which can be very hard to determine beforehand. Minnesota is the best “deal” financially, but you may well end up in that area; UCLA has more pull in bigger markets including LA/SF, NYC, and DC but it will cost you. Is it worth the extra debt to have the better option of getting out of the midwest? Only you can tell 🙂

    Thanks!

  • Brian L
    March 03, 2019 at 8:53pm

    Hi Dave,

    As you stated above I need to first thank the PS Bibles for putting me in this great position to begin with! Pending waitlist movement (4 t14 waitlists, and still pending at NYU) I have narrowed my choices down to 3 schools and calculated the debt I would leave each school with:

    Virginia (250k), WashU (90k), Wisconsin (30k, in-state & alma mater)

    I am not interested in big law, but I am interested in clerking (preferably federal to help with future academia dreams), working for the government (potentially federal, though I could be happy with state probably as quality of life and a reasonable work week is important to me), or in another public service role. If my grades turn out right I would eventually like to make my way into academia/teaching perhaps. Landing a full professorship would be my most highly desired mid-career outcome I think after getting some government work experience under my belt, though I know that is a fairly remote possibility and I need to not necessarily make plans with that goal in mind.

    I do not want to be stuck in one employment market for the next 3-4 decades but am otherwise pretty flexible on that end besides generally not wanting to live in huge cities due to high COL. Since I am not planning on big law, a strong LRAP program is of course very enticing/important for my post-law school financial situation. If I know I am committed to public service work, does that make an astronomical debt burden more theoretical since I would be on a school or government forgiveness route? What other factors should I be thinking about here? I will be attending all 3 school’s ASWs this spring.

    The estimated debt burdens at graduation again are Virginia – 250k, WashU 90k, Wisconsin 30k. My WashU scholarship is 130k total – would I be able to get UVA to budge at all on their current $0 offer in comparison with that?

    Thank you in advance if you have any thoughts! (Love the new pod as well!)

    Brian

  • Dave Killoran
    March 04, 2019 at 2:08am

    Hi Brian,

    Thanks for the questions! There is a ton to unpack in your post, but let’s start at the end: UVA will likely not respond to the WashU offer. Their rankings aren’t close enough, and this goes to the point we made at the end of episode 5 about negotiations–the schools need to consider themselves comparable.

    Next, it’s beneficial that you have your career paths strongly in mind here. From a clerkship standpoint, UVA is obviously the strongest, with placement rates about double that of the other two schools. And I know you aren’t interested in biglaw, but keep in mind that those numbers reflect the esteem a school is held in within the legal profession, which extends to academia. UVA at 69.3% biglaw dwarfs WashU at 44.9%, which dwarfs Wisconsin at 11.3%. On a purely academic track, UVA is clearly the best choice here. But is it worth 250K? If you went public service and used UVA’s VLFP II program(https://www.law.virginia.edu/public-service/loan-forgiveness), then you could severaly discount costs but of course you have to meet the program requirements. I haven’t done an LRAP analysis of UVA any time recently, so I don’t feel comfortable making anything other than general comments here at the moment.

    As far as WashU vs Wisconsin, these are schools that give you different outcomes as well. Wisconsin is basically a lot of public service and small firm work, WashU is trying very hard to climb the ranks into the real major leagues and places like a climbing school. while you can go to Wisconsin and end up a professor, it’s not easy at all, and you are more likely to end up in public service. WashU gives you more options, and may well be worth the extra $60K given your stated preferences.

    In which case, how much do you desire the opportunity to get that professorship? UVA makes you pay for it, but the chances are far better coming from there than the other two, although WashU gives you a shot. Wisconsin put you in public service almost certainly. So, the question is are you willing to take on the debt for the shot at academia?

    I hope that helps, but you have a tough decision here!

  • Brian L
    March 04, 2019 at 2:56am

    Apologies Dave,

    I neglected to include relevant info in my above post:

    Virginia
    USN – 9
    ATL – 2
    Debt at graduation – 250k
    Scholarship – $0
    Employment – 92%
    Underemployment – 2%
    Bar Passage – 96%
    Federal Clerkships – 10%
    Public Service – 10%
    Placement – NY 28%, DC 23%
    Monthly Loan Payments on 10 yr. plan – $2,819 (LRAP?)

    WashU
    USN – 18
    ATL – 17
    Debt at graduation – 90k
    Scholarship – 130k
    Employment – 86%
    Underemployment – 5%
    Bar Passage – 87%
    Federal Clerkships – 4%
    Public Service – 13%
    Placement – MO 25%, NY 15%
    Monthly Loan Payments on 10 yr. plan – $1,011 (assuming LRAP here isn’t as good as UVA’s..?)

    Wisconsin
    USN – 27
    ATL – 42
    Debt at graduation – 30k
    Scholarship – 70k
    Employment – 74%
    Underemployment – 5%
    Bar Passage – 100% (diploma privilege)
    Federal Clerkships – 4%
    Public Service – 32%
    Placement – WI 67%
    Monthly Loan Payments on 10 yr. plan – $311

    Obviously at UVA and WashU I would never be able to afford the 10 yr. standard repayment plan so would need to be financing through some combination of school LRAP, government PSLF, IBR, RePAYE, or something like that (if that’s even a prudent idea).

    I also wanted to quickly add that I feel supremely comfortable and at home in a college town environment such as UW & UVA (unsure what WashU’s campus and the Clayton, MO area is like but am visiting), for law school and also for after potentially..

    Thank you so much again in advance if you are able to take a look at my analysis so far! (And for the bibles!!)

    Brian

  • Brian L
    March 04, 2019 at 3:01am

    Further apologies – I did not see that you had responded before I sent my addendum post, sorry! Thank you for looking it over, I truly do appreciate it!

    Brian

  • Ella J
    March 10, 2019 at 8:45pm

    Hi Brian/Dave/everyone,

    I’m in the luckiest position I can imagine and have gotten in to a lot of great schools. I have it (roughly) narrowed down to Harvard, Yale, Columbia, and NYU, with the possibility of full-tuition public interest scholarships at both Columbia and NYU, and I am expecting zero need-based aid from Harvard and Yale. I am fully 100% committed to public interest, but I’m not sure exactly what I want that to look like — I could easily see myself in a legal services/public defender career, or something more policy-oriented eventually, and I don’t know enough about clerking to know if I want to clerk. There’s also a chance I might want to move abroad at some point. I don’t think I want to do academia (unless we’re talking about clinical professorships, which seem to be a different beast) but again, don’t really know. So…basically I want to keep my options open, with the knowledge that I definitely want to do public interest and would be fully relying on the LRAP programs at Harvard and Yale (and ostensibly at NYU/Columbia for cost of living loans).

    My instinct is that Yale > Harvard if I’m paying sticker. The only doubt I have about that is around Harvard’s larger network/greater name recognition if I’m living overseas and need connections. Do you think this is a legitimate doubt? That aside, would you agree that Yale > Harvard in terms of creating opportunities for most public interest-oriented people? Any other comments on that?

    That aside, paying sticker to Yale might be stupid if I get a public interest scholarship at NYU or Columbia. The NYU scholarship is named (it’s the RTK) while the Columbia one isn’t. I don’t really have a sense of how much better these opportunities would be compared to Yale at sticker with my goals. I have a feeling that Columbia has better overseas recognition than NYU, but the Root program has additional benefits that can’t really be measured because of the level of support and the network it provides.

    But I’m conflicted, because I also am really drawn to Yale’s lack of grades and general chiller/theoretical atmosphere! Also it’s Yale (who turns down Yale?)! I guess I’m asking how stupid it would be to choose Yale over the Root, since my goals are not super specific at the moment and I don’t really have a reason that Yale would uniquely help me get to wherever I’m going (except maybe int’l prestige). Their LRAP is obviously great but it’s also a LOT of debt, and who knows what life could throw at me.

    Any commentary you might have on any element of this situation/general panic would be amazing. The people I love are great, but they don’t really get law school stuff, and I don’t have too many people to talk to about this decision.

    Thank you so much.

    -Ella

  • Dave Killoran
    March 11, 2019 at 5:02pm

    Hi Ella,

    Thanks for the questions. The biggest concern I have in answering you here is that you have put so many options on the table, and in many instances said you don’t know if you might want to do them. That makes it very difficult for an outsider to provide advice 🙂 So, the first thing I would advise is for you to sit down and research through these various career options–you need to know more about things like clerking in order to understand if it’s something you want to pursue.

    Second, go look carefully at the job outcomes for each school (listen to our podcast if you don’t know where to get this info). There’s a reason here that Yale is on top of the rankings, and ultimately it translates into the fact that Yale gets you jobs everywhere (although slightly less so abroad compared to Harvard as you note, but again that’s a great example of why it’s so hard to provide advice here–are we looking at domestic or international markets for your future? That needs to be answered first). In general, in the Yale vs Harvard battle, take a look at matriculation numbers–it will be clear immediately which school your fellow students deem superior.

    Last, even if Yale is the kingpin of placement, a free ride at Columbia is a better deal almost every time. It’s just too big of a financial advantage from too good a school to pass up.

    So, the bottom line here is that I’m happy to help, but to do so I need to have narrower, more defined parameters for the decision. That allows us to compare apples to apples. Thanks!

  • Grace
    March 11, 2019 at 10:15pm

    Hi Dave,

    Thank you for giving your sage advice to all of the people on this blog looking to make a major decision about their future.

    Here’s my situation. I’ve gotten accepted to CLS without scholarship, NYU with a 26k scholarship, and Berkeley Law with 60,000. I’m currently negotiating with Berkeley to give me more money because USC offered me $120k. After Berkeley answers my reconsideration request, I’ll go to NYU to ask for more money as well.

    I have a large community in both the East Bay and NYC, but would ultimately like to settle down in California (most likely Oakland). I love it here. That said my best friend lives in NYC so a 3 fun years in the city before returning to CA is certainly possible.

    I will not have to pay room & board (my partner is covering those costs during school — and he’s willing to relocate to either city). So my COA is as follows:
    COA Berkeley = 96
    COA NYU = 166
    COA CLS = 210
    https://www.lstreports.com/compare/nyu/columbia/berkeley/

    Ideally, I’d clerk in the Bay Area after graduation then work for a boutique firm. I have no interest signing my life away in BigLaw for 200k, but no balance. Ideally, I could find a firm with a 40-50 work week and a ~150k salary. I just visited NYU and loved it, but I’m afraid NYC will be too big of a distraction. Berkeley is in the place I’d like to settle down, but has less prestige. What are your thoughts?

Comments

  1. Isaac says

    July 13, 2023 at 2:23 am

    Hi Dave,

    First, thank you for providing feedback to countless others. Your advice has been incredibly helpful these past few days. I graduated in 2021, and I currently work in finance. I applied to law school hoping to continue on that route from a legal standpoint. My desire is to go into private practice, and I would like to end up in the best position to have a successful career. Naturally, I have my sights set on BigLaw, but I’m aware of the low probability of that occurring. So at the very least its my motivation to try my best to excel during my time in law school.

    I’m trying to decide between two schools. 1. Santa Clara University (full-tuition) & 2. University of Maryland, Carey (sticker). Up until a few weeks ago I was committed to attending SCU, but UMD admitted me off the waitlist. UMD was the one of my top choices during my application process because the extensive list of courses/programs in various areas of law, the opportunity to intern with federal agencies tasked with financial regulation, and my desire to practice law on the east coast. Being from California, I applied to many of our local schools here, and wound up deciding on SCU because of the relatively low debt needed to graduate, and their BigLaw employment numbers were pretty competitive considering the prestigious law schools in the region.

    As I researched more on Santa Clara, I came to the conclusion that their Firm/BigLaw employment numbers were skewed due to the technical backgrounds of some grads, their TechEdge program, and all the hype surrounding Tech & IP these past few years. I’m skeptical that if I attend and don’t pursue IP or Tech-adjacent coursework I may miss out on internship/employment opportunities due to the schools low ranking.

    However, my concerns with UMD is that it may not carry enough weight to justify paying sticker price for an education. Though it is a better ranked program, most of the graduates tend to go towards Government, PI, or Clerkships. None fit my current career ambitions nor provide sufficient enough income to live comfortably and service the incurred debt load. Conversations with recent alumni at UMD has left me with the impression that firms do hire UMD grads, and it’s just the case that the school does not steer many students towards BigLaw and private practice. So my inclination to go to UMD comes with the pressure of having little room for error and the understanding that I will have to do a lot of heavy lifting on my own to secure that employment.

    If I go to SCU I will be responsible for about $120k total ($50k from myself, $70k debt). UMD leaves me with about $270k total ($80k from myself, $190k debt). My best case scenario is that I can hopefully lower the UMD cost by about $50k my 2L & 3L year by declaring myself a resident and moving in with relatives in the area.

    I don’t mind where I end up practicing, but I just want to give myself the best possible chances to end up amongst the best of my peers. Looking at the numbers, my career aspirations, personal interest, and current climate for new associates, is it wise to take the risk? Or, should I take the money and run?

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      July 15, 2023 at 2:19 pm

      Hi Isaac,

      Thanks for the question! My initial reaction here is that paying up to $270K and not getting T14 name recognition and placement is a very steep price. That kind of debt is an albatross that is impossible to escape unless you land a job that pays well. So my first piece of advice is to run the numbers on that so you get an exact sense of the salary you MUST have to make ends meet, let alone live well.

      Second, let’s look at the comparison, with the caveat that your SCU biglaw numbers explanation seems plausible to me (I hadn’t heard that before, but it would add up): https://www.lawschooltransparency.com/schools/compare/santaclara/maryland

      You can see that Maryland has multiple numerical advantages here, starting with a substantially higher employment score to better LSAT/GPA medians and then all the way down to a far superior bar pass rate. SCU has the national firm advantage and salary advantage, but if that’s being skewed by the specialized tech/silicon valley program that would place more highly there AND pay well, it’s worth thinking carefully here. Maryland looks like it has a higher-performing student body (just based on initial numbers) and one that passes the bar (with the caveat that the CA bar is known to be tough; that said 64.6% pass rate isn’t impressive).

      All in all, this comes down to Maryland costing between $100K-$150K more than SCU, and what you are really buying is job prospects. With SCU you will be in California; there is essentially low portability outside the West Coast. Maryland gives you a bit more portability and a wider location range on the East Coast. If this was MD at $35-$0K more as the difference between the two schools, I’d take Maryland, but at over $100K more? I have serious reservations even with the lower SCU numbers.

      Please let me know what you think. Thanks!

      Reply
  2. Charlotte says

    May 4, 2023 at 7:46 am

    Hi, Dave.

    My son leans toward public interest and plans to live in NC, VA, DC or another southern/mid Atlantic area. He is not looking at big law (might change, but seems unlikely), could be interested in academia, and often talks about being a judge.

    He is deciding between:

    UNC
    $48K non-discounted in state COA
    – $20K/year scholarship
    = $28K/year COA
    = $84K total

    85.1% employment
    4.3% under employment
    28.4% big law and clerkships
    20.7% public service

    Vanderbilt
    $100K non-discounted COA
    – $50K/year merit & need aid
    = $50K/year COA
    = $150K total

    90.1% employment
    6.8% under employment
    68% big law and clerkships
    10.4% public service

    He is generally debt averse but willing to invest where it actually makes a difference. He will pay about half and take the other half in debt. UNC would mean ~$10K debt and Vanderbilt would mean ~$75K debt.

    Would appreciate your thoughts!

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      May 4, 2023 at 12:33 pm

      Hi Charlotte,

      Thanks for the message! My initial reaction is to focus on this sentence: “He is not looking at big law (might change, but seems unlikely), could be interested in academia, and often talks about being a judge.” What I’m hearing there is a level of uncertainty that concerns me (and I say this with full knowledge that people do change their minds once in law school). This isn’t undergrad anymore, and when someone is heading into law school and looking at possibly significant debt loads, we want a more defined understanding/view of possible directions. Researching the options and looking more deeply into each would be my first piece of advice for him.

      One reason this is so important is because of his possible interest in a judicial/academic career. That pathway–like Biglaw–is a highly desirable outcome for students, and how well a school places into those fields is a measure of sort of a school’s reputational power. Here you can see the difference clearly in the biglaw/clerkship numbers: Vandy at 68%, UNC at 28.4%. If he’s serious about pursuing that direction, that 40% difference is what he’s paying for with the higher Vanderbilt COA. In that sense only, the 40% difference in more desirable job outcomes costs about $66K.

      Depending on the answer to the above, it might be worth paying for Vanderbilt. But unless he’s strongly committed to that pathway, it’s hard to ignore that the UNC debt load is so minimal that he will walk away from law school with a full range of career options. At only $10K debt post-UNC, he could choose any path he wants–public interest, government, etc. That’s very compelling.

      So, as usual, it comes down to his career aspirations, and he has some thinking to do. Either direction could be the “right” one, but it depends on how strongly he feels he needs the name brand and degree portability of Vanderbilt. If he doesn’t need that, UNC is a great option and leaves the door open to really going in any direction he wants post-graduation.

      Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

      Reply
  3. Jonathan says

    April 20, 2023 at 11:39 pm

    Hi Dave! I’m not sure if this thread is still active, but it has been very helpful to read through some of your other responses. I’ve narrowed my choices down to Harvard, Michigan, and Northwestern… but now I’m stuck. I currently live in Chicago with my partner, and I have a slight preference to stay in Chicago for school. I plan to pursue a federal clerkship followed by public interest/government work in Chicago or DC.

    Harvard (COA=$330,000, Loans=$100,000): Obviously it would be amazing to be a student at Harvard, and the school would get me to my goals. The big downside here is the cost. While I wouldn’t need to take out an exorbitant amount of debt (compared to many other law students), it would take out a lot of savings. I am also nervous about relying too heavily on the LIPP program due to how it calculates assets regarding spouses, homes, etc.

    Michigan (COA=$120,000, Loans=$0): I loved Michigan when I visited and would graduate debt-free. The biggest benefits to attending Michigan over Northwestern would be the community vibe and what seems to be a very strong contingent of PI students, though the school is a little more expensive.

    Northwestern (COA=$95,000, Loans=$0): This would be my cheapest option (full ride, no debt). The other biggest benefit is that it would be the least disruptive to my partner and me; we’d still be near friends, and my partner could continue working at their current job. However, based on what I’ve heard from current students, I’m concerned about the school’s relatively poor PI career support.

    To be honest, I think I am leaning toward Northwestern, but I’m worried that I’m doing so for bad reasons: the lack of disruption in my life and how it feels nice to have gotten a full ride. Would I be putting opportunities out of reach by choosing Northwestern over Michigan, or Northwestern/Michigan over Harvard? How much stock should I be putting in the “Harvard” name? And how much should I be focusing on the strength of the PI support? I feel very conflicted.

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      April 22, 2023 at 2:06 pm

      Hi Jonathan,

      Thanks for the message! As always, think of this as a purchasing decision, because you are of course purchasing debt in exchange for career results/options. You’ve already done the excellent and most helpful work of establishing the price, so let’s look at what you are buying: https://www.lawschooltransparency.com/schools/compare/harvard/michigan/northwestern.

      The first question is, are the HLS numbers so much better than the others that they are an obvious, slam-dunk choice? I wouldn’t say so. Their big advantage is in clerkships, and 14.3% fed clerkships is strong. Knowing that’s your preferred path gives that some weight, but at least to me I don’t see their numbers as being so much better that you should go broke for it. I know it’s tough to walk away from the HLS name, but with a looming recession, having depleted savings/debt is not typically a smart move when the alternative is still a T14 name.

      Second, if we set HLS aside for the time being, it becomes Michigan vs Northwestern. You’ve identified a $25K difference there, and no debt on graduation from either. So it really becomes a matter of whether the clerkship/PI advantages outweigh the moving consideration. And only you can answer that. But, what you can do to help yourself is talk to Northwestern staff and students about the PI experience there–find out if the environment is right for you and whether this is a legit concern or something that’s not an issue.

      Last, the disruption issue is real, since your private life and comfort will affect you performance in school. On the other hand, the “full ride” vs not shouldn’t be a consideration since it has no material effect in the future (aside from $$, which we quantified already). At the end of the day, pick the school that you feel you will do best at while being happiest–the outcomes are different, but similar enough that it’s not a massive difference.

      Thanks!

      Reply
  4. Helen says

    March 14, 2023 at 9:16 pm

    Hi Dave! While I am still waiting on some decisions, I have currently narrowed my options to the following acceptances I already have and among which I am trying to decide (Scholarships offered listed next to each school):
    1) Fordham 120.000
    2) GW 135.000
    3) Notre Dame 135.000
    I am an international applicant and my goal is big law (visa considerations weigh in here).
    From the data I found at LST, I can see that big law employment rates (and employment rates in general) favor Fordham in spite of being ranked lower. My fear is that 2021 numbers might not be quite representative as it was a year with a high demand for legal jobs, and the situation might be different when I graduate in 2026.
    What would you do? By the way, federal clerkships have no importance to me, since as a foreigner I won´t be eligible.
    Thanks!
    Helen

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      March 17, 2023 at 7:13 pm

      Hi Helen,

      First, 2022 numbers are out at: https://www.abarequireddisclosures.org/Disclosure509.aspx, so you can get the most recent data right from the schools there 🙂

      Second, the possibility of circumstances changing with the schools is always present, but Fordham has historically been very solid and well-respected in NYC. I doubt that changes in the next several years barring some huge scandal (which is not expected).

      I realize that doesn’t change the situation a huge amount, but it might put your mind at ease over how Fordham is viewed at least!

      Thanks!

      Reply
  5. Andrew says

    May 5, 2022 at 7:36 pm

    Hi Dave,

    I listened to the podcast where you advised someone choosing between Chicago and Berkeley at equal cost. I was wondering if my situation — Michigan vs. NYU — is analogous.

    NYU gave me almost twice as much scholarship money, and Michigan refused to up their offer.

    Still, given differences in the cost of living, my overall cost of attendance would be nearly identical — approximately 270k for either school. Maybe throw in an extra 10k for NYU and NYC cost of living to be conservative.

    I visited the NYU area earlier this month for ASW and honestly didn’t love it. NYC wasn’t my cup of tea, and I found Ann Arbor more liveable. I think I’d probably be happier there.

    But if I want top outcomes — and I do — would I objectively be making a mistake by choosing Michigan over a T6?

    Best,
    Andrew

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      May 6, 2022 at 8:29 pm

      Hi Andrew,

      In this case, the two schools both have great outcomes, and really aren’t that far apart: https://www.lawschooltransparency.com/schools/compare/nyu/michigan. If costs are close and you feel like Michigan is a better environment–and you will consequently perform better–then Michigan is very defensible. A better class position at Michigan will serve you far better than an okay performance at NYU since class standing/grades have a HUGE impact on job outcomes.

      Thanks!

      Reply
  6. Chelsea says

    April 27, 2022 at 1:04 pm

    Hi Dave!

    I’m so glad I stumbled across this post. You are the voice of reason I need right now!

    Similar to a commenter from a couple of years ago, I am down to the wire between Georgetown with the full ride Blume scholarship (dedicated faculty mentorship, ability to do 2 clinics, small cohort of PI folks) or Harvard with their max financial aid, which is rare and amazing (though is it really amazing that I grew up dirt poor? lol). At HLS I would still need to take out $20k per year in tuition loans and $30k per year for living expenses, ending up at about $150k in loans total. At Georgetown, I would start in the part-time evening program and keep my high-paying policy job for the first year then switch to full-time for years 2 and 3, so max loans there would be about $50-60k. I also have $35k in undergraduate debt. I am interested in environmental law and wholly committed to public service/govt work, but would consider a plaintiffs/public interest law firm at some point as well. Just know for sure I can’t do big law. DOJ Honors and/or a clerkship are on my radar, which seem easier from HLS, but because of my background and connections in DC, I think those things will still be possible at Georgetown.

    I’m also in my 30s and debt is utterly terrifying to me. I worry HLS is a financially irresponsible choice given my career interests, but the prestige and more than that the transformative educational and social experience it seems to hold is tempting. I don’t have much tying me in DC other than a well-paying but boring job and some good friends, but I do feel settled after about 8 years here. I imagine I’ll be back in DC for summers and post-grad if I do go to HLS, so wouldn’t have to cut off completely from my life here. And a change of scenery could be good, but Boston was never on my radar as a place I’d want to live. Going back into a transient/financially unstable phase of life feels a little scary too. But it’s Harvard! Is there an obvious answer here I’m not seeing? This is the toughest and biggest life decision I’ve ever made.

    I appreciate any wisdom you can provide!

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      April 27, 2022 at 7:51 pm

      Hi Chelsea,

      Thanks for the question and congrats on the fantastic offers! So, if I’m tracking you here, HLS is $150K debt on top of $35K debt (total = $185K you’d be carrying), and GULC is $50-60K debt on top of $35K debt (total = $85-95K you’d be carrying). One of those is obviously half the other, so I’d first go take a look at the monthly debt payment on those because without any mitigation, it takes a significant monthly salary to service either one, but especially the HLS number.

      Normally the offset here is that HLS grads can count on a biglaw salary to pay that off, but in your case your job goals won’t be paying a biglaw salary. And that means you need to get into the details of the LRAP programs at HLS (where they call it LIPP) and GULC, and see if one of those will allow you to carry these debt loads while you work at a job that likely won’t cover the monthly payment, and then to make sure you know how long you have to stay in a public interest job and the terms of forgiveness, and so on. Depending on the LIPP details, HLS might be completely viable here, but it will require some research to unlock those details and how they apply specifically to you. In my opinion that’s the best place for you to start here.

      Good luck and please let me know what you decide 🙂

      Thanks!

      Reply
  7. Nathan says

    April 18, 2022 at 5:44 am

    Hi Dave,

    I have been accepted with a scholarship to both Minnesota Law and Emory. Emory has given me a slightly better scholarship but in light of the school’s higher tuition the difference in cost of attendance is only about $5000 per year. I have pretty much decided on attending Minnesota as it is the higher ranked school (US News #21 vs Emory #30) and I also have close family living in Minneapolis. However, there are a few things that concern me. In terms of employment, Emory seems to place better outside of its region than Minnesota, even though Minnesota outranks it. Emory also seems to have the edge in placement in national firms. Both of these are important stats to me, as I consider portability in a law degree to be very important (I am unsure if I want to stay in either Minnesota or Georgia long-term), and I also would like to try to land as high-paying a job as possible. Do these discrepancies concern you? And do you have an explanation for Minnesota’s lacking in these areas in spite of its high ranking?

    Thanks,

    Nathan

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      April 27, 2022 at 7:33 pm

      Hi Nathan,

      Thanks for the message! Your original one did go through 🙂

      For those wondering about the stats here, this is the comparison: https://www.lawschooltransparency.com/schools/compare/emory/minnesota

      Being from Minneapolis myself, I know quite about the U and have some reasons behind what you are seeing. Before we get to that, though, you should know they are both very good schools. And don’t let rankings fool you: Emory, although ranked 30th this year, has been as high as #19 within the past decade. In other words, Emory has at times been seen as “just as good” as Minnesota within these rankings (and better, since in 2015 and 2016 when Emory was 19, Minnesota was 20th). Minnesota on the other hand has been remarkably stable and hasn’t bounced around like Emory has–their ranking has been between 19th and 23rd for a while now. Either way, these two schools are closer than the current rankings suggest, which is one of many reasons rankings are deceptive and should be treated with great care.

      As far as hiring, take a look at one of the key stats: state placement. Emory is 42% in GA, Minnesota is 62% in Minnesota. This relates to an interesting fact about life in the upper midwest: people tend to stay there. In fact, I once read that Minnesota as a state has the highest retention of people who grow up there as compared to all other states. Meaning, once someone is there, they stay there. The law school isn’t the same as the state, but you can see that a solid 20% more of the grads stay in state vs Emory, and given that the Minneapolis legal market isn’t massive, that limits options. By the way, even the transfer numbers support this “stay at home” theory: only 4 transferred out of MN; Emory, by comparison saw 15 transfer out, presumptively towards what they saw as greener pastures.

      That point about state placement isn’t an equalizer, though. Minnesota grads don’t get out there as much, and consequently they aren’t known as much. The second placement state is Wisconsin, which means 2/3 of all MN grads stick in the MN-WI area. Only 5% head to markets like NY, which means recruiters see more of students from other schools than MN. That certainly is the case with Emory, which has a NY placement rate of 13.6%. Depending on the recruiter this can be good or bad: bad in that they might be a bit more familiar with Emory grads, good in that sometimes being different makes you stand out.

      To me, the difference here in placement is hard to read, and so I fall on to the default advice I give when it’s too close to call: where do you think you will do better? Because your grades after 1L mean EVERYTHING, and being at the top of your class in Minnesota will be better than being in the middle at Emory.

      Thanks!

      Reply
      • Nathan says

        May 1, 2022 at 3:19 am

        Thanks Dave! I appreciate you taking the time. I am still concerned about Minnesota’s Biglaw placement which seems unusually low for a T20-T25 school. According to LST, only around 17% of the class of 2021 went on to work at national firms. That number is lower than most similarly ranked schools, and is lower than some schools which aren’t even top 50 (Houston and Miami are two examples). Minnesota also fell 16 spots in the outcomes-based ATL rankings this past year. While I don’t necessarily need to work in Biglaw, I definitely want to work at a high-paying job, so at least a strong regional firm. Should I be concerned that Minnesota does not put me in an optimal position to reach my career goals?

        Reply
        • Dave Killoran says

          May 4, 2022 at 1:34 pm

          Hi Nathan,

          It’s a legitimate concern in that the biglaw number in isolation is not very high comparatively. However, note also that judicial clerkships in 2021 made up 24.8% percent of placement at UM, and those are often thought of as more desirable than biglaw (not always, depends on the exact position, but fed clerkships are definitely the top spot for many people). Combined with the 17.3% national firm placement, it turns out that 42.1% of the Minnesota class is moving into “high demand” jobs. Emory, by comparison, is much lower on the clerkship spots, but combined their number is 43.9%–very similar overall.

          The problem here is that it’s data so we can slice it in so many ways, but there is an angle here where the schools aren’t all that different. I’d say call Minnesota’s placement office and ask them directly about their biglaw placement and why they think the number is so low (relatively). I’d love to hear their answer and whether they cite the clerkship focus as I did.

          Thanks!

          Reply
  8. Grace says

    April 14, 2022 at 1:01 am

    Hi Dave! I’m coming up on deposit deadlines and am having a tough time making a decision between Loyola Chicago, Boston College, and University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign. I’m from Chicago and live in the city now, and most likely want to practice in Chicago after school, although I would like to leave open the possibility of working on the east coast. I’m most interested in “soft” IP (copyright, trademark, etc.) and have a background in art and art history that I hope to utilize. I’m also interested in cultural heritage/art restitution (very specific, I know). I’m not set on working at a big firm, although I may become interested in doing so in the course of law school.

    For University of Illinois, I’ve been offered full tuition, so I’m very attracted to the scholarship offer; the ranking, job placement, and bar passage rates; and the connections to Chicago. However, I’m not sure that I would be happy living in Urbana-Champaign for three years, and I worry that UIUC has a very narrow alumni network that is limited to the Midwest. (But don’t know that those are good enough reasons to pass the offer up!)

    I like Loyola Chicago a lot and think it has a very connected alumni network and recognition in Chicago. I would be happy living in Chicago, but I worry about the lower ranking and slightly lower employment/bar passage stats. I also think Boston College would be a great fit for me and I like the higher rank, supportive alumni network and professors, and connections on the east coast. BC is ultimately the most expensive option, and I’m not sure it’s worth the cost for me. I got my Illinois offer very recently, so I have not yet tried to negotiate with Loyola or BC (although they both say they don’t like to negotiate).

    I’m waitlisted at a few higher-ranked schools, but of course can’t count on those right now. Very much appreciate your thoughts!

    University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign (#35)
    Scholarship: Full tuition
    Total COA for me: 0 (would pay living expenses with savings + parental help)

    Loyola University Chicago (#73)
    Scholarship: $90K ($30K/year)
    Total COA for me: 54K (factoring in scholarship + savings/help)

    Boston College (#37)
    Scholarship: $75K total ($25K/year)
    Total COA for me: 93K (factoring in scholarship + savings/help)

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      April 17, 2022 at 7:43 pm

      Hi,

      I don’t see much of a competition here, to be honest! Illinois is FREE, and while the network might not be huge, it’s a name brand school that everyone has heard of. I can’t see a reason to pay 50K+ in fees for Loyola, which is lower ranked and has worse employment outcomes: https://www.lawschooltransparency.com/schools/compare/bc/loyola-chicago/illinois. To me, dealing with Urbana-Champaign is worth avoiding the debt and lowered job prospects. So, then it’s down to Illinois vs BC. You can at least see what you are paying for there with the biglaw advantage (but a fed clerkship disadvantage, but is that so good as to be worth 75K? I’m not sure it would be to me.

      Debt-free at a T35 school when the next best option is a comparably ranked school but that costs $75K? I think the writing is on the wall unless you absolutely would be miserable at Illinois.

      Thanks!

      Reply
  9. Carl says

    April 12, 2022 at 11:48 am

    Hi Dave,

    I have really been struggling in making a decision on where to attend school next year. I was fortunate enough to do very well on the LSAT (in no small part thanks to the powerscore books) and have gotten some great offers. I have pretty much narrowed my choices down to the following three schools:

    Michigan (#10 USNWR) – 40k/year scholarship, $80,000 total COA
    WashU (#16) – Full tuition scholarship
    Wisconsin (#43) – Full tuition scholarship

    I am an older applicant who is from Madison, Wisconsin, have a lot of roots here. I know that Madison is where I will be returning to no matter what school I attend. With that being said, I would definitely prefer to keep living in Madison, but it would not be impossible or especially burdensome for me to move for three years at this point in my life. Having this strong connection to Madison and Wisconsin has made this decision all the more difficult, especially after seeing Wisconsin drop to 43 in the rankings. I come to find that my heart is telling me to go to Wisconsin, but my brain is telling me to go to Michigan or WashU considering the aid I have received from those schools. The largest pull for Wisconsin is the fact that I love living here and really don’t want to leave.

    I am not super interested in biglaw as a career mainly because of the hours and stories of poor work life balance. I have learned after working all these years that time off outside of work is something that I value a lot. Despite not being interested in biglaw, I think I want to keep my options open to work at a respected/prestigious firm in Madison after law school for a couple of reasons. Reason 1- I don’t think that biglaw in Madison, WI is as brutal as NYC or even Chicago, and Reason 2- I think I could put up with a couple years of working at a top firm in Madison to get the training and connections that would enable me to switch into a solid state government or possibly federal government role in the area.

    Right now, my dream career trajectory would be obtaining a federal clerkship after graduation, working for the WI state attorney general’s office for a couple years, and then after getting enough experience, working for the US Attorney’s office for the Western District of WI, located in Madison. I think I would also be happy landing a higher level position with a state agency back in WI.

    Pros/Cons of the schools in my mind:

    Michigan pros: Best ranked school, extensive alumni network, a Michigan degree will likely stand out from the crowd of Wisconsin degrees when I make my way back home after school, great career services office, will easily let me go somewhere else such as Chicago if I change my mind and decide I don’t want to move back to Wisconsin
    Michigan cons: not a full ride, might be harder to make connections in the market I am shooting for after graduation, delay purchasing a house/putting down roots in Madison

    WashU pros: full ride at #16 school, solid career services office, might be fun to live in new city
    WashU cons: again may be harder to make connections back in Madison, WashU seems pretty focused on biglaw, I’d probably rather stay in Madison and I don’t know if WashU will really give me a leg up with my specific goals

    Wisconsin pros: I know for certain I will be happy living in Madison, full ride, can make connections easily in my target market
    Wisconsin cons: I would be passing up the same exact offer at a much higher ranked school, Wisconsin dropped 14 spots in rankings this year, if I wanted to do a federal clerkship or work in biglaw chances seem very low at WI, Wisconsin might have less services available to students than WashU and Michigan

    If finding a good job in Madison is my goal, am I better served by:
    Staying put and doing well at Wisconsin?
    Attending Michigan and coming back with a degree that will stand out from the crowd?
    Or taking the full ride to WashU which is the #16 rank school?

    One main problem I have been having is that the difference between Wisconsin and Michigan is clear to me and I think I can see how my life could be different from attending one school or the other. I think attending Michigan would truly help me have a leg up returning to the Wisconsin market after graduation. However, difference between Wisconsin and WashU is less clear. I can’t determine if attending WashU will actually help me get a leg up securing employment in Wisconsin and worry that I’d be essentially making everything harder for myself (moving, having to take the bar, not buying a home) by going to WashU.

    Sorry for the long post- but I would greatly appreciate any advice you have!

    Thanks!

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      April 17, 2022 at 7:56 pm

      Hey Carl,

      Thanks for the question! This is a really interesting scenario and one that took me some thought. Here’s what I ended up focusing on from what you said above:

      “Despite not being interested in biglaw, I think I want to keep my options open to work at a respected/prestigious firm in Madison after law school for a couple of reasons.”

      This is important since it’s your long-term life goal, whereas where you live for law school is a just a three-year decision (and less with summers back in Madison, if it works out that way). So, to keep your options open, that means deciding on WashU or Michigan. I know Madison is a great town, but the law school doesn’t compare to either of the others, and with WashU being free, it’s hard to say no. Plus, both St. Louis and Ann arbor are great towns, albeit of different sizes. If that isn’t convincing, compare all three: https://www.lawschooltransparency.com/schools/compare/wisconsin/washu/michigan. when you look at employment outcomes, no matter where you go, the WashU or Michigan grad will triumph over the Wisconsin grad almost every time. That means when you come back to Madison after graduating, you get that advantage over all the other Wisconsin grads looking at the same jobs.

      As far as WashU vs Michigan, is Michigan worth 80K more? I think if you were looking into Chicago or biglaw elsewhere, then maybe so. But if Madtown is your goal, then probably not. That said, it’s always tough to turn down a school as good as Michigan so if you went that way I could certainly understand it.

      Thanks!

      Reply
      • Carl says

        May 4, 2022 at 2:55 pm

        Thanks so much for your insight Dave. I really appreciate you taking the time to respond. I have spent so much time thinking about this and am torn between WashU and Madison. I know I want to end up back in Wisconsin so I am leaning towards Wisconsin. Considering I have the same exact offer at Wisconsin and WashU- do you think it is a particularly poor choice to pick Wisconsin over the higher ranked school?

        Reply
        • Dave Killoran says

          May 6, 2022 at 8:25 pm

          Hey Carl,

          I place a premium on choosing a school where you will have success, but if all else is equal, you are throwing away the statistical job advantage enjoyed by WashU here: https://www.lawschooltransparency.com/schools/compare/wisconsin/washu. So, it’s not about ranking, but about the fact that mathematically WashU gives you more choices. In a field dominated by elitism, it’s hard for me to figure making this choice UNLESS you know it doesn’t matter and you are already set after graduation.

          Thanks!

          Reply
  10. Sol says

    April 4, 2022 at 5:36 pm

    Hi Dave! First let me thank you for all the advice you continuously give. Reading your comments has been enlightening. Furthermore, I am a big fan of your Podcast, which is a big source of inspiration for me to continue studying for the LSAT and to go grab whatever you are drinking afterwards.
    I am not your regular applicant: I am a 34 year old lawyer from Argentina, where I currently live. I have been working in the Federal Judiciary of my country since I graduated from law school, 11 years ago. Also, I have continued studying and hold a masters degree in law. Finally, I am currently a professor at the University of law where I graduated, at an undergraduate program.
    I have been wanting to move abroad for a while now, and have concluded that my best chances to be able to practice law abroad and get a good return in terms of my decision, is to get a JD in the U.S. and practice there.
    That being said, I was wondering if taking into account my profile, I should limit my applications to the T20ish law schools, considering that getting a job right away after graduating is of foremost importance to me due to visa issues. In other words, is it worthwhile applying to lower ranked schools? Of course scholarship money would be definitely factored in when making a decision, but if my LSAT score does not allow me to apply to a T20 law school, do you think I could still have some interesting job outcomes considering my particular profile? I am interested and have practiced in a wide array of subjects and would ultimately lean towards the one in which I would have a better job outcome, prioritizing the possibilities of being hired, career growth and salary.
    Thank you for your time and patience!
    Sol.

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      April 8, 2022 at 2:58 pm

      Hey Sol,

      Thanks for the message and for being a loyal listener of the podcast! It’s awesome to hear we have fans in Argentina 🙂

      Your situation is a really interesting one because for you the job outcome is absolutely critical. In that vein, the T20 is attractive because we know the employment outcomes there are numerically higher than at lower-ranked schools. At the same time, your skill set makes you an appealing hire for firms with a sizable or growing Latin American practice focus. That certainly encompasses many larger firms such as Ropes & Gray, but there are firms outside that biglaw sphere working in that space. since this is so specialized, in your shoes I’d spend some time researching firms with Latin American practices, and looking at the resumes of the attorneys who work in that area. That would give you a sense of who/where they hire, and you could possibly even reach out to an attorney or two for advice if they already work in a position that looks like a good fit for you.

      The bottom line is that outside the T20 there will still be opportunities (and perhaps moreso at schools located in areas with larger Spanish speaking populations), and you should research those attorneys already in the field to get the best sense of what the odds are, because the entire T20 ideas is built on increasing your odds of success. Either way, it would seem to me you could put together a compelling resume for firms looking for your background and skills.

      Thanks and good luck!

      Reply
  11. Melanie says

    March 23, 2022 at 10:10 pm

    Hello! I am currently trying to decide between law schools and have until April 1st for one of the deadlines. I am interested in pursuing a career in international law (private) and working at a global firm or company. Because I would like to work abroad, not in the US, I limited my law school applications to schools that offered joint/dual JD/LLM programs. I have received the following offers:

    Duke University
    – Ranked 10th overall and 10th for international law by US News
    – I am on the waitlist, so if I am accepted, I do not expect to be offered money
    – Over $60k/year plus living expenses would put me $150,000+ in debt
    – If accepted, would the cost be worth it?

    Boston Univeristy
    – Overall rank- 20, international law rank- 32
    – Offered me $15k/year, $59k + living in Boston would put me back $150,000+

    Arizona State University
    – Overall rank- 25, international law rank- 32
    – Regional school, 73% of grads stay in state
    – Offered full tuition, honors program if I commit by April 1st, otherwise 1st seat deposit due April 15th
    – When I visited they told me that although they do not have a JD/LLM program established, they are very willing to help me customize my education, so it would be more difficult than the other schools

    Indiana University, Bloomington
    – Overall rank- 43, international law rank- 35
    – Offered full tuition

    Case Western University
    – Overall rank- 72, international law rank- 16
    – Offered full tuition
    – Low overall ranking, but one of the oldest international law programs in the country, which will employers care more about?

    I am very torn. I do not want to accrue enormous debt, but I know that in the US to land a job at a major company it makes more sense to go to a well-known, higher ranking school. However, will a school like Duke or Boston carry the same weight abroad? Is it worth turning down full rides to other universities that offer similar programs?

    This process has been extremely stressful and it seems like everyone I talk to offers me different advice. My parents (not in the legal field) think I should take one of the scholarships. My colleagues (I work as a legal clerk at a small but successful civil law firm in Houston) have given me mixed responses, but most say go for the name. I do not have any connections with anyone who actually is in the international legal sector, or who has even worked in business abroad. I would appreciate any advice you may have, thank you!

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      March 25, 2022 at 12:46 pm

      Hi Melanie,

      Thanks for the message. The usual path to making a decision like this is to eliminate schools in sub-comparisons, leaving just a handful at the end to fight it out. Here, I think we can do that with some success. Let’s start with ASU, Indiana, and Case. All are on full scholarship for you, and that means in my eyes ASU and Indiana eliminate Case. Note: I don’t factor the international law ranking into this–it’s meaningless to me for these purposes. That’s not always the case with sub-rankings, but it is here because none of these schools are on the top or even near it in those sub-rankings.

      Between ASU and Indiana, I would generally lean ASU. It’s an up and coming school that has been rising recently and working hard at it. But I see the lack of a joint program as a negative for you. I have to ask though: how committed and certain are you about this international path? You mention “I do not have any connections with anyone who actually is in the international legal sector, or who has even worked in business abroad” which makes me wonder if this is based on experience with international work or moreso a desire to work in a field that sounds exciting but for which you don’t have a background in for perspective. The answer there is crucial because ASU would win over IU in almost every other scenario.

      Setting that aside, you have Duke and BU. I’m not big on creating complicated scenarios from WL schools, so let’s hold off on Duke, and instead play BU vs ASU: https://www.lawschooltransparency.com/schools/compare/asu/bu. They have some similarities, with BU holding advantages in employment overall as well as employment at big firms + clerkships (41.8% vs 13.3%). However, is that advantage big enough to warrant $150K+ in debt? I personally don’t think so. A lower debt figure would change the calculus, but 150K is a lot of money when one alternative that looks very similar is free.

      Last but not least, Duke, a school I know a lot about. When you toss Duke into that last comparison you can see what you are buying: https://www.lawschooltransparency.com/schools/compare/asu/bu/duke. The big firms + clerkships percentage is now 78.1%, meaning over 3/4 of the class moves into one of those plum jobs that most grads covet (and which is what you are looking for).

      In the end, then, for me it would comes down to ASU on full scholarship vs Duke (if you got in) at likely full cost. And that decision depends entirely on how committed you are to biglaw/international law. So I’d examine that first, and then do some serious research into what a debt load of $150K+ looks like in terms of paying it off, and the salary required for that to be sustainable. It’s eye-opening.

      I hope that helps, and I’d love to hear back on the choice you make!

      Reply
      • Melanie says

        March 28, 2022 at 10:18 am

        Thank you so much for your response. Your breakdown was very helpful and it is always nice to have an objective point of view.

        As far as international law goes, I studied abroad for two separate semesters as an undergrad and worked in Panama as a legal research intern one summer. Traveling and immersing myself in other cultures is a passion of mine, and I know that I want to live and work outside of the US following law school. That is my primary reason for wanting to pursue a dual JD/LLM degree, because it would make it easier for me to practice law abroad and would hopefully differentiate me from other US employee applicants. For the programs I am looking at it, I would spend my 3L year abroad, getting both my JD and LLM in 3 years.

        Duke definitely has the best international program, as well as the largest international alumni network. However, as you know, I am waitlisted.

        I am hoping to speak with someone from ASU’s study abroad department later today to see if they think a dual degree is possible. When I visited the campus I was told that they were more than willing to work with students on custom degrees, but the uncertainty is nerve-wracking. Additionally, ASU just doesn’t have as many international law courses offered as any of the other schools, so I would be limited in my curriculum.

        The main time constraint I am currently concerned about is ASU. I was offered admittance to ASU’s honor program, which I would very much like to be in if I were to attend, but the deadline is April 1st and you are required to sign a binding decision letter of intent. Alternatively, I could pay the $500 on April 1st and hold my seat, but I would miss the honors deadline. I asked for an extension and they said no, but that if there were still spots in the honors program by the second seat deposit deadline, they would take my application into consideration.

        The deadline is April 15th for all of the other schools. Boston let me know that I will receive a decision about my scholarship reconsideration request before then, but I was not given a specific date.

        Thank you again for your guidance, it is much appreciated!

        Reply
        • Melanie says

          March 28, 2022 at 10:25 am

          I have no doubts about wanting to go to law school, but I have been wondering if waiting another year and trying again next cycle would be a better decision. I received a 168 on my LSAT and I think I could reach the 170 mark with additional time. Another year working would also help me save more money. I just do not know if the stress and time would be worth it, or if waiting would even result in better circumstances. I know that I have decent voices and I am thankful for the offers I have received, I just thought the decision would be easier/more obvious.

          Reply
      • Melanie says

        March 28, 2022 at 4:09 pm

        Hi, sorry to bother you again. After speaking with some of the lawyers at the firm I work with, I think I have further narrowed it down to BU and ASU, provided I am not offered acceptance to Duke.

        Reply
        • Dave Killoran says

          March 29, 2022 at 11:45 am

          Check the third paragraph of my original response, it addresses ASU vs BU!

          Reply
  12. Joy says

    March 18, 2022 at 9:05 pm

    Hello!

    I just found this blog and find myself in a situation where I am debating between some schools and could use some advice!

    I have been accepted to some lower-ranked schools with full tuition offers but I have already taken those off the table. These are the schools that I am seriously considering:

    #25 Arizona State: Full tuition offer, seat in the O’Conner Honor’s Program, have to accept by Apr 1st
    #16 UT Austin: Non-Resident Tuition Exemption (brings the price to in-state $36k) + $15k/year
    #10 Duke: I haven’t heard back yet, but I’m assuming either a waitlist or admit based on my stats, not sure the financial aid but I could use my Texas offer to negotiate
    #6 UPenn: waitlisted

    Context:
    I am originally from AZ so most of my family lives there and I already have connections in the legal community. I also lived in Austin, TX for a few years and loved the area. ASU feels like the safe choice because of the prospect of very little debt, but I am not 100% sure I want to end up in AZ full time after graduating and it seems like that’s what most people end up doing. I have always wanted to live out East (possibly NYC/DC) so that is why Duke and Penn are appealing. I speak Spanish so right now I want to do work with that population or do policy/human rights work, but I am honestly really open to exploring other career paths. Obviously Duke and Penn aren’t solid options, but they could still be worth considering.

    I would love your input on my situation. Thanks!!

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      March 19, 2022 at 7:59 pm

      Hi Joy,

      Thanks for the message! Congrats on a great cycle so far 🙂

      Part of the challenge here is that you have a number of different options and financial outcomes, and that decision difficulty is compounded because your career goals seem to be equally open-ended. LET’s see if we can narrow it down, or at least clarify what you are looking at:

      First, isolate the full COA:

      ASU= we’ll say $0 although it’s not really $0.
      UT: $153K
      Duke: $284.5K (using their numbers and assuming no aid)

      Penn isn’t on the list for me since you aren’t accepted there (yet). Either way, you’d be likely looking at little to no scholarship.

      With the numbers, we can look at your career options, in which you first said, “I speak Spanish so right now I want to do work with that population or do policy/human rights work.” If you go the public interest route, then it’s either ASU or to use LRAP at TX or Duke. That will require you to explore the terms of each program (they differ) and see how long you are locking in for and what gets paid off. Could it be worth it? Certainly, it just depends on what you can handle financially and career-wise. I will say that those options often do n0t require an expensive degree, and ASU would be very hard to beat given what they’ve offered you and how your career choice will impact you financially.

      If you go the non-IP route, and head specifically towards biglaw, then your salary rises significantly, and you can make a better argument for the other schools. But I will say that full boat at schools like Penn and Duke is a massive burden, and you should look carefully at the monthly payment and what’s required to support that financially. It’s painful. Many students of ours have gone those routes and done well, but it’s a deal that you need to enter with eyes wide open.

      In summary, you need to really think about career choices and what you really want to do here because it has a huge effect on your school decision. Please let us know what you decide!

      Reply
  13. Jenny says

    March 15, 2022 at 3:50 pm

    Hi,
    I’ve applied and been accepted to the law schools at University of Colorado-Boulder (ranked 48), University of New Mexico (102), University of Washington (45), and Seattle University (126). CO, NM and SeattleU have offered scholarships that would make the (roughly estimated) cost of attendance $55k, $50k, and $95k, respectively. I am currently waiting to hear about additional scholarships I’ve applied for, including a fellowship that would cover full tuition (plus other perks) at UW or SU.

    My dilemma is that the 2 lower-ranked schools have the most robust programs in the area I want to focus on (American Indian Law), and I don’t know whether the school or the program is more important in setting me up for success in a more niche area of law. Also, I’ll be 42 when I graduate and am a single parent, so a large amount of debt at graduation would be particularly difficult for me, and ideally I’ll be able work in the same city as the school for several years until my children finish high school. Given all these factors, I can’t identify a clear front-runner. What would you recommend?

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      March 30, 2022 at 12:57 pm

      Hi Jenny,

      Thanks for the question! In general, overall ranking is more important than specialty rankings. There are exceptions of course, but when you are looking at schools that are outside the T25, the specific program is a nice bonus but not determinative. To me, your best option here is to avoid debt as much as possible. You’ve said it’s a concern, and I think you are quite right to be worried about it.

      If you choose a school with low debt but no specialty program in Native law, then you should work with a professor to help create various offerings, such as a new journal on the topic. In other words, just because no program currently exists does not mean there’s no interest at the school for it. A school like Colorado offers you low debt, a great town location, and surely there would be interest in Native American law there. They’d be my front runner for you right now.

      Thanks!

      Reply
  14. Nate says

    March 3, 2022 at 6:14 pm

    Hi Dave, I have a similar quandary to one to which you responded in this thread in 2018 — extremely similar, in fact, just with slightly different potential debt.

    I’m comparing WashU (with a $33K/year scholarship) to Saint Louis U (with a full ride). Obviously it’s a rather uncommon scenario because the schools are so far apart in rank, which is why I’m particularly interested in your opinion. I have some savings to cover cost of living (and likely a small chunk of tuition), so I anticipate WashU would leave me with $80K to $100K in debt.

    As of now, my intention is to pursue BigLaw (although, of course, it would be nice to have the additional income flexibility provided by lower debt if I were to change my mind). I would be happy to stay in St. Louis and, consequently, had been leaning toward SLU. But I also have a background of working in sports and have lately become more intrigued with the idea of pursuing BL in other markets (most likely Chicago) at firms that have particularly robust sports law practices — such as Winston & Strawn, Proskauer Rose, etc., which obviously would take me into a totally different stratosphere re: necessary qualifications as compared to, say, Polsinelli or your typical big firm in St. Louis.

    My question is two-fold. First, as a straightforward question of job placement, do you think $80K-100K is worth it for WashU — would it give me enough of a chance at those firms to justify the price tag? Second, from a scholarship negotiation standpoint, do you think it would be worth the risk not to deposit at WashU (but express my continuing interest) in the hopes that I can capitalize on their reputation for playing the scholarship game well into the summer? For context on the second point, I’m a super-splitter with a low 3s GPA and a 172, so I highly doubt the offer goes up before their deposit deadline, but it seems possible it could increase later if they needed a few more scores to lock in a certain LSAT median.

    I recognize that’s a lot of information — thank you in advance for any guidance you can provide!

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      March 5, 2022 at 1:23 pm

      Hi Nate,

      Thanks for the message! Oddly enough, I’m fairly familiar with two of the firms you’ve mentioned here: Proskauer has been PowerScore’s counsel in the past, and I recently worked on an issue where Polsinelli was involved. My dealings with both were excellent, which is to say that stepping down from the biggest of biglaw firms still puts you in good stead 🙂

      First, let’s return to that 2018 post and update my reply there. In that case, the debt issue was lower than your proposed debt, but here’s what we had back then:

      …a direct comparison of the schools is useful: https://www.lstreports.com//schools/compare/washu/slu/. I want you to look at a few things, such as the employment rating (WashU’s is demonstrably better) as well as things like the large firm rating and clerkships rating. That biglaw/clerkship rating is a sort of measuring stick for how the school is viewed on the bigger stage, and WashU is the clear winner here. Rankings too, show that same positions: WashU is #18 and SLU is #88, and a comparison of the LSAT/GPA numbers shows a significant difference. WashU is getting better students and is viewed in a much more positive light overall.

      So, the real question reduces to, “is that higher ranking and better reputation/placement worth $55K?” I tend to think it is. If it was $100K or $150K, that would be a much tougher question in my opinion, but $55K doesn’t worry me as much, and you can see a *definite* difference in what you are getting.

      So, has much changed? Not really in terms of stats. WashU is running at about a 40% placement in national firms + clerkships, vs SLU’s 23%. Rankings-wise (which is not a big deal, but still a measure), WashU is up to #16 and SLU is currently at #91. The biggest difference is that your proposed debt is 80K-100K vs 55K for the other reader. I’d first pin down that debt number, since 80K is a lot more palatable than 100K. Second I’d look at the monthly payment on those debt numbers and consider what income is needed to cover those. That is what you will pay for the benefit of the higher employment chances at WashU, should you choose to go there. It could well be that at $80K it becomes doable for you.

      As far as depositing, given your splitter status you may not have much or any leverage in scholarship reconsideration. However, you could deposit WashU and then double-deposit elsewhere if needed. This is a not uncommon practice and gives you both more leverage and more safety in the process.

      This is likely going to be a waiting process for you for a while, so in the meantime lock in your info on debt so you are operating from a position of certain knowledge. Thanks and please keep me posted!

      Reply
      • Nate says

        April 6, 2022 at 11:31 am

        Hi Dave,

        Thanks for this thoughtful reply. I had just decided to accept the SLU full ride a few days ago when, yesterday, WashU increased my offer to $47K/year (a $42K increase overall). My debt number would still depend a little on money I can save the next few months/make during the first year, but the range is narrower and much lower regardless: $40K-$50K.

        I’m leaning toward WashU now, although I’m planning to squeeze in another visit to see a class and talk to career services people. Just wanted to give you the update and thank you again for taking the time to help!

        Reply
        • Dave Killoran says

          April 8, 2022 at 11:51 am

          Hey Nate,

          Thanks for the update and congrats on the improved offer! I can see why you’d be leaning towards WUSTL now, and it would be hard to argue against that decision.

          Thanks!

          Reply
  15. Kirean says

    December 27, 2021 at 12:02 am

    Hey! I’m having a tough time making a decision. I’m interested in becoming an environmental lawyer and am an avid outdoorsman (my two main ones are rock climbing and surfing). Hopefully you all could give me some insight!

    University of California San Diego (#86)- TCOA: 77,463 pros- great location with plenty of outdoor activities. Cons- most expensive to attend as well as to live.

    Lewis and Clark College (#88)- TCOA: 75,444 pros- incredible environmental law program and beautiful forestry. Cons- still pretty expensive to attend, far from any beach

    University of Oregon (#72)- TCOA: 45,702 pros- great environmental program, good location. Cons- no beach

    California Western (#147-189)- TCOA: 0 pros- completely free and in great location. Cons- a much lower ranked school, not the best environmental program

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      December 27, 2021 at 12:36 pm

      Hey Kirean,

      Thanks for the message! Like any decision, to me it’s about narrowing the field then visiting if needed. Here’s a basic comparison: https://www.lawschooltransparency.com/schools/compare/calwestern/lewisandclark/oregon/sandiego.

      Here, I’d knock out Cal Western immediately. Despite being free, the job numbers aren’t great at all. If the next higher-priced options were a lot more, then I’d keep them in, but they aren’t. Next, I’d compare USD vs Lewis & Clark since there are many similarities: cost and employment being the two big ones. That has to be your call there, although I will note that USD is NOT a UC school; there is no UCSD law school. For me, L&C would have a slight edge due to your admitted interest in environmental law.

      Last, we have Oregon, which stands alone in the mid-price range here and also has the best ranking by a slight margin. I’m actually quite familiar with UO and Eugene as I have family in the area, and as an outdoorsman, Oregon is likely the best of all your outdoor options tbh. Side note about surfing there, too: The Oregon coast is less than an hour away, and there is river surfing in Eugene!

      So, per the analysis I made above, to me it’s Oregon vs L&C. I’d shade toward Oregon with the lower cost, higher ranking, great location, and more widely recognized school name (their sports teams have helped people know the school better), but it’s really about the school that’s best for you. I’d go visit if you haven’t already as the two schools are quite different!

      Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

      Reply
      • Kirean says

        December 28, 2021 at 7:37 pm

        First off thank you so much for taking the time to help me put Dave. This gave me a much better insight than I had before (first in my family to take any sort of higher education). Considering the surfing and everything else outdoors I can certainly see myself being in Oregon.
        I was wondering if it would be worth it to reach out to these schools for a scholarship reconsideration. Then citing California Western’s full ride as a little leverage even if I’m not considering going there?
        Again thank you so much for your time and effort.

        Reply
        • Dave Killoran says

          December 28, 2021 at 7:47 pm

          Hey Kirean,

          Glad that helped! In this case, no, the Cal Western offer won’t move the needle. Western is just too far below the other schools for them to care–they do not see themselves as competing with Cal Western in any fashion, and so at that point whatever you were offered by them is irrelevant. You need schools in a similar band or higher to get reconsideration. And they also know overall COAs in general, so a school like Oregon will know they are cheaper than L&C for you.

          Thanks!

          Reply
          • Kirean says

            December 29, 2021 at 1:30 pm

            With all this to consider I think I’m going to go with Oregon. It is a much cheaper overall price, better ranked as an overall law school and still top 10 for environmental law. Thanks for all the help!

          • Dave Killoran says

            January 3, 2022 at 1:49 pm

            Nice choice, congratulations!

  16. Max says

    April 15, 2021 at 1:58 pm

    To update:

    I got the chance to visit Drexel and really loved the campus and Philadelphia. The law building was not the most exciting, but nonetheless I can definitely see myself there. From what I have seen of both cities, I definitely prefer Philadelphia to Pittsburgh, but know I can be happy in either city. I’ve also been able to negotiate scholarships at both schools and have looked at housing in each city to get a more realistic idea of the COA. Additionally, I have now factored in both degrees into the total cost.

    #67 Pitt: COA= $96000
    #81 Drexel: COA= $84550

    Does this change anything in your eyes?

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      April 15, 2021 at 3:55 pm

      No, not really since the costs are so very close. I think it’s about that health choice and where you feel you will perform best at this point 🙂 Congrats again!

      Reply
  17. Anonymous says

    April 9, 2021 at 11:52 am

    Interested in Environmental Law. Got 6 acceptances and have narrowed it to 3:

    University of Maryland, Baltimore, MD _ 10K
    Pace University Law School, White Plains, NY – 80%
    Vermont Law School, South Royalton, VT – full ride

    I am leaning towards Vermont (Tied #4 Environmental Law program) because I get a sense of community there and they have more classes, more clinics, etc. It appears that Pace is more a commuter school (Pace is tied to #1 for Environmental Law). The school also has a great program.

    University of Maryland has an environmental law program but it is not as extensive as the other 2 schools. So because of this, I think I am not going to go there and because of their lack of financial help.

    I want to end up working for NOAA, EPA, etc in the Maryland, DC and Virginia area. Pace and Vermont both have students that ended up with jobs in that area.

    Please advise your thoughts.

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      April 9, 2021 at 12:03 pm

      Hi anon,

      Can you clarify for me your total cost of attendance (COA) at each school over the three years? Final numbers are what I need to make an viable comparison here; scholarship figures unfortunately don’t tell me that total number.

      Thanks!

      Reply
  18. Bob says

    April 6, 2021 at 9:20 pm

    Hey Dave,

    Trying to decide between the following…
    Western New England (148-…) – full tuition – costs about 7k in fees + $0 Living expenses
    Hofstra (120) – full tuition – costs about 4k in fees + $$$ living expenses

    If I attend WNE then I would live at home and only have communitng costs. Not interested in big law – interested in estate planning/tax law. WNE is in the region I want to work, but attending an unranked school gives be concern.

    Thoughts?

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      April 8, 2021 at 12:55 pm

      Hi Bob,

      Thanks for the message! I’m not following your financial breakdown here because I need your personal total cost of attendance (COA). I ask that all questioners run down the tuition costs etc, just so I can save time in answering, and I’m not sure how much “$$$” represents to you as far as living expenses 🙂 So, if you can add those in and reply back with an exact dollar figure for each school, that will really help me quantify what costs are to you here, and thus make a better analysis.

      Thanks!

      Reply
  19. Emily says

    April 1, 2021 at 8:37 pm

    Thank you so much, Dave! I sincerely appreciate your detailed response to my questions! 🙂

    Reply
  20. Emily says

    March 28, 2021 at 6:53 pm

    Hi there,

    I’m not sure if this thread is still active, but if so, I would greatly value your insight. I’m struggling to choose between schools with only 2 weeks until I have to make a decision. I am currently choosing between an unconditional $15,000 per year + a summer stipend at UCLA (I just sent a reconsideration email to negotiate further) (COA= $245,826; rank=15) and sticker price at Penn (COA= $283,014; rank=7). I’m very privileged to have no debt from undergrad (I chose the scholarship over prestige!), nor do I have a family to support.

    I want to practice public interest right of out law school and pursue “unicorn PI” a few years into my career (e.g. a staff attorney position at a nationally recognized nonprofit). I know I will not be making much money in PI, but I am adamant that big law is not for me. Based on employment stats and my conversations with current students at each school, UCLA seems to have a more robust PI presence than Penn. UCLA places 13.2% in PI, compared to 5.6% at Penn, and students have told me that Penn really pushes big law. Both schools have excellent employment rates overall (over 90%). I am also drawn to the Critical Race Studies program at UCLA, but I recognize that Penn is more prestigious overall, especially on the East Coast.

    I’ve lived in Philly for almost five years and would like to experience a new city for law school, so the idea of living somewhere warm and sunny for three years (i.e. LA) is appealing to me. However, I ultimately want to practice in New York, and Penn places significantly better there (45%) compared to UCLA (7%). Also, 77.3% of UCLA grads stay in California. I’ve never even been to California and am not sure I want to hedge my bets on a strong regional school when I have no idea if I’ll even like that region. At the same time, there’s nothing in my personal life that’s keeping me in Philly, and I’m in a stage of life where a cross-country move is very doable.

    In summation, the pros of UCLA are a lower COA (and less debt as a PI attorney), a stronger PI presence, the Critical Race Studies Program, and the novelty of a new (and much sunnier!) location. The pros of Penn are stronger placement in NY, overall prestige and name recognition on the East Coast, and the ability to navigate law school without having to also navigate a brand new city.

    Thanks so much in advance!

    Emily

    Reply
    • Emily says

      March 28, 2021 at 7:19 pm

      Also, for clarity, the COA I listed does not reflect my scholarship. Subtracting my UCLA scholarship, the adjusted COA would be 200,826.

      Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      March 29, 2021 at 2:35 pm

      Hi Emily,

      Thanks for the message! This is an interesting choice you face, and somewhat different than many of the scenarios I’m asked about. Oftentimes, the desire for prestige is built around the pursuit of certain job types (namely biglaw), and so there’s a demonstrable job placement advantage that’s being “bought” by paying more. However, in your situation, you already have a clear pathway that won’t trade on that type of job. So, with that in mind, let’s talk about some of the factors in play here, and some things you need to look further at.

      First, the UCLA PI advantage in terms of placement is partially because Penn students don’t head down that path. If they wanted to, they could, but for a variety of reasons (including administrative prodding), they tend to go more towards biglaw/clerkships. For example, if you look at clerkships + biglaw placement, UCLA places 58.7% there while Penn places 76.4%. That is a direct function of Penn’s higher ranking and prestige in the legal world (and it’s fairly typical of what you see from high-ranked schools). I say this just so the numbers have context, and they are not seen as causative. That said, UCLA clearly has experience with PI placements, and that is a strength for you here.

      Second, I love LA and lived there for years, but it’s not for everyone 🙂 Westwood is charming and the surrounding areas are certainly nice, but it’s not going to be the city experience you’ve had in Philadelphia. That may be just what the doctor ordered for you, but spend some time researching what West LA is like, because it’s nothing like DC or NYC. The real city environment is in downtown LA, and you’ll be 10 miles from that, and not likely to go there often (and frankly it’s not an East Coast city experience anyway). Westwood and West LA will be more like living in a busy suburb (again, that’s fine, it’s just different from East Coast cities, or even SF).

      Last, look deeply into the LRAP programs at each school. Penn has the Tollrap program to avoid debt for PI grads, but every LRAP program is different, and you’ll actually want to delve deeply into the specific terms of repayment, allowable income post-graduation, etc at each school. But, depending on your qualifications, LRAP can help significantly offset your expected debt, and this is especially applicable to you since you know you’re going PI.

      So, in the final analysis, is Penn worth 80K more? Maybe, especially if the LRAP can help bring that way down. Penn gives you national portability and you can compete for any job—PI or otherwise—coming from there, and especially so on the East Coast vs what UCLA will do for you there. But the price is another 3 years in a city you’ve already been in for 5, and passing up a chance for an entirely new environment. I honestly don’t know the best choice for you here, but I also think that both will serve you well going forward. I’d probably use that LRAP info to help decide.

      Please let me know if that was useful. Thanks!

      Reply
      • Emily says

        March 29, 2021 at 6:48 pm

        Hi Dave,

        Thank you so much for taking the time to provide such a detailed response to my question!

        I definitely plan to read the LRAP policies in more detail, but on their surface, both Penn and UCLA seem to have strong LRAP programs. The income cap is higher at Penn (<$88,500 to receive assistance with the full loan payment) compared to UCLA (<$75,000 to receive the same). However, I don’t expect to make more than $75,000 as an early-career, public interest attorney, so that difference doesn’t worry me.

        If and only if you have the time, my one follow-up question pertains to so-called “unicorn PI.” I would eventually like to work for a nationally recognized nonprofit in New York doing high-impact, public interest litigation. Although I am drawn to the programmatic offerings in PI at UCLA, I have to wonder: Would the prestige of Penn give me a better shot at unicorn PI? I would greatly value your thoughts on this.

        Also, thanks for the rundown of Westwood! I’m a big city person through and through, so I will definitely consider the "busy suburb" feel of the area as I make my decision.

        Thank you so much again. I sincerely appreciate your help! I’m a big fan of your LSAT bibles and the podcast! 🙂

        Emily

        Reply
        • Dave Killoran says

          March 31, 2021 at 12:18 pm

          Hi Emily,

          Great, I’m so glad that helped! And of course I have time for a follow-up 🙂

          So, as with most things in the legal world, brand names matter at these high-level PI positions. For example, last time I checked the ACLU leadership, it was littered with the top law schools like Yale, Harvard, et al. In your case, Penn simply has a more portable and recognizable name than UCLA, and this is doubly so on the East Coast (as you noted before). If NYC is your goal, without considering costs then Penn gives you an edge that UCLA does not.

          Regardless of the school you choose, early on in your 1L year I’d go meet the counselors the school has that specialize in PI, and make friends with them. And network with every public interest attorney that comes through the school. Who you know can have a huge impact, and you want to give yourself the best shot right from the start.

          As for Westwood, in lieu of an actual visit, I’d recommend jumping on Google Earth and doing a sort of flyby of the village. Westwood itself certainly has plenty of commerce, and that might help you get a better lay of the land, and to see how the east side is bordered by a neighborhood (as is the north, but that’s Bel Air so it’s ritzy). There’s a ton to like about the location but you should know what you are getting yourself into if you go there. And feel free to ask me any questions if you want–I helped put my significant other at the time through UCLA undergrad and I taught classes on the UCLA campus so I know a lot about it 🙂

          Thanks!

          Reply
  21. Max says

    March 24, 2021 at 1:54 pm

    Hi Dave,

    I am currently debating between attending 3 schools right now: Pitt, Drexel, and Duquesne. I am from Central Pennsylvania, so I can see myself in either Pittsburgh or Philadelphia, so this isn’t much of an issue. Going through the application process, my goal has been to participate in a dual program where I would receive both my law degree (focus on health law) and a Master’s in Public Health. My dream job would be to work for a government agency, like the Department of Health or FDA and work on health policy, but I can also see myself working anywhere in reality. The statistics for each school are as follows:

    #76 Pitt:
    COA= about $53,000 ($21K in tuition, but currently negotiating)
    Employment Score = 74.2%
    Under-employment = 12.5%
    Public Service: 20.8%
    National Firms: 17.5%
    Regional Firms: 15%

    #93 Drexel:
    COA= about $58,000 ($18K in tuition)
    Employment Score = 80.6%
    Under-employment = 7.5%
    Public Service: 11.9%
    National Firms: 11.9%
    Regional Firms: 20.1%

    #122 Duquesne
    COA= about $32,000 ($0 in tuition)
    Employment Score = 71.6%
    Under-employment = 9.2%
    Public Service: 14.7%
    National Firms: 5.5%
    Regional Firms: 19.3%

    Some Extra Information:

    Pitt: Their second highest landing spot for alumni is in DC. They have a semester in DC program where you can intern for various government departments, so this would be incredibly helping in landing a job at a federal agency. Of the three schools, the health law program at Pitt is the best. After touring, I found myself really enjoying the atmosphere and people at the law school.

    Drexel: This is a very young law school and has jumped in the rankings over the past several years, so there is a possibility that this school has a bright and competitive future. I have already been accepted into the Master’s program and have been offered an additional $23,000 scholarship towards it. However, unlike the other two schools, there has been very little engagement with admitted students in the forms of e-mails and open houses, which has been kind of a turn-off. The only tours they offer are virtual, so it is hard to get a feel for the school itself.

    Duquesne: They have offered me a position as a Dean’s Scholar, which includes a full tuition scholarship and invitations to various leadership seminars, along with a special reception with the Dean. I was left a great impression by this school’s admissions team who called me personally to inform me of my scholarship, and the Assistant Dean of Admissions herself gave me personal tour on a Saturday morning. Unlike Pitt, Duquesne is right next to the Downtown area of the city where several big firms are located, allowing students to work during their 2 and 3L years. They do not offer a dual degree program with a Master’s of Public Health, but they do have a dual program where I can earn a Master’s in Healthcare Ethics.

    Please let me know if there is anymore info you would like! Hope you can be of assistance!

    Thanks,
    Max

    Reply
    • Max says

      March 24, 2021 at 1:55 pm

      Oh, I have also been waitlisted at Richmond, Temple, and Cardozo. I’m not sure if that really changes anything in terms of what you will say, but wanted to make sure you had all of the information!

      Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      March 24, 2021 at 4:47 pm

      Hey Max,

      Thanks for the info! I’m at a bit of a disadvantage here since I don’t specialize in health care related programs, so please take the below with that in mind 🙂

      Based on what you said I’d lean toward Pitt. You liked the place and people, their health program is the best, they have the strongest national placement and good placement into DC. Those are all strong positive, and the cost is less than Drexel. Drexel is indeed growing, but you can’t bet on the future of a school or its ranking/prestige–things can change there. And it’s more expensive for a lower ranking and lower job stats. Yes, the Philly location is a plus, but that’s their big advantage right now. Duquesne isn’t that much cheaper, and they don’t have the health program you like. If you think the personal touch they showed was a game changer, then by all means keep them in. But based on what you’ve said, it would seem like Pitt would be the leader right now.

      FYI, the WL schools don’t change anything since they aren’t solid yet.

      Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

      Reply
      • Max says

        March 24, 2021 at 5:42 pm

        Thanks Dave! This was super helpful!

        Reply
  22. Mads says

    March 18, 2021 at 11:23 am

    Hi Dave! I appreciate all the help you’re offering to potential students in this tough decision making time! I’ve narrowed my choices down to three waitlisted top 50 schools and Villanova. I am wondering if I should express my undying love in a LoCI and promise to accept if admitted to any of the top 50’s, “take the money and run” at Villanova, or reapply next cycle.

    WASH U (#17)
    Waitlisted, (presumably) no scholarship – COA @ $63,000 a year
    – National school with great employment outcomes and median salary
    – Not interested in practicing in St. Louis
    – I’m undecided in the type of law I want to practice, so there is a fear in not being able to pay back the debt if I don’t go biglaw
    GW (#22)
    Waitlisted, no scholarship – COA @ $63,000 a year
    – National school with the same perks of employment and salary
    – DC is my second choice city to practice in (next to Atlanta)
    – Debt
    EMORY (#24)
    Waitlisted, no scholarship – COA @ $62,000 a year
    – National school with the same perks
    – I was an undergraduate student at Emory and loved my time at Emory and in Atlanta- It feels like home to me
    – I hope to practice in Atlanta long term
    – Debt
    VILLANOVA (#62)
    Unconditional, $40,000 a year scholarship – COA @ $9,000 a year
    – Interested in the possibility of pursuing sports law, which they have one of the best programs for nationally, but not set on it
    – It’s not Atlanta, but I wouldn’t mind working in Philadelphia or DC
    – “Big fish in a small pond” argument. Because of my scholarship I might have a better chance of being in the top 10% of my class
    – I have an opportunity to negotiate my scholarship to full tuition based on a full tuition offer at a comparable school

    With how competitive this admissions cycle has been, I’m wondering if reapplying next cycle would potentially give me more scholarship money and acceptance to schools I’m currently waitlisted at. However, am I giving up the “bird in the hand” at Villanova and inviting them to give me less money if I reapplied? I’m curious to know your thoughts. Thanks in advance!

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      March 19, 2021 at 5:02 pm

      Hi Mads,

      Thanks for the questions! Let’s start at the end, first, with “I’m wondering if reapplying next cycle would potentially give me more scholarship money and acceptance to schools I’m currently waitlisted at.” Quite likely this is the case, but I can’t entirely tell since I can’t see your numbers. they were clearly competitive since you made WLs, and I do think next year will be less competitive than this year. By how much is anyone’s guess at this point though.

      As for your four schools, that’s very tough. As a reference for anyone else reading, here’s the basic LST comparison: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/villanova/emory/gw/washu. Any of the 3 WL schools leave you with around $190K of debt vs $27K debt at Villanova, and that is a serious difference. And when you look at employment stats, you can see that Nova does fairly well in comparison–perhaps surprisingly so. It’s also tough on the WL schools because Emory seems to have been struggling a bit recently, yet that’s your preferred location, and WashU is the strongest of the three employment-wise, but less of an interest for you location-wise. I’m not sure I’d pay the full ride at Emory when Villanova fares reasonably well in comparison, to be honest. And I might only pay for WashU if biglaw is a strong desire, since their biglaw numbers are almost three times better than Villanova. So, no matter which way you go here, it’s going to be a tough call. The best answer will come down to what you really want vs how much you are willing to pay for it.

      I hope that helps a bit. Thanks!

      Reply
  23. Rebecca Camarena says

    March 1, 2021 at 3:26 pm

    Hi Dave,

    I am currently trying to decide if getting off waitlists is worth virtually committing to the school if taken off knowing that a scholarship is not guaranteed or the norm for waitlisted students. My goal is to be on the East Coast and study International law at some capacity, working for a private or public firm when graduated. Here is the situation I am trying to navigate.

    Waitlisted Schools:
    1. Fordham (#27) – 0 – 280,239
    – pros: location, rank, connection opportunities/ job security
    – cons: debt
    2. Boston College (#31)- 0 – 245, 259
    – pros: location, rank, connection opportunities
    – cons: debt

    Schools accepted with Scholarship:
    1. Northeastern (67) – 90,000- total with scholarship taken into consideration 133,509
    – pros: location, practical experience, have interested fields
    – cons: lower rank, competition with BC and BU students
    2. Temple (56)- 81,000- total with scholarship taken into consideration 110,442
    – pros: location, practical experience, have interested fields, students get jobs on graduation
    – cons: lower rank
    3. Penn State Dickinson (62)- full ride- total with scholarship taken into consideration 71,418
    – pros: practical experience, debt free
    – cons: lower rank, location, not interested greatly in curriculum opportunities
    4. American (78) – 120, 000- total with scholarship taken into consideration 94,006
    – pros: practical experience, less debt, amazing for international law
    – cons: lower rank, only known in DC, competition with GW students, only focused in international law greater competition for clinic etc…

    Please advise if you think getting off the waitlist is worth trying and committing to Fordham or Boston College or if another option would be best. Thank you in advance!

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      March 1, 2021 at 6:32 pm

      Hi Rebecca,

      I’m not entirely following you here in terms of the “virtually committing to the school” comment. Are you saying you’d make an offer to the school that if they let you in, you’d for sure attend? People do that a lot and they don’t always follow through FYI. People even double-deposit at different schools with some frequency, so keep in mind the choice here is about doing what’s best for you.

      That aside, to me your best choices here are Fordham, BC, and PSU-Dickinson. The first two for the ranking and major city location, the third because it’s the best of the offers you have of the other schools in terms of the rankings/debt balance (and based on the money they are putting into the school, I expect their ranking to rise further in coming years).

      With PSU, what is it about the curriculum that’s a problem? A good part of law school is preset, and your first year is pretty much the same everywhere. So, is it the lack of specific Intl law classes thereafter? Assuming so, you should look more deeply into that if you can, and talk directly to staff and students there.

      After that, you are looking at what is to me a very clear purchase point: you would be paying $175K-$210K in extra debt for a rankings increase of 31-35 places (and the resultant job outcomes/prestige, etc). Here’s a nice comparison snapshot: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/dickinson/bc/fordham. There’s no doubt that both Fordham and BC have a much better biglaw placement rate, so if that ability to grab a bigger job is key, then the debt may be reasonable. But if you aren’t committed to at least heavily pursuing that path, it’s a lot of money to take on. The problem is, only you can make that call there!

      Good luck and thanks!

      Reply
  24. Erin says

    February 28, 2021 at 5:33 pm

    Hi Dave,

    I would greatly appreciate your insight on my top choices. I am interested in working at a small to midsize firm doing Trust and Estate Law. I don’t have any specific place I want to live, but preferably would enjoy a population of 100,000 – 500,000. I’m currently in Texas, but from Nebraska, so I received in-state tuition to both of those places. I am concerned about debt, as I have 60k from undergrad. Biglaw sounds awful, but I am worried this opinion may change once I enter law school. I don’t want to give up on biglaw when I don’t know much about it, so this factor is making the prestige vs. scholarship decision harder. I am able to submit reconsideration forms with Texas and Georgia (but I would have to commit ASAP once new offer is released), so there is a possibility those two schools could get a bit cheaper. Right now, my top options from below are Texas, Georgia, and Utah.

    US ranking/Above the Law ranking

    #16/15 University of Texas (8,000/yr scholarship) Total COA – $147,000
    Small firm – 6.40% Overall Employment – 85.50%

    #22/16 Notre Dame (25,000/yr scholarship) Total COA – $171,000
    Small firm – 1.60% Overall Employment – 86.00%

    #31/18 University of Georgia (in-state and 12,500/yr scholarship) Total COA – $78,870
    Small firm – 12.70% Overall Employment – 89.50% (Not UBE)

    #38/30 University of Wisconsin (full tuition and fees) Total COA – $66,000
    Small firm – 17.40% Overall Employment – 85.20% (Not UBE)

    #45/none University of Utah (full tuition plus GA stipend) Total COA – $56,250
    Small firm – 23.50% Overall Employment – 74.10%

    #76/49 University of Nebraska (full tuition and fees) Total COA – $54,000
    Small firm – 24.80% Overall Employment – 76.10%

    How do you view these options and if I were to submit reconsideration forms to Texas and Georgia, which schools would you use to negotiate?

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      March 1, 2021 at 12:13 pm

      Hi Erin,

      Thanks for the nice rundown of your options! A few thoughts here:

      • Given your description of law interest and desired city size, I’m not sure you need to worry about biglaw so much. While it’s incredibly attractive on the salary scale, not many people “love” practicing it because it’s a meat grinder. Sure there are exceptions, but it’s a major commitment in terms of work, and the idea of “life/work balance” largely doesn’t exist–it becomes your life. In other words, usually in these value/prestige decisions something has to give, and you are already signalling in multiple ways that the prestige factor (in terms of biglaw hiring) may be less important to you.

      • With that in mind, let’s narrow your list. Texas knock out Notre Dame in my opinion because it’s cheaper and it’s T14. Georgia knocks out Wisconsin as it has better job outcomes overall, and they are worth the extra $12K. Utah and Nebraska are a toss up to me, but you seem to favor Utah so we’ll keep them. With that, my list matches yours: Texas, Georgia, and Utah. Taking it one step further, I personally would think Georgia’s current offer knocks out Utah’s offer, which would put you at Texas or Georgia.

      • Let’s look at negotiation. With Texas, you don’t have a true comp school. Schools won’t compete with other schools they deem not to be on their level, and no school here matches Texas. I think you can try using Notre Dame, but I seriously doubt that Texas will view them as a real competitor. Regardless, what’s the harm in taking a shot? With Georgia, use Notre Dame again. They will accept the comp but the problem is they will know the costs (schools don’t just compare scholarships, they look at your COA too). You can mention Wisconsin as well, but I’m not sure Georgia will care about them.

      Depending on how things shake out, I think you could attend either of these schools and be happy and successful. Texas will cost more but has a higher national profile whereas Georgia is cheaper but doesn’t deliver the big jobs as well. Is that $70K difference worth the bigger draw? If your initial description of your job interests is accrutae, then it’s not. But if you really want the biglaw door open, then it is. Only you can make that call 🙂

      I hope that helps!

      Reply
      • Erin says

        March 1, 2021 at 10:23 pm

        Dave,

        Thank you so much for the advice! I have a couple follow up questions.
        1. Would the fact the Georgia is not a UBE state sway you? I’m not stuck to any location, but I would like the ability to go other places after school.
        2. Would you just use Notre Dame for a Georgia reconsideration, or should I include Texas, as well?

        Reply
        • Dave Killoran says

          March 3, 2021 at 8:18 pm

          Hi Erin,

          Thanks for the reply! Here you go:

          1. No, that does not.
          2. I’d likely focus on ND. Texas is a big jump from Georgia currently, and they know that 🙂

          Thanks!

          Reply
  25. Arabella says

    February 16, 2021 at 8:53 pm

    Hi Dave! First, I just wanted to say I took a Powerscore course while studying for the LSAT and loved it! Thank you for all that you do! Regarding my acceptances, I was accepted to Hofstra, NYLS and Pace all with conditional scholarships. My top choice was Rutgers, but I was unfortunately just under their median LSAT and rejected. I’m so unsure of which school I should choose – I have been hearing a lot about NYLS’ predatory conditional scholarship practices which makes me wary and as far as Pace, I don’t want to work in environmental law post graduation. In discussing with a current Pace student, she said she felt that the electives were environmental heavy. Lastly, Pace and NYLS are the best for me location wise, but I know that Hofstra has the best reputation. Thank you in advance for your help!

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      February 17, 2021 at 10:57 am

      Hi Arabella,

      Congratulations on the acceptances! To provide any specific help here, I need to know your total Cost of Attendance (COA). And, do you have any specific career goals aside from not wanting to be environmental law?

      Thanks!

      Reply
  26. Madison says

    February 11, 2021 at 8:33 am

    Hello Dave!

    I am desperately in need of some advice, as I am torn between the classic scholarship vs. prestige decision. I was admitted it UCI with a 90k scholarship over 3 years. It is contingent on maintaining a 2.5 GPA. My other option is Pepperdine, currently ranked 47 and they have offered me the Dean’s Merit Scholarship of 165k over the 3 years, again contingent that I maintain a 2.8 GPA. Pepperdine is currently ranked 47th and UCI is ranked 27th. I’m on the waitlist at UCLA, so where I am now these are my top contenders and my best options 🙂 COA is about the same at these two schools, so by my estimates, I would have about 120,000 in debt from UCI but only 42,000 from Pepperdine. Biglaw was not necessarily a goal of mine when embarking on the law school journey, but I am not averse to entering Biglaw for a few years to pay off my debt if I took the UCI route.

    I guess my question is what most people have been asking on this thread! Is the prestige of UCI valuable enough to warrant the extra 78,000 in debt?

    Thank you Dave! 🙂

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      February 19, 2021 at 1:40 pm

      Hi Madison,

      Thanks for the message and sorry for the delayed reply–I missed this somehow! This is a good question, and it’s nice to be able to perfectly quantify the difference between these two schools: $78K. UCI is a relatively new school, and a fast riser at that, so determining the “prestige” aspect here can be more challenging than at a more “established” school. So, let’s turn to the numbers and see what we get: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/irvine/pepperdine.

      Just on the surface, you begin to see that UCI has better “prestige” stats than Pepperdine:

      Fed Clerkships: 2.8% vs 1.7%
      All Clerkships: 7.1% vs 6.2%
      National Firms: 24.1% vs 6.7%

      The National firms placement is probably the most important there because the difference is fairly stark: 1 out of every 4 UCI grads go into big firms; at Pepperdine it’s 1 out of 15. 1 out of 4 is no lock but it’s far better than 1 out of 15, and that’s what your money is buying you here.

      My lean here would be UCI since you’ll have greater portability in coming years adn better options out of the gate, but I’m cognizant that $78K is a significant additional debt sum. So, now you have to weigh that cost vs the extra benefit.

      Good luck!

      Reply
  27. Jim says

    January 28, 2021 at 9:57 am

    Hi Dave,

    I have been stuck for some time now on a decision between a few NY based law schools.

    I was admitted to Fordham (about 300k), which is the highest ranked school I could attend anywhere. However, I was also given full scholarships at St.Johns and Brooklyn Law, in addition to approximately a third of tuition at Cardozo (3 year total of 115k).

    I will be taking out loans for the full cost of whatever school I attend, in addition to living expenses. For someone who has never been in debt before, I am pretty concerned about having that financial obligation limit my career options to only the highest paying/highest pressure jobs.

    I foresee two potential undesirable scenarios with regard to either taking the money or the prestige:

    1) If I take the money and run, I will obviously have to work my tail off to put myself in the same conversation as a Fordham grad, not to mention Columbia, NYU, and the other NY school grads. If I fail to place in the top 10 or 25 percent of my class, where does that leave me in terms of career options in a highly competitive job market?

    2) If I attend Fordham at sticker price, I am sure I will have more connections and job advantages coming out, but the question is whether I want to work in Big Law or not. What happens if I leave Fordham after three years with 300k in debt, and don’t want to work a Big Law job? Or what if I don’t rank well in my class, and don’t even have the option to work a Big Law job that I might need to pay off that debt?

    Frankly, this position is made more difficult by my not knowing what exactly what I want to do with my law degree. I’d like to work towards more than just my own bottom line in my career, and perhaps do something public interest oriented. At the same time, I have worked jobs where I am just scraping by, and it is not a fun place to be.

    I understand this is a pretty subjective choice, but any additional insight or info would be really helpful.

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      January 28, 2021 at 1:34 pm

      Hi Jim,

      Thanks for the message! This is indeed another classic money vs prestige decision so let’s look at it. With question #1, that changes every year, and some years are just fine and others it’s a tough ride. There’s just no way to know in advance, so if you’re like me, I always assume it will be on the tougher side when you come out. that way, everything else is a bonus.

      With #2, you have to look at the numbers: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/fordham/cardozo. employment scores are very similar, but inside those numbers you can see Fordham has advantages in hiring at national firms (biglaw!) among others. That advantage (47.7% vs 17.7%) is what costs you roughly $185K more according to your estimates. Is that worth it? I’m not sure I’d think it was worth that much, but I’m not in your shoes.

      Speaking of which, I’m not sure you have a solid feel/desire to go biglaw anyway given your comment that “but the question is whether I want to work in Big Law or not.” The best thing I can say here is that’s quite a bit to pay for something that you aren’t at all sure about. Your general uncertainty would strongly suggest avoiding massive debt; that frees you up to do the greatest number of things, all at the cost of have a lessened shot at biglaw (which may not be your thing anyway).

      I hope that helps. thanks and let me know what you decide, I’d love to know!

      Reply
  28. Zachery Engsberg says

    October 21, 2020 at 1:14 pm

    Hello, I am a current 1L attending Marquette law school. I am in an unconventional situation. I attended Marquette as an undergraduate student for a major in biomedical sciences and a minor in philosophy. I was also accepted into a pre-law scholar program which allows a student, if they finish the requirements for their given major by his/her third year of undergraduate studies, to apply to attend Marquette Law for his/her fourth year to finish the credit requirements for his/her undergraduate degree while concurrently fulfilling credit as a 1L student at Marquette Law. I completed the requirements for my major and minor in the given three years with a 3.438 GPA and an LSAT score of 159. I don’t dislike Marquette Law school. It is a highly respected school in the region, and if I graduate here I wouldn’t need to take the BAR to practice in Wisconsin if that is what I want to do. Tuition for attendance here is $48,980 and my scholarship looks to be $23,000. After I graduate and complete my 1L year I am considering transferring to a different law school. I have no specific desire to stay in Milwaukee long term in my life, and if I can find a law school that is a better fit for my goals in a different region of the country I think it is something worth hard consideration. The primary school that has caught my interest is Brooklyn Law School. First of all, Marquette is ranked 102 and Brooklyn is ranked 83. With my undergraduate background in medical sciences I want to attend a school that is well ranked in Health Law. Brooklyn upon my research is well ranked, and I can’t find where Marquette ranks in that category. Brooklyn also appears to offer a wider breadth of classes relavent to my interest in health law than Marquette. Brooklyn tuition is $62,297 and by the info on their site they do consider transfer students for partial scholarship upon application. In addition to entering a new living environment at a better ranked school, my primary interest outside of developing skills as a law student is developing skills in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I have a passion for the sport, and believe developing the skills to earn a black belt benefit me by providing fitness, confidence in self defense, and ability to adapt to dynamic problem solving situations. The best school to learn at the moment is Renzo Gracie Academy in New York. The primary teacher there practices a systematic approach to the sport and a philosophy that resonates with my own. I can learn and practice the sport at a gym anywhere, but the best place I can think of to improve my skills as sharply and quickly as possible would be there. Developing skills and experience during my 2L and 3L years to find a suitable niche for my skillset in the field of health law, and developing my skills as a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu practitioner at the one of the best places in the world at the same time definitely appeals to me. However, the living expenses of attending Brooklyn would certainly be higher than in Milwaukee. This may be partially offset if a get a good summer associate position and find a decent paying part time job, but it certainly appears I’ll incur more debt finishing my degree in Brooklyn. I do have passion for serving the public good and that getting my law degree will come with skills I want to have, but I don’t consider myself someone who has an interest in working 50 hour work weeks with a firm practicing something I don’t have passion for. I want to be able to work 4 days a week in whatever legal/medical niche I find my skillset applicable for, and spend the rest of my time pursuing my interests and passions for Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, cooking, and promoting a healthy and community involved lifestyle. With these factors in mind I find it difficult to weigh my options and get a good idea of the consequences of either choice. Thanks for any advice!

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      October 23, 2020 at 7:13 pm

      Hi Zachery,

      This is an unusual question, in part because your motivation seems to be based on lifestyle factors, not academic ones. That’s not the norm, mainly because most law students don’t have time for an outside interest/hobby that takes up a lot of time.

      That aside, my first reaction is that we typically advise people that when transferring, especially if you will be paying more, try to make a greater leap than from 102 to 83. To pay more for that—especially when nationally a lot of people have at least heard the Marquette name—is hard for me to swallow.

      I’d also be very wary of niche rankings as being meaningful. Sure, NYU is well known for tax law and that’s a big plus, but they are near the top of the heap as far as general reputation. I don’t know of anyone really trumpeting Brooklyn as a health law powerhouse, and so I’d be wary of making a distinction here when I’m not certain there’s a big one.

      So, for me, this decision comes down to: paying a fair bit more for a largely lateral move in order to get better Jiu Jitsu training access. If that extra cost is worth it to you, go for it! You want to be happy and that will help your grades most likely if you are happier. But look carefully at those costs since you are paying all that—plus those training fees—for that academy.

      Best of luck!

      Reply
  29. Randy says

    September 24, 2020 at 1:42 am

    Hey Dave,

    I am just preparing my applications now, and hope to score at/over a 175 LSAT and ask for fee waivers, but I am wondering if it even matters. I have more than 100k of undergrad and grad school debt. I am committed to paying as little as possible for law school. Ideally a full ride but that might be negotiable based on ranking. I also really want to go to a school with a great program which for me means strong international focus/international law programs/clinics and a strong clinical program in general. I am also prioritizing low cost of living, though again have made an exception for Northwestern and Chicago.

    As a supersplitter with an LSAT presumably above 99th percentile but a uGPA around 2.5 would international work experience and a grad GPA of 3.9ish be enough to incline any of my T14 schools to spend a 75%-full scholarship on me or should I just concentrate outside of T14? My top choices in a perfect world are Duke, UVA, Northwestern, Chicago, Michigan, Texas, Wash U, and only with major scholarship: Georgetown for context. Beyond that I would likely delay a cycle but have Emory, Penn, Vanderbilt, hometown UNC, Minn, ND, W&L, W&M, ASU, BU, and Georgia as interesting schools. I hope to work in international law, ideally human/civil rights and have no interest in BigLaw. Longterm I would prefer a mid-sized or international city to live in.

    Could major scholarships be on the table at T14 or is it not worth stressing over? Given that I want to work internationally would I be better off taking my likely full/near full ride at Wash U over smaller scholarships at the T14? How would your answer change at 0, 1/3, 1/2, 3/4 scholarship at T14?

    I do not know if you have good answers for these questions, I just have been feeling like my Duke/NU dreams are not realistic lately and, given there is nothing I can do about a 10 year old undergrad GPA, am wondering if it even matters if I apply aside from maybe helping to negotiate more aid at Wash U.

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      September 24, 2020 at 1:24 pm

      Hi Randy,

      Thanks for the message. I can provide some insight, but candidates who come in with numbers like yours are rather rare, so there’s not a whole lot of data on acceptance rates.

      The first, and most important, point here is that your undergrad GPA is the controlling one, to the extent that your grad GPA is just a footnote. Grad GPA is not reported to the ABA, and there’s a sense among adcomms that grad GPAs are routinely inflated. It’s are a plus, but it will in no way offset your undergrad GPA. That’s the one that gets reported, and it is how the law schools will view and rate you 🙁

      This means that almost immediately your chances for admission in the T14 plummet significantly, and I’m sorry to be the one to deliver that news. And with acceptances being rather rare with that GPA, you can imagine the chances for any scholarship money at a T14 are extremely low. So, if I were in your shoes I’d not spend a whole lot of time on the T14.

      As for schools outside the T14, I think the range of outcomes/financial offers right now is far too big to make projections. I’m not certain at all that you’d be looking at big scholarships at every school you mentioned however. At WashU, for example, you have a reasonable chance at an admit but it’s not a lock by any means, and when that occurs the scholarships they offer are affected in a downward manner. And so it will more likely be a situation where you make final decisions once you have all the numbers in front of you vs speculating now when we have very few ideas how your unique numerical combination will play out 🙂

      I personally hate the policy on old GPAs being controlling still, but that’s the way it’s been for decades in this field. So, my best advice is to take it step by step: get that high LSAT score first–this is critically important for you! Then apply and see what happens, and so on. You’ll know a lot more in a few months and that will narrow the likely outcomes and make it easier to discuss 🙂

      Thanks!

      Reply
  30. Jake says

    August 26, 2020 at 2:17 pm

    Hi! I’m currently a couple days from making a final call. It’s weird timing, as classes start next week at both schools, but the circumstances are kind of unique. I am currently choosing between Harvard and Georgetown. I am using the GI Bill, so there is no money issue here. But here’s the lay of the land as I see it:

    GEORGETOWN:
    – Marginal cost (GI Bill + scholarship covers about 99% of cost)
    – I’ve been admitted to Georgetown’s evening program, which means I will be able to stay in the Navy and keep both my commission and my full salary while I’m in law school. The downside is that working and school at the same time will be a lot. The upside is that living expenses are covered, and I’ll finish law school with enough saved to buy a house. Also, while I am not a Navy “lifer,” I do like it, and would miss it if I left just yet.
    – Love DC. Been stationed here before. Enjoy the city, though it has started to feel a bit stale.
    – Like the idea of going to school with other working professionals. I’m in my early 30s, so seems like we may have more in common.
    – Georgetown has a broader range of courses in an area I’m super passionate about (National Security Law)

    HARVARD
    – The prestige is tempting. In a big way.
    – I’m interested in clerking and I’m interested in academia (though I’m not married to either of these, and have very little need to clerk for the Supreme Court or teach at a prestigious law school. Clerking at a district court or teaching in a place with a decent LGBT community is just fine).
    – The network. I have some long term career goals that I think a network like Harvard’s could help me achieve in a way that I’m not sure a lower ranked school’s could.
    – The idea of being able to focus on myself and school for a bit is a positive. Taking work out of the equation might leave a little time to…ya know…date.
    – The GI Bill + Yellow Ribbon covers everything, but the ~$29k a year housing stipend from the GI Bill allows me to just scrape by vs the ~105k salary I’d keep at Georgetown. Wouldn’t be doing a lot of saving at Harvard (which would follow separating from the Navy ie. a pension)
    – Living in Boston/Cambridge is very appealing. I really like New England and would like to try living somewhere new.

    PERSONAL GOALS:
    – I am pretty flexible, and have a lot of confidence that I can get myself where I need to go regardless of where I go to school. But I’m mindful that I may discover some as-of-yet unknown passion that is better served by a better network or more prestigious name.
    – Very interested in working in policy in DC, especially in National Security or Education policy; OR moving home to North Carolina to practice (child advocacy or maybe trying to work for the state or the US Attorney’s Office). Pretty broad interests. Long term (10-15 years down the road) I definitely want to be in NC, but how long it takes to get there is flexible.
    – Not opposed to some detours along the way to clerk or live in a new city (NYC, LA, etc…)

    Currently leaning towards Georgetown, but definitely looking for someone to sanity check this call. Thanks!

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      August 26, 2020 at 5:17 pm

      Hi Jake,

      Thanks for the message! Great rundown of your situation as well, so thanks very much for that 🙂

      I think your current lean to Georgetown is entirely reasonable and defensible. There’s nothing that Harvard gives you in a concrete way that outweighs what you know you would get at Georgetown. The benefits of Harvard here are a step up in prestige and job outcomes (and that’s nice, but it’s not as if Gtown is some slacker school) vs the hard cash benefit of keeping a job you like and still receiving your salary in a town you like and where you’d love to practice (not to mention already being settled there, so no mad dash up to Cambridge). If you were committed to academia or federal clerking, I’d say Harvard would better serve you, but even then Georgetown is not terrible. So, for me, I think you are sane and thinking in a level way 🙂

      Congrats on the great acceptances and best of luck in law school!

      Reply
  31. Sam says

    August 12, 2020 at 2:50 pm

    Hi Dave,

    I am currently deciding between:
    American (120K scholarship I didn’t negotiate, big mistake)
    BC (54K scholarship).

    American recently discounted their tuition 10 percent due to COVID and BC did not.

    So COA at AU (assuming 10 percent discount goes for this year) is : 13K + 19K + 19K = 51K in tuition
    and COA at BC is : 39K + 39K + 39K = 118K in tuition

    Let’s assume living expenses are the same.

    COA difference is about 70K over 3 years.

    The goal is BL on the east coast. I’ve been a paralegal at a V30 in DC for the past year and hope to return, but won’t be crushed if that doesn’t happen. Considering OCI is only 11-12 months away, I should be okay if I go to BC and keep in contact right?

    I would love to hear what you think!

    -Sam

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      August 21, 2020 at 2:46 pm

      Hi Sam,

      Thanks for the message! So, BC for $70K more total is the overall cost breakdown, and I’d agree that’s the better choice here for your goals 🙂 Their placement into DC isn’t huge, but I’d suspect that’s more a product of being so close to Boston and NYC and having those be more attractive to grads relatively speaking. Either way, a year away isn’t a big deal, and if you keep your connections alive, you’ll be just fine in my opinion. So, I’d say go for it with a clear conscience!

      Thanks and best of luck to you!

      Reply
  32. Noah says

    July 28, 2020 at 6:31 pm

    Hey Dave,

    I am currently stuck in a situation that thankfully is a good problem but one that I am looking for advice on. I have committed to New York Law School on a $40,000/year scholarship with the conditions that I stay in the top 50% of my class. I just found out today that I have been accepted off of the waitlist at Yeshiva University (Cardozo) Law and given an unconditional $20,000/year scholarship.

    After doing all of the relevant research, Cardozo is ranked 53 nationally, with a bar passage rate of 85%, and a median starting (private sector) salary of $70k/year. The full time tuition for Cardozo is $62,408/year, and with my scholarship will result in a total attendance cost of $42,408/year. NYLS is ranked 129 nationally, with a bar passage rate of 59%, and a median starting (private sector) salary of $100k/year. The full time tuition for NYLS is $54,382/year, and with my scholarship will result in a total attendance cost of $14,382/year.

    I attended the University of Maryland and graduated with a 3.7 GPA and degrees in Criminology/criminal justice, and Communications. Based on my background, I am aspiring to practice as an attorney and potentially looking litigation, criminal law, personal injury/medical malpractice law, and various other concentrations. I have yet to decide whether I am looking to work in a big law firm or a medium/small firm. Regardless, I am looking for the best option to keep all of my doors open and give me the best chance of finding a good job with a good salary.

    As you can see, there is a drastic difference in total cost of attendance, and starting salary leaning towards NYLS. There is also a drastic difference in ranking, bar passage rate, and reputation, leaning towards Cardozo. Based on my past performance, I know that I will be able to work hard and succeed in law school, regardless of the school I attend. Based on my LSAT score and college GPA, I definitely feel that I will be able to perform closer to the top of my class at NYLS.

    Any thoughts or recommendations that you have would be greatly appreciated!

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      July 29, 2020 at 7:07 pm

      Hi Noah,

      Thanks for the message! This is an interesting one. A few thoughts:

      • I’m not a big fan of conditional scholarships. No matter how much faith you have in yourself, law school is unlike any learning you’ve done before. And there’s also no way to predict what might happen in life, such as if you should fall ill, etc. Or, you know, a pandemic 🙂

      • I’m skeptical of the NYLS private placement salary number. As in, very suspicious. Is it a case of lies, damn lies, and statistics? Because if only a handful of their top students get private jobs, that would make the salary number there look much better than reality. I say this because in most areas NYLS trails Cardozo, especially in big firm placement. So, I’d do more research there if you can.

      • NYLS has an attrition rate that is fairly substantial: 6.9% of 1Ls. To me that’s always a bad sign, and I flag it to you so you are aware. One out of every fourteen students in your class are gone at the end of the year. By comparison, Cardozo’s rate is 1.4%.

      The above three points aside, you are looking at NYLS at $42K if things go reasonably well vs Cardozo at three times that, or $127K. Here’s where you need to try to narrow your interests, because you gave a really broad rundown of options: “Based on my background, I am aspiring to practice as an attorney and potentially looking litigation, criminal law, personal injury/medical malpractice law, and various other concentrations. I have yet to decide whether I am looking to work in a big law firm or a medium/small firm.” For some of those, NYLS is perfect, but for others, it’s Cardozo. So, I would suggest sitting down for a bit and doing some research, talk to some attorneys, and generally see if you can make the window of choice a bit less than it is currently.

      I can see an argument for both options, so I think you need to look inside your aspirations for the final choice. Let your career goals be the guide here!

      Thanks!

      Reply
      • Noah says

        August 2, 2020 at 3:50 pm

        Hey Dave,

        Thank you so much for the insightful and helpful information! I was able to negotiate slightly with Cardozo and they raised my scholarship by $6,000 per year. Based on your information and discussing with a few others, I came to the decision to accept my Cardozo seat for the Fall. I felt that it would open more doors for me and allow me to really explore all of the potential avenues of law that I may want to practice. Thank you again for all of your help!

        Reply
        • Dave Killoran says

          August 4, 2020 at 1:54 pm

          Hi Noah,

          That’s great–congratulations! I think you’ve made an excellent choice:)

          Good luck!

          Reply
  33. James says

    July 17, 2020 at 6:39 pm

    Dave,

    Thanks a bunch for all your advice, it really helps! I actually just got offered a 25k/yr scholarship to UNC today, so that makes the decision a little tougher. While 25k/yr doesn’t cover out-of-state tuition, UNC has told me that I can claim residency status as a 2L and 3L as long as I moved to Chapel Hill before orientation and stayed for 365 days. Therefore, the scholarship would cover all of tuition for my 2L and 3L years. My family is prepared to cover all the general living expenses wherever I go, so tuition is the primary concern in this monetary dilemma. I’d like to get out of the MS/AL area as I’ve lived in Birmingham most of my life, so the Raleigh area is very attractive to me. Does the scholarship change your perspective on the situation?

    P.S. Still on the waitlist for Duke so maybe you can make a call for me 😉 kidding of course

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      July 17, 2020 at 7:46 pm

      Hey James,

      Thanks for the reply! So, now we’re down to UNC for about $40K total vs Alabama on full ride? At this point, I think you make the call that you feel best about, which I’d say is UNC based on everything you’ve said. You’d have a greater portability in DC with that degree, and the cost is far more manageable than before. I’d say you’re good to get out of Alabama 🙂

      Side note: Raleigh is pretty far away from Carolina (it’s about 30 miles away iirc), but Chapel Hill is awesome and a great small town. The Triangle in general is cool so I’m sure you’ll enjoy all parts of it.

      Have fun and work hard!

      Reply
  34. James says

    July 16, 2020 at 3:48 am

    Hi! I’m currently in between two law schools for the start of the fall semester and I have to make my decision within a week. I studied chemical engineering in undergrad, and plan to pursue a career in patent law. The two schools I’m deciding between are the University of Alabama and UNC Chapel Hill. I was offered a full-tuition scholarship to Alabama and no $ is being offered from UNC right now.

    While my initial impression is to obviously take the scholarship to UA and be debt-free, I live in Birmingham and would like to practice law in the D.C. area or Texas after law school so I feel as if studying in Alabama will place me back in Birmingham or Atlanta. UNC’s ranking this year is slightly higher than UA; however, I’m not sure if the reputations follow suit. Is the reputation at UNC historically higher than UA, or is UA a better option for national job placement over UNC?

    Thank you so much for your time and consideration during this unpredictable time.

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      July 16, 2020 at 2:29 pm

      Hi James,

      As a Duke grad, this is an easy one for me: avoid UNC 🙂

      Ok, I’m just kidding. I’m actually a big fan of UNC in general and have positive feelings towards their law school. That said, what you have here is:

      Alabama, ranked #31, for basically free
      UNC, ranked #27, for around $200K over three years

      Right away I’m going to tell you that it’s going to be quite hard to justify paying $200K for Carolina, but let’s look at the jobs and see what you are “buying” with going there at that cost.

      LST’s comparison:

      https://www.lstreports.com/compare/unc/alabama/

      Alabama power jobs: 31.6% (this is clerkships + law firm placement at firms 100 and larger)
      UNC power jobs: 35%

      Hmm, $200K for a 3.4% advantage? Not loving that.

      So, let’s look at your main concern: placing in DC or Texas.

      Alabama: Texas placement is 8.3%, no DC data (which typically means it is very low). Btw, check this stay with the school to make sure it’s Texas and not Tennessee.
      UNC: DC placement is 8.9%, no Texas data (which typically means it is very low)

      So yes, UNC is placing into DC better than Alabama. But, Alabama seems to do just fine over in Texas, which is an offset. Is that slim DC advantage enough to go for UNC? It unquestionably would not be for me personally. Debt-avoidance is critically important because it gives you more options after school ends, and to maybe take that lower-paying position in DC if you wanted to 🙂

      So, I personally feel this is clearly a win for Alabama, but you are the one making the call. You should look carefully at what $200K or so of debt looks like on a monthly basis since you’ll be on the hook for that with UNC.

      Please let me know if this helps, and what you decide!

      Reply
      • Danny says

        February 2, 2021 at 7:43 pm

        Hey Dave,

        I’m trying to decide between a few schools. I’d like to stay in the south. Preferences would be Nashville, Memphis, Atlanta, Research Triangle, Charlotte, Richmond, and a few others would consider NOLA, Houston, Dallas, San Antonio, DC, FL cities, Little Rock, Jackson, Lexington, Louisville. I’m open to other cities in the South as well but was just thinking of these off the top of my head.
        UTk- full ride
        Ole Miss- full ride
        Tulane- 37.5k scholarship a year
        U of Rich-35k scholarship a year
        Wake- 20k scholarship a year
        W&L- 22k scholarship a year
        W&M- A fellowship, that essentially makes it in-state tuition.
        Emory- 8k scholarship a year
        UNC- full price
        Vanderbilt – waitlisted, but imagine it’ll be full price if admitted.
        Thanks for your time and help! I’m leaning towards a compromise situation, taking Tulane, Wake or one of the VA schools, as they all seem portable to an extent but also much cheaper than Emory. Thanks again!

        Reply
        • Dave Killoran says

          February 4, 2021 at 4:28 pm

          Hi Danny,

          Thanks for the info! However, I need more info to give any thoughts here 🙂 This includes:

          1. Your career aspirations. Knowing your city is a great start, but are you committed to biglaw, public interest, doesn’t matter, etc? Also, how likely are you to stay near the school?

          2. Employment outcomes (%s to various sized firms) for each school.

          3. Scholarship amounts are meaningless for the most part; what you want to put here is COA (full cost of attendance including room and board) since that’s the amount you will have to pay off after law school.

          All the info for #2 and #3 can be found for free at LSTReports.com. If you post that back, I’ll be in a much better position to discuss options. Thanks!

          Reply
          • Danny says

            February 4, 2021 at 8:20 pm

            Ole Miss and UTk= COA= 0 (I have savings for living expenses and some parental help as well).

            Tulane: COA 3 years @ 63k. 69% employment, 24% with clerkship or biglaw.

            Richmond: COA 3 years @ 47k. 69% employment, 10% with clerkship or biglaw.

            Wake: COA 3 years @ 85k. 81% Employment, 24% with clerkship or biglaw.

            W&L: COA 3 years @ 95k. 84% employment, 30% with clerkship or biglaw.

            W&M: COA 3 years @ 110k. 82% employment, 18% with clerkship or biglaw.

            Emory: COA 3 years @ 162k. 71% Employment, 30% with clerkship or biglaw.

            UNC: COA 3 years w/o instate all 3 years @ 144k. W/ in state for 2 and 3L @ 95k. 77% Employment, 28% with clerkship or biglaw.

            Vanderbilt (if taken off the waitlist): COA 3 years @ 180k. 87% Employment 58% with clerkship or biglaw.

            I’m not committed to biglaw. I’d like to either do midlaw work with a more regional firm or government work with the hope of one day being a local judge. I’m not married to location and happy to stay in most of the places where these schools are at. Long term, I would prefer not to be in Atlanta/Houston/Dallas, but not totally opposed to that.
            I could not stay in Lexington, VA after graduating as I would need to be in a bigger city than that.

          • Dave Killoran says

            February 5, 2021 at 12:38 pm

            Hi Danny,

            Thanks for the reply and the update! First, I’m going to put ranks on all your schools and reorder them, in part so other readers can see how the higher ranked schools cost more but then often have much higher stats:

            #18 Vanderbilt (if taken off the waitlist): COA 3 years @ 180k. 87% Employment 58% with clerkship or biglaw.
            #24 Emory: COA 3 years @ 162k. 71% Employment, 30% with clerkship or biglaw.
            #27 UNC: COA 3 years w/o instate all 3 years @ 144k. W/ in state for 2 and 3L @ 95k. 77% Employment, 28% with clerkship or biglaw.
            #31 W&L: COA 3 years @ 95k. 84% employment, 30% with clerkship or biglaw.
            #31 W&M: COA 3 years @ 110k. 82% employment, 18% with clerkship or biglaw.
            #42 Wake: COA 3 years @ 85k. 81% Employment, 24% with clerkship or biglaw.
            #54 Richmond: COA 3 years @ 47k. 69% employment, 10% with clerkship or biglaw.
            #54 Tulane: COA 3 years @ 63k. 69% employment, 24% with clerkship or biglaw.
            #59 UTk= COA= 0. 81% employment, 15% with clerkship or biglaw.
            #111 Ole Miss= COA= 0. 61% employment, 12.5% with clerkship or biglaw.

            I add the rankings because the law is a rankings-oriented field, and it tends to be very hierarchical (which is one reason why higher-ranked school often have better employment stats). Second, your range of cities in the south is so broad that it seems to me there’s positives with all these schools, hence I’m not using it as a separator in these early stages. With that said, some opinions on paring down this list, which should be your first step:

            * UNC or W&L knock out Emory. Both UNC and W&L are cheaper with better overall employment numbers. I love Emory and Atlanta but you aren’t so much an Atlanta fan, and on the numbers UNC/W&L is a far better deal given what they offered you.
            * And then W&L knocks out UNC. It’s the same price (with in-state), but again with better numbers and a higher profile in the legal field. Plus, as a Duke grad, I always enjoy knocking UNC off the list 🙂
            * I also W&L see knocking out W&M. It’s cheaper, and again with better numbers.
            * W&L stays on a roll and knocks out Wake. For 10K more you get a higher profile degree again with better numbers.
            * Tennessee knocks out Ole Miss. I love Ole Miss as a school and a place to have fun, but Tennessee has them beat across the board on the numbers.
            * Tennessee also knocks out Richmond. Tenn is far cheaper and has better overall numbers; I can live with the overall lower ranking since it’s not that dissimilar and law firms are less rankings conscious in this range of schools.

            Re-assessing, you are now looking at:

            #18 Vanderbilt (if taken off the waitlist): COA 3 years @ 180k. 87% Employment 58% with clerkship or biglaw.
            #31 W&L: COA 3 years @ 95k. 84% employment, 30% with clerkship or biglaw.
            #54 Tulane: COA 3 years @ 63k. 69% employment, 24% with clerkship or biglaw.
            #59 UTk= COA= 0. 81% employment, 15% with clerkship or biglaw.

            This is far more manageable list, and each school has a uniqueness that isn’t as easily compared as the initial list. From there I’d say:

            #18 Vanderbilt: This is easily the most expensive school on the list, and the place to go if you want a legal career that is in biglaw or even academia. But you pay a price for it, and I’m not sure you’re that committed at this point.
            #31 W&L: This is kind of your second choice “top school” from the list. Not quite the cachet of Vandy, but also about half the price. Under $100K in debt is still a lot, but far less than what many others walk out with. So, if portability is a top priority, then you’re going to have to pay for it to some extent. W&L is a solid choice here for what it costs you.
            #54 Tulane: There’s a very strong argument that Tenn knocks out Tulane. I have serious reservations about Tulane’s low employment figures, and their major position placement isn’t that much better than Tenn’s yet they are $63K more. I left them in because you mentioned them first, but this seems a high price to pay when Tennessee is free. From another angle, there’s an argument that W&L knocks them out too–only $32K more with a solid improvement in numbers. New Orleans is a fantastic city, but is it worth this?
            #59 UTk: This is by far the safest choice. Their numbers are solid, everyone’s heard of Tennessee, and it’s debt free. Go here and your career path can go in any direction you choose, with no monetary limitations.

            Hopefully, that gives you something to think about. For everyone else reading, the above analysis is only on the numbers, and I’m aware that law school and the law school experience is far more than that. Any of the schools I so easily knocked out might be the best spot for Danny. But, getting an advanced degree is very often about money and opportunities. If you are in a similar situation and trying to make decision, you can make these same kinds of analyses and comparisons. It’s tough, but remember that every dollar of debt you take on is a dollar plus interest you have to pay back. The more debt you have, the fewer choices that will be in your hands down the line as far as jobs you can take.

            Thanks!

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