Update! We have two podcasts around this article: Episode 5 and Episode 53 of the PowerScore LSAT PodCast.
I wrote a blog titled, A Law Degree Is Worth over $1 Million. Can You Get It for Free? Predictably, we received several questions from former students who have the opportunity to attend law school on a full-ride scholarship. If you think their decision is a no-brainer, think again. Oftentimes, the choice is between attending a higher-ranked school at sticker price vs. a lower-ranked school for free or discounted. Before you get jealous, realize that these students found themselves in this enviable position because they worked hard for it. They excelled in college, on their applications, and perhaps most importantly—on their LSAT scores.
The Choice
For some, the decision is brutally simple. You’ll go to the highest-ranked law school you can get into, regardless of cost. There’s nothing wrong with that per se, assuming you aren’t motivated by prestige alone (you can’t eat prestige). If your goal is to work at a big law firm, clerk for a feeder judge, enter academia, or do public interest for the DOJ or another highly selective organization, a strong case can be made for choosing a top-14 law school over any lower-ranked school, even with money.
Some law firms are extremely selective in their recruitment practices. If you absolutely must work at Wachtell, you need to go to the right school. Furthermore, if you aren’t sure where you’d like to practice after graduation, a national school makes more sense. As the name implies, such a school will not restrict your employment opportunities to a particular city or region.
Last, but not least, many of the top law schools have generous loan forgiveness programs, which means that you don’t have to sell your soul take a six-figure job in order to repay your student debt. Generally, the better the law school, the better the loan forgiveness program (though you should still read the fine print). Of course, having no debt still beats having to deal with a loan repayment program.
In Terms of Grades…
From a purely economic perspective, the cost of attending a top law school is what you pay to mitigate risk. You only have a 1-in-10 chance of being in the top-10% of your 1L class (it sucks, I know). But, the better the school, the less important that is. Harvard, Yale, and Stanford don’t even have grades. While it is still possible to determine (roughly) where someone stands relative to his or her peers, such distinctions are only meaningful for a minority of law firms and judges.
The average student at Harvard Law can easily get a callback from a BIGLAW firm in NYC. To be competitive for the same job coming out of Cornell, our hypothetical 1L should ideally have above-median grades. If he or she is a 1L at Fordham, top-30% seems to be the magic number. Broadly speaking, the further down the law school pecking order you get, the better your grades need to be in order to provide you with the same caliber of employment opportunities (assuming said opportunities even exist at the lower-tier schools).
Making the Decision
So, when does it make sense to take the money and run? It’s a deeply personal decision that depends on several factors. How risk-averse are you? Where would you like to practice after graduation? What do you want to do with your law degree? What’s your attitude toward debt in general? Among many others.
Rationally speaking, it’s worth taking the money at a lower ranked school when the anticipated benefit of attending such a school outweighs the opportunity cost of not attending it. Let’s say you’re making a choice between Fancy Law School (higher ranked, no money) and Bargain Law School (lower ranked, with money). I’d take the money and run if:
- Both are national (top-14) law schools.
- You don’t have a compelling personal reason for attending Fancy Law School, and received one of the following full scholarships at the Bargain school.
- Levy at Penn Law
- Dillard at UVA
- Root-Tilden-Kern at NYU
- A caveat: if Fancy Law School is either Harvard or Yale and you plan on pursuing an academic career. No amount of money elsewhere can compensate for the lost opportunity should you reject their offer.
- Fancy Law School is a lower-ranked national school, whereas Bargain Law School is a highly regarded regional school (Fordham, BU, BC, GW, etc.). Take the money and run if:
- You got a full ride at your Bargain option.
- You would be happy to practice in the region where the Bargain school is located.
- Both are top-50 law schools in the same region, Fancy Law School is a highly regarded regional school, whereas Bargain Law School is a slightly lower ranked school offering a scholarship worth at least 50% their annual tuition. Make sure to check the terms and conditions for renewing your scholarship and compare the relative merits of both schools using independent sources, such as:
- Both are top-50 schools but in different regions, and you have no preference for the Fancy Law School region over the Bargain Law School region. However, if the region in which Bargain Law School is located is less desirable than the alternative, then you need to think carefully about whether the trade-off is really worth it, as the Bargain Law School region is likely where you’ll end up practicing after graduation.
- Many would argue that no school outside the top-50 is worth paying sticker price for. Only go to a Tier-2/3 school if you can do it at a deep discount, ideally for free.
It’s worth emphasizing that this is a personal choice. With that said, take the advice above with a grain of salt. At the very least, it should provide a starting point for your decision-making process.
Asking Questions
We have been asked hundreds of questions about specific law school decisions, and below this post are those questions and our answers. If you would like to ask us about a specific school choice, please provide the following information for each school in the mix:
- School Name (USNews Ranking) – Scholarship Amount – Total Cost of Attendance
- Pros/cons of the school in your eyes, any related factors in the decision
- Your career aspirations
Arabella says
Hi Dave! First, I just wanted to say I took a Powerscore course while studying for the LSAT and loved it! Thank you for all that you do! Regarding my acceptances, I was accepted to Hofstra, NYLS and Pace all with conditional scholarships. My top choice was Rutgers, but I was unfortunately just under their median LSAT and rejected. I’m so unsure of which school I should choose – I have been hearing a lot about NYLS’ predatory conditional scholarship practices which makes me wary and as far as Pace, I don’t want to work in environmental law post graduation. In discussing with a current Pace student, she said she felt that the electives were environmental heavy. Lastly, Pace and NYLS are the best for me location wise, but I know that Hofstra has the best reputation. Thank you in advance for your help!
Dave Killoran says
Hi Arabella,
Congratulations on the acceptances! To provide any specific help here, I need to know your total Cost of Attendance (COA). And, do you have any specific career goals aside from not wanting to be environmental law?
Thanks!
Madison says
Hello Dave!
I am desperately in need of some advice, as I am torn between the classic scholarship vs. prestige decision. I was admitted it UCI with a 90k scholarship over 3 years. It is contingent on maintaining a 2.5 GPA. My other option is Pepperdine, currently ranked 47 and they have offered me the Dean’s Merit Scholarship of 165k over the 3 years, again contingent that I maintain a 2.8 GPA. Pepperdine is currently ranked 47th and UCI is ranked 27th. I’m on the waitlist at UCLA, so where I am now these are my top contenders and my best options 🙂 COA is about the same at these two schools, so by my estimates, I would have about 120,000 in debt from UCI but only 42,000 from Pepperdine. Biglaw was not necessarily a goal of mine when embarking on the law school journey, but I am not averse to entering Biglaw for a few years to pay off my debt if I took the UCI route.
I guess my question is what most people have been asking on this thread! Is the prestige of UCI valuable enough to warrant the extra 78,000 in debt?
Thank you Dave! 🙂
Dave Killoran says
Hi Madison,
Thanks for the message and sorry for the delayed reply–I missed this somehow! This is a good question, and it’s nice to be able to perfectly quantify the difference between these two schools: $78K. UCI is a relatively new school, and a fast riser at that, so determining the “prestige” aspect here can be more challenging than at a more “established” school. So, let’s turn to the numbers and see what we get: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/irvine/pepperdine.
Just on the surface, you begin to see that UCI has better “prestige” stats than Pepperdine:
Fed Clerkships: 2.8% vs 1.7%
All Clerkships: 7.1% vs 6.2%
National Firms: 24.1% vs 6.7%
The National firms placement is probably the most important there because the difference is fairly stark: 1 out of every 4 UCI grads go into big firms; at Pepperdine it’s 1 out of 15. 1 out of 4 is no lock but it’s far better than 1 out of 15, and that’s what your money is buying you here.
My lean here would be UCI since you’ll have greater portability in coming years adn better options out of the gate, but I’m cognizant that $78K is a significant additional debt sum. So, now you have to weigh that cost vs the extra benefit.
Good luck!
Jim says
Hi Dave,
I have been stuck for some time now on a decision between a few NY based law schools.
I was admitted to Fordham (about 300k), which is the highest ranked school I could attend anywhere. However, I was also given full scholarships at St.Johns and Brooklyn Law, in addition to approximately a third of tuition at Cardozo (3 year total of 115k).
I will be taking out loans for the full cost of whatever school I attend, in addition to living expenses. For someone who has never been in debt before, I am pretty concerned about having that financial obligation limit my career options to only the highest paying/highest pressure jobs.
I foresee two potential undesirable scenarios with regard to either taking the money or the prestige:
1) If I take the money and run, I will obviously have to work my tail off to put myself in the same conversation as a Fordham grad, not to mention Columbia, NYU, and the other NY school grads. If I fail to place in the top 10 or 25 percent of my class, where does that leave me in terms of career options in a highly competitive job market?
2) If I attend Fordham at sticker price, I am sure I will have more connections and job advantages coming out, but the question is whether I want to work in Big Law or not. What happens if I leave Fordham after three years with 300k in debt, and don’t want to work a Big Law job? Or what if I don’t rank well in my class, and don’t even have the option to work a Big Law job that I might need to pay off that debt?
Frankly, this position is made more difficult by my not knowing what exactly what I want to do with my law degree. I’d like to work towards more than just my own bottom line in my career, and perhaps do something public interest oriented. At the same time, I have worked jobs where I am just scraping by, and it is not a fun place to be.
I understand this is a pretty subjective choice, but any additional insight or info would be really helpful.
Dave Killoran says
Hi Jim,
Thanks for the message! This is indeed another classic money vs prestige decision so let’s look at it. With question #1, that changes every year, and some years are just fine and others it’s a tough ride. There’s just no way to know in advance, so if you’re like me, I always assume it will be on the tougher side when you come out. that way, everything else is a bonus.
With #2, you have to look at the numbers: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/fordham/cardozo. employment scores are very similar, but inside those numbers you can see Fordham has advantages in hiring at national firms (biglaw!) among others. That advantage (47.7% vs 17.7%) is what costs you roughly $185K more according to your estimates. Is that worth it? I’m not sure I’d think it was worth that much, but I’m not in your shoes.
Speaking of which, I’m not sure you have a solid feel/desire to go biglaw anyway given your comment that “but the question is whether I want to work in Big Law or not.” The best thing I can say here is that’s quite a bit to pay for something that you aren’t at all sure about. Your general uncertainty would strongly suggest avoiding massive debt; that frees you up to do the greatest number of things, all at the cost of have a lessened shot at biglaw (which may not be your thing anyway).
I hope that helps. thanks and let me know what you decide, I’d love to know!
Zachery Engsberg says
Hello, I am a current 1L attending Marquette law school. I am in an unconventional situation. I attended Marquette as an undergraduate student for a major in biomedical sciences and a minor in philosophy. I was also accepted into a pre-law scholar program which allows a student, if they finish the requirements for their given major by his/her third year of undergraduate studies, to apply to attend Marquette Law for his/her fourth year to finish the credit requirements for his/her undergraduate degree while concurrently fulfilling credit as a 1L student at Marquette Law. I completed the requirements for my major and minor in the given three years with a 3.438 GPA and an LSAT score of 159. I don’t dislike Marquette Law school. It is a highly respected school in the region, and if I graduate here I wouldn’t need to take the BAR to practice in Wisconsin if that is what I want to do. Tuition for attendance here is $48,980 and my scholarship looks to be $23,000. After I graduate and complete my 1L year I am considering transferring to a different law school. I have no specific desire to stay in Milwaukee long term in my life, and if I can find a law school that is a better fit for my goals in a different region of the country I think it is something worth hard consideration. The primary school that has caught my interest is Brooklyn Law School. First of all, Marquette is ranked 102 and Brooklyn is ranked 83. With my undergraduate background in medical sciences I want to attend a school that is well ranked in Health Law. Brooklyn upon my research is well ranked, and I can’t find where Marquette ranks in that category. Brooklyn also appears to offer a wider breadth of classes relavent to my interest in health law than Marquette. Brooklyn tuition is $62,297 and by the info on their site they do consider transfer students for partial scholarship upon application. In addition to entering a new living environment at a better ranked school, my primary interest outside of developing skills as a law student is developing skills in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I have a passion for the sport, and believe developing the skills to earn a black belt benefit me by providing fitness, confidence in self defense, and ability to adapt to dynamic problem solving situations. The best school to learn at the moment is Renzo Gracie Academy in New York. The primary teacher there practices a systematic approach to the sport and a philosophy that resonates with my own. I can learn and practice the sport at a gym anywhere, but the best place I can think of to improve my skills as sharply and quickly as possible would be there. Developing skills and experience during my 2L and 3L years to find a suitable niche for my skillset in the field of health law, and developing my skills as a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu practitioner at the one of the best places in the world at the same time definitely appeals to me. However, the living expenses of attending Brooklyn would certainly be higher than in Milwaukee. This may be partially offset if a get a good summer associate position and find a decent paying part time job, but it certainly appears I’ll incur more debt finishing my degree in Brooklyn. I do have passion for serving the public good and that getting my law degree will come with skills I want to have, but I don’t consider myself someone who has an interest in working 50 hour work weeks with a firm practicing something I don’t have passion for. I want to be able to work 4 days a week in whatever legal/medical niche I find my skillset applicable for, and spend the rest of my time pursuing my interests and passions for Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, cooking, and promoting a healthy and community involved lifestyle. With these factors in mind I find it difficult to weigh my options and get a good idea of the consequences of either choice. Thanks for any advice!
Dave Killoran says
Hi Zachery,
This is an unusual question, in part because your motivation seems to be based on lifestyle factors, not academic ones. That’s not the norm, mainly because most law students don’t have time for an outside interest/hobby that takes up a lot of time.
That aside, my first reaction is that we typically advise people that when transferring, especially if you will be paying more, try to make a greater leap than from 102 to 83. To pay more for that—especially when nationally a lot of people have at least heard the Marquette name—is hard for me to swallow.
I’d also be very wary of niche rankings as being meaningful. Sure, NYU is well known for tax law and that’s a big plus, but they are near the top of the heap as far as general reputation. I don’t know of anyone really trumpeting Brooklyn as a health law powerhouse, and so I’d be wary of making a distinction here when I’m not certain there’s a big one.
So, for me, this decision comes down to: paying a fair bit more for a largely lateral move in order to get better Jiu Jitsu training access. If that extra cost is worth it to you, go for it! You want to be happy and that will help your grades most likely if you are happier. But look carefully at those costs since you are paying all that—plus those training fees—for that academy.
Best of luck!
Randy says
Hey Dave,
I am just preparing my applications now, and hope to score at/over a 175 LSAT and ask for fee waivers, but I am wondering if it even matters. I have more than 100k of undergrad and grad school debt. I am committed to paying as little as possible for law school. Ideally a full ride but that might be negotiable based on ranking. I also really want to go to a school with a great program which for me means strong international focus/international law programs/clinics and a strong clinical program in general. I am also prioritizing low cost of living, though again have made an exception for Northwestern and Chicago.
As a supersplitter with an LSAT presumably above 99th percentile but a uGPA around 2.5 would international work experience and a grad GPA of 3.9ish be enough to incline any of my T14 schools to spend a 75%-full scholarship on me or should I just concentrate outside of T14? My top choices in a perfect world are Duke, UVA, Northwestern, Chicago, Michigan, Texas, Wash U, and only with major scholarship: Georgetown for context. Beyond that I would likely delay a cycle but have Emory, Penn, Vanderbilt, hometown UNC, Minn, ND, W&L, W&M, ASU, BU, and Georgia as interesting schools. I hope to work in international law, ideally human/civil rights and have no interest in BigLaw. Longterm I would prefer a mid-sized or international city to live in.
Could major scholarships be on the table at T14 or is it not worth stressing over? Given that I want to work internationally would I be better off taking my likely full/near full ride at Wash U over smaller scholarships at the T14? How would your answer change at 0, 1/3, 1/2, 3/4 scholarship at T14?
I do not know if you have good answers for these questions, I just have been feeling like my Duke/NU dreams are not realistic lately and, given there is nothing I can do about a 10 year old undergrad GPA, am wondering if it even matters if I apply aside from maybe helping to negotiate more aid at Wash U.
Dave Killoran says
Hi Randy,
Thanks for the message. I can provide some insight, but candidates who come in with numbers like yours are rather rare, so there’s not a whole lot of data on acceptance rates.
The first, and most important, point here is that your undergrad GPA is the controlling one, to the extent that your grad GPA is just a footnote. Grad GPA is not reported to the ABA, and there’s a sense among adcomms that grad GPAs are routinely inflated. It’s are a plus, but it will in no way offset your undergrad GPA. That’s the one that gets reported, and it is how the law schools will view and rate you 🙁
This means that almost immediately your chances for admission in the T14 plummet significantly, and I’m sorry to be the one to deliver that news. And with acceptances being rather rare with that GPA, you can imagine the chances for any scholarship money at a T14 are extremely low. So, if I were in your shoes I’d not spend a whole lot of time on the T14.
As for schools outside the T14, I think the range of outcomes/financial offers right now is far too big to make projections. I’m not certain at all that you’d be looking at big scholarships at every school you mentioned however. At WashU, for example, you have a reasonable chance at an admit but it’s not a lock by any means, and when that occurs the scholarships they offer are affected in a downward manner. And so it will more likely be a situation where you make final decisions once you have all the numbers in front of you vs speculating now when we have very few ideas how your unique numerical combination will play out 🙂
I personally hate the policy on old GPAs being controlling still, but that’s the way it’s been for decades in this field. So, my best advice is to take it step by step: get that high LSAT score first–this is critically important for you! Then apply and see what happens, and so on. You’ll know a lot more in a few months and that will narrow the likely outcomes and make it easier to discuss 🙂
Thanks!
Jake says
Hi! I’m currently a couple days from making a final call. It’s weird timing, as classes start next week at both schools, but the circumstances are kind of unique. I am currently choosing between Harvard and Georgetown. I am using the GI Bill, so there is no money issue here. But here’s the lay of the land as I see it:
GEORGETOWN:
– Marginal cost (GI Bill + scholarship covers about 99% of cost)
– I’ve been admitted to Georgetown’s evening program, which means I will be able to stay in the Navy and keep both my commission and my full salary while I’m in law school. The downside is that working and school at the same time will be a lot. The upside is that living expenses are covered, and I’ll finish law school with enough saved to buy a house. Also, while I am not a Navy “lifer,” I do like it, and would miss it if I left just yet.
– Love DC. Been stationed here before. Enjoy the city, though it has started to feel a bit stale.
– Like the idea of going to school with other working professionals. I’m in my early 30s, so seems like we may have more in common.
– Georgetown has a broader range of courses in an area I’m super passionate about (National Security Law)
HARVARD
– The prestige is tempting. In a big way.
– I’m interested in clerking and I’m interested in academia (though I’m not married to either of these, and have very little need to clerk for the Supreme Court or teach at a prestigious law school. Clerking at a district court or teaching in a place with a decent LGBT community is just fine).
– The network. I have some long term career goals that I think a network like Harvard’s could help me achieve in a way that I’m not sure a lower ranked school’s could.
– The idea of being able to focus on myself and school for a bit is a positive. Taking work out of the equation might leave a little time to…ya know…date.
– The GI Bill + Yellow Ribbon covers everything, but the ~$29k a year housing stipend from the GI Bill allows me to just scrape by vs the ~105k salary I’d keep at Georgetown. Wouldn’t be doing a lot of saving at Harvard (which would follow separating from the Navy ie. a pension)
– Living in Boston/Cambridge is very appealing. I really like New England and would like to try living somewhere new.
PERSONAL GOALS:
– I am pretty flexible, and have a lot of confidence that I can get myself where I need to go regardless of where I go to school. But I’m mindful that I may discover some as-of-yet unknown passion that is better served by a better network or more prestigious name.
– Very interested in working in policy in DC, especially in National Security or Education policy; OR moving home to North Carolina to practice (child advocacy or maybe trying to work for the state or the US Attorney’s Office). Pretty broad interests. Long term (10-15 years down the road) I definitely want to be in NC, but how long it takes to get there is flexible.
– Not opposed to some detours along the way to clerk or live in a new city (NYC, LA, etc…)
Currently leaning towards Georgetown, but definitely looking for someone to sanity check this call. Thanks!
Dave Killoran says
Hi Jake,
Thanks for the message! Great rundown of your situation as well, so thanks very much for that 🙂
I think your current lean to Georgetown is entirely reasonable and defensible. There’s nothing that Harvard gives you in a concrete way that outweighs what you know you would get at Georgetown. The benefits of Harvard here are a step up in prestige and job outcomes (and that’s nice, but it’s not as if Gtown is some slacker school) vs the hard cash benefit of keeping a job you like and still receiving your salary in a town you like and where you’d love to practice (not to mention already being settled there, so no mad dash up to Cambridge). If you were committed to academia or federal clerking, I’d say Harvard would better serve you, but even then Georgetown is not terrible. So, for me, I think you are sane and thinking in a level way 🙂
Congrats on the great acceptances and best of luck in law school!
Sam says
Hi Dave,
I am currently deciding between:
American (120K scholarship I didn’t negotiate, big mistake)
BC (54K scholarship).
American recently discounted their tuition 10 percent due to COVID and BC did not.
So COA at AU (assuming 10 percent discount goes for this year) is : 13K + 19K + 19K = 51K in tuition
and COA at BC is : 39K + 39K + 39K = 118K in tuition
Let’s assume living expenses are the same.
COA difference is about 70K over 3 years.
The goal is BL on the east coast. I’ve been a paralegal at a V30 in DC for the past year and hope to return, but won’t be crushed if that doesn’t happen. Considering OCI is only 11-12 months away, I should be okay if I go to BC and keep in contact right?
I would love to hear what you think!
-Sam
Dave Killoran says
Hi Sam,
Thanks for the message! So, BC for $70K more total is the overall cost breakdown, and I’d agree that’s the better choice here for your goals 🙂 Their placement into DC isn’t huge, but I’d suspect that’s more a product of being so close to Boston and NYC and having those be more attractive to grads relatively speaking. Either way, a year away isn’t a big deal, and if you keep your connections alive, you’ll be just fine in my opinion. So, I’d say go for it with a clear conscience!
Thanks and best of luck to you!
Noah says
Hey Dave,
I am currently stuck in a situation that thankfully is a good problem but one that I am looking for advice on. I have committed to New York Law School on a $40,000/year scholarship with the conditions that I stay in the top 50% of my class. I just found out today that I have been accepted off of the waitlist at Yeshiva University (Cardozo) Law and given an unconditional $20,000/year scholarship.
After doing all of the relevant research, Cardozo is ranked 53 nationally, with a bar passage rate of 85%, and a median starting (private sector) salary of $70k/year. The full time tuition for Cardozo is $62,408/year, and with my scholarship will result in a total attendance cost of $42,408/year. NYLS is ranked 129 nationally, with a bar passage rate of 59%, and a median starting (private sector) salary of $100k/year. The full time tuition for NYLS is $54,382/year, and with my scholarship will result in a total attendance cost of $14,382/year.
I attended the University of Maryland and graduated with a 3.7 GPA and degrees in Criminology/criminal justice, and Communications. Based on my background, I am aspiring to practice as an attorney and potentially looking litigation, criminal law, personal injury/medical malpractice law, and various other concentrations. I have yet to decide whether I am looking to work in a big law firm or a medium/small firm. Regardless, I am looking for the best option to keep all of my doors open and give me the best chance of finding a good job with a good salary.
As you can see, there is a drastic difference in total cost of attendance, and starting salary leaning towards NYLS. There is also a drastic difference in ranking, bar passage rate, and reputation, leaning towards Cardozo. Based on my past performance, I know that I will be able to work hard and succeed in law school, regardless of the school I attend. Based on my LSAT score and college GPA, I definitely feel that I will be able to perform closer to the top of my class at NYLS.
Any thoughts or recommendations that you have would be greatly appreciated!
Dave Killoran says
Hi Noah,
Thanks for the message! This is an interesting one. A few thoughts:
• I’m not a big fan of conditional scholarships. No matter how much faith you have in yourself, law school is unlike any learning you’ve done before. And there’s also no way to predict what might happen in life, such as if you should fall ill, etc. Or, you know, a pandemic 🙂
• I’m skeptical of the NYLS private placement salary number. As in, very suspicious. Is it a case of lies, damn lies, and statistics? Because if only a handful of their top students get private jobs, that would make the salary number there look much better than reality. I say this because in most areas NYLS trails Cardozo, especially in big firm placement. So, I’d do more research there if you can.
• NYLS has an attrition rate that is fairly substantial: 6.9% of 1Ls. To me that’s always a bad sign, and I flag it to you so you are aware. One out of every fourteen students in your class are gone at the end of the year. By comparison, Cardozo’s rate is 1.4%.
The above three points aside, you are looking at NYLS at $42K if things go reasonably well vs Cardozo at three times that, or $127K. Here’s where you need to try to narrow your interests, because you gave a really broad rundown of options: “Based on my background, I am aspiring to practice as an attorney and potentially looking litigation, criminal law, personal injury/medical malpractice law, and various other concentrations. I have yet to decide whether I am looking to work in a big law firm or a medium/small firm.” For some of those, NYLS is perfect, but for others, it’s Cardozo. So, I would suggest sitting down for a bit and doing some research, talk to some attorneys, and generally see if you can make the window of choice a bit less than it is currently.
I can see an argument for both options, so I think you need to look inside your aspirations for the final choice. Let your career goals be the guide here!
Thanks!
Noah says
Hey Dave,
Thank you so much for the insightful and helpful information! I was able to negotiate slightly with Cardozo and they raised my scholarship by $6,000 per year. Based on your information and discussing with a few others, I came to the decision to accept my Cardozo seat for the Fall. I felt that it would open more doors for me and allow me to really explore all of the potential avenues of law that I may want to practice. Thank you again for all of your help!
Dave Killoran says
Hi Noah,
That’s great–congratulations! I think you’ve made an excellent choice:)
Good luck!
James says
Dave,
Thanks a bunch for all your advice, it really helps! I actually just got offered a 25k/yr scholarship to UNC today, so that makes the decision a little tougher. While 25k/yr doesn’t cover out-of-state tuition, UNC has told me that I can claim residency status as a 2L and 3L as long as I moved to Chapel Hill before orientation and stayed for 365 days. Therefore, the scholarship would cover all of tuition for my 2L and 3L years. My family is prepared to cover all the general living expenses wherever I go, so tuition is the primary concern in this monetary dilemma. I’d like to get out of the MS/AL area as I’ve lived in Birmingham most of my life, so the Raleigh area is very attractive to me. Does the scholarship change your perspective on the situation?
P.S. Still on the waitlist for Duke so maybe you can make a call for me 😉 kidding of course
Dave Killoran says
Hey James,
Thanks for the reply! So, now we’re down to UNC for about $40K total vs Alabama on full ride? At this point, I think you make the call that you feel best about, which I’d say is UNC based on everything you’ve said. You’d have a greater portability in DC with that degree, and the cost is far more manageable than before. I’d say you’re good to get out of Alabama 🙂
Side note: Raleigh is pretty far away from Carolina (it’s about 30 miles away iirc), but Chapel Hill is awesome and a great small town. The Triangle in general is cool so I’m sure you’ll enjoy all parts of it.
Have fun and work hard!
James says
Hi! I’m currently in between two law schools for the start of the fall semester and I have to make my decision within a week. I studied chemical engineering in undergrad, and plan to pursue a career in patent law. The two schools I’m deciding between are the University of Alabama and UNC Chapel Hill. I was offered a full-tuition scholarship to Alabama and no $ is being offered from UNC right now.
While my initial impression is to obviously take the scholarship to UA and be debt-free, I live in Birmingham and would like to practice law in the D.C. area or Texas after law school so I feel as if studying in Alabama will place me back in Birmingham or Atlanta. UNC’s ranking this year is slightly higher than UA; however, I’m not sure if the reputations follow suit. Is the reputation at UNC historically higher than UA, or is UA a better option for national job placement over UNC?
Thank you so much for your time and consideration during this unpredictable time.
Dave Killoran says
Hi James,
As a Duke grad, this is an easy one for me: avoid UNC 🙂
Ok, I’m just kidding. I’m actually a big fan of UNC in general and have positive feelings towards their law school. That said, what you have here is:
Alabama, ranked #31, for basically free
UNC, ranked #27, for around $200K over three years
Right away I’m going to tell you that it’s going to be quite hard to justify paying $200K for Carolina, but let’s look at the jobs and see what you are “buying” with going there at that cost.
LST’s comparison:
https://www.lstreports.com/compare/unc/alabama/
Alabama power jobs: 31.6% (this is clerkships + law firm placement at firms 100 and larger)
UNC power jobs: 35%
Hmm, $200K for a 3.4% advantage? Not loving that.
So, let’s look at your main concern: placing in DC or Texas.
Alabama: Texas placement is 8.3%, no DC data (which typically means it is very low). Btw, check this stay with the school to make sure it’s Texas and not Tennessee.
UNC: DC placement is 8.9%, no Texas data (which typically means it is very low)
So yes, UNC is placing into DC better than Alabama. But, Alabama seems to do just fine over in Texas, which is an offset. Is that slim DC advantage enough to go for UNC? It unquestionably would not be for me personally. Debt-avoidance is critically important because it gives you more options after school ends, and to maybe take that lower-paying position in DC if you wanted to 🙂
So, I personally feel this is clearly a win for Alabama, but you are the one making the call. You should look carefully at what $200K or so of debt looks like on a monthly basis since you’ll be on the hook for that with UNC.
Please let me know if this helps, and what you decide!
Danny says
Hey Dave,
I’m trying to decide between a few schools. I’d like to stay in the south. Preferences would be Nashville, Memphis, Atlanta, Research Triangle, Charlotte, Richmond, and a few others would consider NOLA, Houston, Dallas, San Antonio, DC, FL cities, Little Rock, Jackson, Lexington, Louisville. I’m open to other cities in the South as well but was just thinking of these off the top of my head.
UTk- full ride
Ole Miss- full ride
Tulane- 37.5k scholarship a year
U of Rich-35k scholarship a year
Wake- 20k scholarship a year
W&L- 22k scholarship a year
W&M- A fellowship, that essentially makes it in-state tuition.
Emory- 8k scholarship a year
UNC- full price
Vanderbilt – waitlisted, but imagine it’ll be full price if admitted.
Thanks for your time and help! I’m leaning towards a compromise situation, taking Tulane, Wake or one of the VA schools, as they all seem portable to an extent but also much cheaper than Emory. Thanks again!
Dave Killoran says
Hi Danny,
Thanks for the info! However, I need more info to give any thoughts here 🙂 This includes:
1. Your career aspirations. Knowing your city is a great start, but are you committed to biglaw, public interest, doesn’t matter, etc? Also, how likely are you to stay near the school?
2. Employment outcomes (%s to various sized firms) for each school.
3. Scholarship amounts are meaningless for the most part; what you want to put here is COA (full cost of attendance including room and board) since that’s the amount you will have to pay off after law school.
All the info for #2 and #3 can be found for free at LSTReports.com. If you post that back, I’ll be in a much better position to discuss options. Thanks!
Danny says
Ole Miss and UTk= COA= 0 (I have savings for living expenses and some parental help as well).
Tulane: COA 3 years @ 63k. 69% employment, 24% with clerkship or biglaw.
Richmond: COA 3 years @ 47k. 69% employment, 10% with clerkship or biglaw.
Wake: COA 3 years @ 85k. 81% Employment, 24% with clerkship or biglaw.
W&L: COA 3 years @ 95k. 84% employment, 30% with clerkship or biglaw.
W&M: COA 3 years @ 110k. 82% employment, 18% with clerkship or biglaw.
Emory: COA 3 years @ 162k. 71% Employment, 30% with clerkship or biglaw.
UNC: COA 3 years w/o instate all 3 years @ 144k. W/ in state for 2 and 3L @ 95k. 77% Employment, 28% with clerkship or biglaw.
Vanderbilt (if taken off the waitlist): COA 3 years @ 180k. 87% Employment 58% with clerkship or biglaw.
I’m not committed to biglaw. I’d like to either do midlaw work with a more regional firm or government work with the hope of one day being a local judge. I’m not married to location and happy to stay in most of the places where these schools are at. Long term, I would prefer not to be in Atlanta/Houston/Dallas, but not totally opposed to that.
I could not stay in Lexington, VA after graduating as I would need to be in a bigger city than that.
Dave Killoran says
Hi Danny,
Thanks for the reply and the update! First, I’m going to put ranks on all your schools and reorder them, in part so other readers can see how the higher ranked schools cost more but then often have much higher stats:
#18 Vanderbilt (if taken off the waitlist): COA 3 years @ 180k. 87% Employment 58% with clerkship or biglaw.
#24 Emory: COA 3 years @ 162k. 71% Employment, 30% with clerkship or biglaw.
#27 UNC: COA 3 years w/o instate all 3 years @ 144k. W/ in state for 2 and 3L @ 95k. 77% Employment, 28% with clerkship or biglaw.
#31 W&L: COA 3 years @ 95k. 84% employment, 30% with clerkship or biglaw.
#31 W&M: COA 3 years @ 110k. 82% employment, 18% with clerkship or biglaw.
#42 Wake: COA 3 years @ 85k. 81% Employment, 24% with clerkship or biglaw.
#54 Richmond: COA 3 years @ 47k. 69% employment, 10% with clerkship or biglaw.
#54 Tulane: COA 3 years @ 63k. 69% employment, 24% with clerkship or biglaw.
#59 UTk= COA= 0. 81% employment, 15% with clerkship or biglaw.
#111 Ole Miss= COA= 0. 61% employment, 12.5% with clerkship or biglaw.
I add the rankings because the law is a rankings-oriented field, and it tends to be very hierarchical (which is one reason why higher-ranked school often have better employment stats). Second, your range of cities in the south is so broad that it seems to me there’s positives with all these schools, hence I’m not using it as a separator in these early stages. With that said, some opinions on paring down this list, which should be your first step:
* UNC or W&L knock out Emory. Both UNC and W&L are cheaper with better overall employment numbers. I love Emory and Atlanta but you aren’t so much an Atlanta fan, and on the numbers UNC/W&L is a far better deal given what they offered you.
* And then W&L knocks out UNC. It’s the same price (with in-state), but again with better numbers and a higher profile in the legal field. Plus, as a Duke grad, I always enjoy knocking UNC off the list 🙂
* I also W&L see knocking out W&M. It’s cheaper, and again with better numbers.
* W&L stays on a roll and knocks out Wake. For 10K more you get a higher profile degree again with better numbers.
* Tennessee knocks out Ole Miss. I love Ole Miss as a school and a place to have fun, but Tennessee has them beat across the board on the numbers.
* Tennessee also knocks out Richmond. Tenn is far cheaper and has better overall numbers; I can live with the overall lower ranking since it’s not that dissimilar and law firms are less rankings conscious in this range of schools.
Re-assessing, you are now looking at:
#18 Vanderbilt (if taken off the waitlist): COA 3 years @ 180k. 87% Employment 58% with clerkship or biglaw.
#31 W&L: COA 3 years @ 95k. 84% employment, 30% with clerkship or biglaw.
#54 Tulane: COA 3 years @ 63k. 69% employment, 24% with clerkship or biglaw.
#59 UTk= COA= 0. 81% employment, 15% with clerkship or biglaw.
This is far more manageable list, and each school has a uniqueness that isn’t as easily compared as the initial list. From there I’d say:
#18 Vanderbilt: This is easily the most expensive school on the list, and the place to go if you want a legal career that is in biglaw or even academia. But you pay a price for it, and I’m not sure you’re that committed at this point.
#31 W&L: This is kind of your second choice “top school” from the list. Not quite the cachet of Vandy, but also about half the price. Under $100K in debt is still a lot, but far less than what many others walk out with. So, if portability is a top priority, then you’re going to have to pay for it to some extent. W&L is a solid choice here for what it costs you.
#54 Tulane: There’s a very strong argument that Tenn knocks out Tulane. I have serious reservations about Tulane’s low employment figures, and their major position placement isn’t that much better than Tenn’s yet they are $63K more. I left them in because you mentioned them first, but this seems a high price to pay when Tennessee is free. From another angle, there’s an argument that W&L knocks them out too–only $32K more with a solid improvement in numbers. New Orleans is a fantastic city, but is it worth this?
#59 UTk: This is by far the safest choice. Their numbers are solid, everyone’s heard of Tennessee, and it’s debt free. Go here and your career path can go in any direction you choose, with no monetary limitations.
Hopefully, that gives you something to think about. For everyone else reading, the above analysis is only on the numbers, and I’m aware that law school and the law school experience is far more than that. Any of the schools I so easily knocked out might be the best spot for Danny. But, getting an advanced degree is very often about money and opportunities. If you are in a similar situation and trying to make decision, you can make these same kinds of analyses and comparisons. It’s tough, but remember that every dollar of debt you take on is a dollar plus interest you have to pay back. The more debt you have, the fewer choices that will be in your hands down the line as far as jobs you can take.
Thanks!