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January 19, 2016

Scholarship vs. Prestige: When to Take the Money and Run

Update! We have two podcasts around this article: Episode 5 and Episode 53 of the PowerScore LSAT PodCast.

I wrote a blog titled, A Law Degree Is Worth over $1 Million. Can You Get It for Free? Predictably, we received several questions from former students who have the opportunity to attend law school on a full-ride scholarship. If you think their decision is a no-brainer, think again. Oftentimes, the choice is between attending a higher-ranked school at sticker price vs. a lower-ranked school for free or discounted. Before you get jealous, realize that these students found themselves in this enviable position because they worked hard for it. They excelled in college, on their applications, and perhaps most importantly—on their LSAT scores.

The Choice

For some, the decision is brutally simple. You’ll go to the highest-ranked law school you can get into, regardless of cost. There’s nothing wrong with that per se, assuming you aren’t motivated by prestige alone (you can’t eat prestige). If your goal is to work at a big law firm, clerk for a feeder judge, enter academia, or do public interest for the DOJ or another highly selective organization, a strong case can be made for choosing a top-14 law school over any lower-ranked school, even with money.

Some law firms are extremely selective in their recruitment practices. If you absolutely must work at Wachtell, you need to go to the right school. Furthermore, if you aren’t sure where you’d like to practice after graduation, a national school makes more sense. As the name implies, such a school will not restrict your employment opportunities to a particular city or region.

Last, but not least, many of the top law schools have generous loan forgiveness programs, which means that you don’t have to sell your soul take a six-figure job in order to repay your student debt. Generally, the better the law school, the better the loan forgiveness program (though you should still read the fine print). Of course, having no debt still beats having to deal with a loan repayment program.

In Terms of Grades…

From a purely economic perspective, the cost of attending a top law school is what you pay to mitigate risk. You only have a 1-in-10 chance of being in the top-10% of your 1L class (it sucks, I know). But, the better the school, the less important that is. Harvard, Yale, and Stanford don’t even have grades. While it is still possible to determine (roughly) where someone stands relative to his or her peers, such distinctions are only meaningful for a minority of law firms and judges.

The average student at Harvard Law can easily get a callback from a BIGLAW firm in NYC. To be competitive for the same job coming out of Cornell, our hypothetical 1L should ideally have above-median grades.  If he or she is a 1L at Fordham, top-30% seems to be the magic number. Broadly speaking, the further down the law school pecking order you get, the better your grades need to be in order to provide you with the same caliber of employment opportunities (assuming said opportunities even exist at the lower-tier schools).

Making the Decision

So, when does it make sense to take the money and run? It’s a deeply personal decision that depends on several factors. How risk-averse are you? Where would you like to practice after graduation? What do you want to do with your law degree? What’s your attitude toward debt in general? Among many others.

Rationally speaking, it’s worth taking the money at a lower ranked school when the anticipated benefit of attending such a school outweighs the opportunity cost of not attending it. Let’s say you’re making a choice between Fancy Law School (higher ranked, no money) and Bargain Law School (lower ranked, with money). I’d take the money and run if:

  • Both are national (top-14) law schools.
  • You don’t have a compelling personal reason for attending Fancy Law School, and received one of the following full scholarships at the Bargain school.
    • Levy at Penn Law
    • Dillard at UVA
    • Root-Tilden-Kern at NYU
    • A caveat: if Fancy Law School is either Harvard or Yale and you plan on pursuing an academic career. No amount of money elsewhere can compensate for the lost opportunity should you reject their offer.
  • Fancy Law School is a lower-ranked national school, whereas Bargain Law School is a highly regarded regional school (Fordham, BU, BC, GW, etc.). Take the money and run if:
    • You got a full ride at your Bargain option.
    • You would be happy to practice in the region where the Bargain school is located.
  • Both are top-50 law schools in the same region, Fancy Law School is a highly regarded regional school, whereas Bargain Law School is a slightly lower ranked school offering a scholarship worth at least 50% their annual tuition. Make sure to check the terms and conditions for renewing your scholarship and compare the relative merits of both schools using independent sources, such as:
    • US News Law School Rankings
    • Above The Law
  • Both are top-50 schools but in different regions, and you have no preference for the Fancy Law School region over the Bargain Law School region. However, if the region in which Bargain Law School is located is less desirable than the alternative, then you need to think carefully about whether the trade-off is really worth it, as the Bargain Law School region is likely where you’ll end up practicing after graduation.
  • Many would argue that no school outside the top-50 is worth paying sticker price for. Only go to a Tier-2/3 school if you can do it at a deep discount, ideally for free.

It’s worth emphasizing that this is a personal choice. With that said, take the advice above with a grain of salt. At the very least, it should provide a starting point for your decision-making process.

Asking Questions

We have been asked hundreds of questions about specific law school decisions, and below this post are those questions and our answers. If you would like to ask us about a specific school choice, please provide the following information for each school in the mix:

  • School Name (USNews Ranking) – Scholarship Amount – Total Cost of Attendance
  • Pros/cons of the school in your eyes, any related factors in the decision
  • Your career aspirations

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Posted by Dave Killoran / Law School Admissions / Law School Admissions, Scholarships 188 Comments

  • Todd Steiner
    March 30, 2016 at 7:55pm

    My son has a strong interest in academia law. If he gets accepted to Yale, he will probably accept it (besides its many strong attributes they have a superior loan repayment program). In the mean time he is deliberating between Harvard Law and NYU with a full tuition scholarship coupled with direct mentoring from a NYU law professor (the Vanderbilt scholarship).

    Based on the pool of people he has spoken to, the consensus is leaning towards Harvard and the better choice which is the advice in your article. However, a law professor(from a non-top 20 law school)my son spoke to thought the NYU mentoring arrangement was special and might actually yield him more benefit in pursuing an academia career than attending HLS.

    Would the promise by NYU of individualized counseling change the equation in your analysis?

  • Dave Killoran
    April 03, 2016 at 6:24pm

    Hi Todd,

    Thanks for the question! Nikki will probably reply by tomorrow, but in the meantime I thought I’d add my thoughts. I’ll try to touch on a number of different considerations here, just to give you both some things to think about.

    First, congrats to your son on the offers he’s received thus far–he’s clearly a top-notch candidate!

    Second, there are a few different factors floating around here, one of which is cost. I can’t tell from your post if money/debt is an important consideration but obviously it is for most people. If both Harvard and NYU are offering full rides, that would be a very different picture compared to a situation where NYU is a full ride and Harvard is full cost.

    Third, the scholarship and mentoring is a fabulous opportunity, and one worth thinking about. The nice thing is that his ability to work with a professor under a preset arrangement is fixed in place, and he has a guarantee that he will get that time and attention. However, those relationships can and are formed at every school, albeit in a less formalized arrangement. The question is, does your son have the kind of personality that would seek out and develop such a relationship? If so, then that lowers the importance of what NYU is offering (that said, it’s a great offer from NYU because it’s certain). There’s also a question of who the mentor would be, which can impact the value of the relationship.

    Where you got to law school does have a huge impact on your opportunities within the legal field and academia (Harvard and Yale are the two top-producing schools when it comes to Supreme Court justices, for example). If all else is equal, going to the best “name” school is often call. NYU and Harvard are both top schools, but Harvard has the edge in name recognition and prestige.

    One overlooked aspect of this decision is which school does he think he would enjoy the most? This is important because law school is tough, and the more you enjoy your environment, the better you tend to perform. And for academic positions, his grades will be a huge deal. So, he needs to be in the best possible environment for him to succeed.

    I realize that’s not a definitive answer, but I don’t think we have enough info about your son to make a call (nor should we–this has to be his decision).

    Please let me know if this helps, and again, congratulations–this is the kind of choice everyone would love to have!

  • Nicolay Siclunov
    April 05, 2016 at 4:22pm

    Hi Todd,

    I completely agree with Dave here (congrats to your son, btw – he has the most enviable of choices to make!)

    Regarding NYU with full scholarship vs. Harvard, there are two main issues here:

    1. How certain is your son that he wants to pursue an academic career? If he’s dead set on it, then Harvard and Yale probably do win, with or without money at other top-10 law schools. You need to realize, however, that such a decision is really difficult to make before even stepping foot in law school. What if he changes his mind and decides to do corporate law? Or get into politics with the hopes of becoming a judge? Or join the Justice Department? Or become a public defender? Or federal prosecutor? The list goes on… I’m not saying that Harvard will be ill-suited for such pursuits (quite on the contrary); however, NYU will arguably be just as good of a choice, one that will save him the equivalent of a downpayment on a mortgage. Furthermore, while there are indeed more HLS alums as Supreme Court clerks, professors, and SCOTUS justices, these statistics don’t confirm that HLS is vastly superior to NYU in preparing its students to join these elite ranks. You are looking at a self-selected sample: what if HLS students are merely more likely to compete for such positions in the first place? There is also an outcome bias here, judging a decision based on the outcome alone. If he’s a student at or near the top of his class at NYU, with stellar mentoring and no debt, there will be nothing – NOTHING – to stop him from pursuing whatever career he wants – even in academia or the judiciary. The first step will be securing a federal clerkship with a feeder judge, something a top NYU Law student is just as likely to secure as a HLS student.

    2. Is cost a considerable factor here? If your son plans to borrow money to attend Harvard or Yale, even with their excellent loan forgiveness programs, the debt will be a burden that may shape the future decisions he makes. Having no debt will give him a lot more freedom than even the best loan forgiveness program in the world. Of course, if cost is not a factor – i.e. he or you will be paying for his education out of pocket – then by all means, let him go to Harvard! 🙂 The name has a nice ring to it, and it’s a wonderful place to spend 3 years. (I went there, I know :-). Needless to say, your son needs to visit both schools and get a feel for each.

    One decision may be wiser than the other, but there is no “wrong” choice here. Let us know what you guys decide to do!

  • Todd Steiner
    April 21, 2016 at 3:41pm

    Dear Dave and Nikki,

    I just returned from traveling abroad and saw your replies. Thank you. Your points are spot on.

    My son has not yet made a decision, but he must do so any day now.

    The following sets forth additional information:

    –Money/debt is an important factor.
    –He is pretty dead set on in pursuing an academic career, but we recognize the ultra competiveness of this field.
    –He does have the personality that would seek out and develop relationships with key professors.
    –Nevertheless, the NYU mentor has a good reputation and my son spoke with him and liked him.
    –He visited both Harvard and NYU. He came away with the positive feeling that he would enjoy Harvard more. He found the classes he attended at Harvard and its overall environment much more stimulating than at NYU and more in-line with his personality.
    –He is not intimated by NYU’s grading system but he does prefer the Yale and Harvard approach to grading and we assume does lower some risk. After all, at NYU he would have to be at the top of the class to achieve certain goals in setting up an academic career.
    –Assuming he was successful in a pursuit of an academic career we roughly estimate that under HLS’s repayment program about 45% of the total debt would be covered. The remaining 65% of course is a lot of money. However, he wouldn’t be completely debt-free at NYU since the scholarship covers only the tuition. I figure the difference of debt repayments (including interest) over 10 years is about $165k.
    –He is still waiting and hoping to hear something positive from Yale.

    Based on the above, please let me know if you have any updated take on this situation.

    Also, could you expand on why you think HLS may provide the better opportunity for a successful pursuit of an academic career? Could it also assist in ultimately landing a more prestigious position than NYU Law (which could offset the investment cost)?

    Thanks again for your interest,
    Todd

  • Sabrina Heck
    May 14, 2016 at 1:20pm

    Hi! I am currently trying to decide between attending a top 50 law school with no scholarship or a lower ranked (but not by much) law school with a large scholarship amount. The top 50 school is UNC Chapel Hill and the top 100 school is Villanova. I am currently out of state for UNC but will be able to get in state residency by next year. I’m not totally sure what field of law I would like to practice but I am leaning towards Healthcare law. I haven’t had to take out any student loans for my undergraduate career and with the scholarship given to me by Villanova and the money I have in savings(I’ve worked 3 jobs at the same time throughout undergrad) if I attend there the loan I would need to take out would be minimal, but if I go to UNC I will have to take out a much heftier loan and risk exiting law school almost a quarter million in debt. I’m leaning towards Villanova because of its location to Philly and all the money I would save, but I also know that UNC has a great program.

  • Nicolay Siclunov
    May 14, 2016 at 8:05pm

    Hello Sabrina,

    Thanks for your post! Attending Villanova virtually free is a sweet deal, but you need to keep in mind the following:

    1. Most scholarships are conditional upon achieving a certain GPA year-to-year. Make sure you read the fine print.
    2. Only about 10% of the graduating class from Villanova ends up in a BIGLAW firm, so if that’s the ultimate objective – you need to be top-10% of your class, give-or-take.
    3. Nearly 20% of Villanova students attend tuition-free. Assuming these are among the most qualified students in the entering class, competition for a spot in the top-10% of the class is likely to be keen.

    Check out the following links about Villanova:

    http://abovethelaw.com/schools/villanova-law/?rf=1
    http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/villanova/jobs/2015/
    http://www.philly.com/philly/business/law/20151014_Villanova_law_school_…

    UNC-Chapel Hill is a vastly superior program. Roughly a quarter of the class manages to secure a BIGLAW job, and 5% goes on to pursue federal clerkships. The school has a much stronger reputation nation-wide than Villanova, and places exceptionally well in North Carolina, D.C. and (to a lesser extent) NYC:

    http://abovethelaw.com/schools/university-of-north-carolina-law/
    http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/unc/jobs/2015/

    The question is, is this worth a difference of $250K? Probably not, but it’s a very subjective decision – it depends on your career objectives, location preferences, etc. Both schools are regional, so you need to be comfortable with the idea of working in the Philly area if you go to Villanova. UNC has a broader reach for sure, but keep in mind that 50% of the class remains to practice in North Carolina.

    Have you tried negotiating the amount of scholarship money at UNC-Chapel Hill? Are there any other schools you’re still waiting on?

    As it stands now, I’m leaning slightly towards Villanova, assuming 1) your scholarship is NOT conditional; 2) you’re comfortable practicing at a smaller law firm; and 3) have no problem settling in Philly and the surrounding areas.

    Good luck with your decision!

  • Sabrina
    May 14, 2016 at 10:47pm

    Hi! Thank you so much for your response. I haven’t tried negotiating with UNC, I actually didn’t even know that was something I could do.I’m not waiting on any other schools, I’ve narrowed it down to these two. I have family and ties in both areas so I am okay with living in either region. I do know that my scholarship to Villanova is not conditional. I haven’t fully decided which field of law I would like to practice, but I think I am leaning towards either Healthcare law or a federal clerkship. How would one go about negotiating?

  • Nicolay Siclunov
    May 14, 2016 at 11:07pm

    Hi Sabrina,

    Schools are typically willing to negotiate the amount of aid they offer, especially if a comparable school has offered you significantly more money. Unfortunately, Villanova and UNC are not exactly in the same tier, which would make it difficult to leverage your aid at Villanova. Still, it’s worth a shot: simply email the Dean of Admissions and/or Financial Aid at UNC, thank them for admitting you into their class, and say you’re reaching out to discuss the amount of aid they are offering. Say you’ve received a generous aid from Villanova (and any other school ranked similarly to UNC), and ask if there is any opportunity for you to receive a comparable financial aid package. It’s important to emphasize that UNC is your top choice, and financial considerations are the only thing standing in the way of sending in your deposit.

    On a side note, no one expects you to know what area of specialization you’d like to focus on after graduation. Law schools differ in this regard way less than most people suspect: the curriculum is virtually standardized for the first year anyway. Also, a federal judicial clerkship is not a field of law, so the choice you’ve described is moot. A clerkship is one of the most coveted professional experiences you can have right after law school. It usually lasts a year (or two), after which – well, you can pretty much write your own ticket to a law firm of your choice 🙂

    Good luck with your decision!!

  • Beth Albright
    August 02, 2016 at 2:00pm

    Hi, My son has two nice scholarship offers. One is from Indiana for 90,000. One is from Washingnton University in St. Louis for 70,000. We have visited both and he is wrestling hard over the decision. WashU is a career placement machine, starting from day one to find those prestigious internships, federal clerkships etc. They also have a huge national reach. Indian is a warmer program with a strong regional reach. Does the money in this case make much difference? What do you think is the best choice?

    Beth

  • Nicolay Siclunov
    August 02, 2016 at 2:20pm

    Dear Beth,

    Thanks for your question, and congrats on your son’s scholarship offers! To answer your question, Wash U is the better school. It’s not even close. By all accounts – job placement, academics, prestige, bar passage rate, clerkships, etc. – Wash U wins hands down. The only advantage to attending Indiana is the slightly lower cost of tuition. But, is $20K really worth the step-down? Not in my book. This is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.

    I’d only consider Indiana if 1) I actually wanted to practice in Indiana or Illinois, and nowhere else; 2) got in-state tuition, which is considerably lower than out-of-state; and 3) really disliked Wash U when visiting. Unless all three of these conditions are met, I see no reason to even consider Indiana as a possible contender.

    Hope this helps a bit! 🙂 Let me know if you have any other question.

  • Beth
    August 04, 2016 at 2:20am

    Wonderful!! This is exactly what I wanted to know. He paid his deposit and he will be in the 150th entering class of Washington University Law! I so appreciate your help!

    ~Many thanks!

    Beth

  • Nikki
    December 09, 2016 at 4:55am

    Hi guys! I am agonizing over this decision and need some input from someone KNOWLEDGEABLE and who knows the state of TODAY’S legal market. I cannot read anymore blogs(especially those from 2010)/get opinions from people who don’t know the market! I plan on living and working in NYC. I’m from Long Island so I may move out to the ‘burbs again later on but not while in school/shortly thereafter. Ive received decisions from Fordham and Cardozo. Sticker and Fordham, 100% tuition unconditional at Cardozo. I would love to do biglaw, for the money obviously, but I am completely aware that this is in no way a guarantee, especially with the Columbia/NYU competition. Mostly, I want to be successful and make as much money as possible. I am an older-generation student (I’ll be entering at 30) and have worked as a paralegal and taken legal courses to gain a paralegal certificate. I am researching how to study and think(hope) I have a grip on what lies ahead. I am hoping this will translate into a competitive advantage against my younger peers-but again I know anything goes. One bad final and I’m screwed. Anyway, I was hoping to get some input on my choices outlined above. $300k (I’m including NYC COL) for Fordam with more prestige/better employment prospects/potential higher salary? Or free ride with $90k debt (COL only) at Cardozo and hustle for a job with a (very) likely lower salary? Thanks so much for taking the time.

  • Cody
    January 05, 2017 at 4:49pm

    Hi Team,

    First off, thanks for publishing an up-to-date and thoughtful article on this topic. While it’s a blessing to be in the kind of position described here, it’s certainly stress inducing as well.

    I’m currently weighing two different scholarship offers:
    1. Unconditional full-tuition and fees to the University of Houston Law Center (UH)
    2. $20k per year offer from the University of Texas Law School (UT)

    I am a long-time Texas resident and likely will want to stay in Texas after graduation. I have an undergrad degree in Electrical Engineering and have been working as an engineer for several years. I think I am interested in intellectual property law, but am drawn to studying law partially because there are so many opportunities to study different topics. Overall not 100% sure what area I’d like to practice in long-term.

    A few more things I am considering:
    – UT is a top 15 law school nationally; UH is top 50.
    – UT sends nearly 10x as many graduates to clerkships as any other school in Texas, including UH. I’m not sure I’ll want to pursue a clerkship, but it is certainly a nice option.
    – Cost of living in Houston is significantly less than in Austin.
    – Without taking any loans for cost of living (my wife’s salary will hopefully allow that), I would graduate UT Law with ~$45k in debt. That doesn’t seem like much relative to what many others end up with from law school, but feels like a ton relative to going for free at UH.
    – For IP Law in particular, UH is typically ranked in the top 10

    I’d be delighted to hear your thoughts on the situation!

    Thanks in advance,
    Cody

  • Nikki
    January 05, 2017 at 5:24pm

    Hi it’s Nikki. I have an update on the above. I was awarded 30k per year at Fordham. I’m leaning towards Fordham but the debt still scares me. I was just wondering if you had and thoughts or input. Thanks so much!

  • Dave Killoran
    January 05, 2017 at 5:57pm

    Hey Cody,

    Thanks for the question! This is a tough one. I’m generally quite anti-debt, but there are times when it’s reasonable to take some debt on. This might be one of those times, so let’s look at some factors:

    I’m a Houston fan. I think the law school is up-and-coming, and the overall school profile is growing nationally (the recent success of the football team cannot be discounted in that; anything that gets the school name in front of more people is a good thing).

    2. Relatively speaking though, UT is simply the bigger, more recognized name, and it has national presence. Houston only has regional presence. That is, however, offset by your desire to stay in Texas after graduation.

    3. When it comes to specific specialties, I don’t give those much weight. First, most employers don’t really think about them. employers hire on school name and class rank/grades, and not so much on which school are the best at environmental law. Second, as you readily admitted, your interests are far from certain, and can and likely will change once you get into school. So, using the IP ranking as a factor here doesn’t seem like a good idea. In the same way, the relative clerkship success at UT also doesn’t influence me, although it is in fact a reflection of the definably higher prestige associated with attending Texas. There no way of knowing if you’ll want to go the clerkship route, although one can say that going to Texas preserves that option whereas going to UH lessens it.

    4. The free ride at UH is pretty attractive 🙂 I mean, zero debt more or less speaks for itself, and its why this is a debate at all. On the other hand, the Texas debt is at least manageable. If you can come out under $50K for a T15 law school education, that’s pretty solid. with your EE background, you’d probably be in better shape than the average grad, something that I also factor into the equation.

    So, all that said, this is a classic “higher prestige with debt” vs “lower rank but free” argument. If it was me, I’d probably lean very slightly towards UT, but I don’t think there’s a wrong answer here, and that’s the good news: you either come out of this with a free law school education (which I find wildly attractive) or a top-level degree and low-level debt. All in all, you’re the real winner here 🙂

    Please let me know if this helps. Thanks, and definitely keep me posted on what you decide!

  • Dave Killoran
    January 05, 2017 at 6:12pm

    Hey Nikki,

    I’m so sorry I missed your first post! I respond to everything I see, so if you somehow don’t get a response from me, always repost (especially on posts like this, which I didn’t write; it may take a time or two)!!

    Ok, let’s run this down one more time. the choices are:

    Fordham, which results in $210K debt after the $30K per year is applied

    OR

    Cardozo, which results in $90K debt total

    Do I have that right? And, are there any other schools still in play at this point? If I have all the facts right, then I’ll add some thoughts.

    Thanks!

  • Rebecca
    January 22, 2017 at 11:06pm

    Hello,
    Do you regard Penn Law, Duke, or UVA law worth giving up a full ride and paying sticker price for national recognition and job prospect wise? Even if the full ride was at a top 50 school such as Florida State law or UF law?

    I’d love to know your thoughts as they aren’t HYS, but still T14 schools?

  • Nikki
    January 23, 2017 at 4:07am

    Hi Dave! I missed your post back to me! We are batting 1000 here! You are correct in the above, except I did a little negotiating and got 5k more per year at Fordham. That was the most they are willing to give. I would SO appreciate your thoughts. I have full ride to st John’s and 90% tuition at Brooklyn, but the two main contenders are Fordham and Cardozo. Thanks so much again.

  • Dave Killoran
    January 24, 2017 at 1:16am

    Hi Rebecca,

    This is a very tough question that no one can really answer for you 🙂 So many factors go into this that are personal that honestly you are the only person who can say how you value certain elements and what you want from a law school. I can tell you that a big part of this equation is where will you do the best? Your first year grades will have a huge impact and so you need to be as comfortable and happy as possible.

    For me, I strongly tend towards debt avoidance, and so if you are going to pay sticker price vs a T50 full ride, then you should have some very good reasons for doing so. It’s very hard to beat a debt-free education, and even a big name doesn’t automatically pay the bills. So, weigh all the competing factors and your needs very carefully. Each person will arrive at a different answer, but you need to be as comfortable as possible with the decision you make.

    Good luck!

  • Ryan
    January 26, 2017 at 5:54am

    Nikki,
    My gf is in almost the exact same situation. She has full rides to several schools but at this point is only considering St. John’s, North Eastern, and Villanova. She also has 80% at GMU and 25k a year at Fordham. She is AGONIZING over the best school to choose. She would like to practice BigLaw, but is wondering if the 60k total in loans is worth it for Fordham when she can go to St. John’s or Nova on full rides…

  • Ryan
    January 26, 2017 at 5:06pm

    Nikki,

    How did you go about asking for more money at Fordham? Did u cite specific schools as leverage?

  • Nikki
    January 26, 2017 at 8:26pm

    Hi Ryan! I know this is so so so hard. That’s exactly what I did!

  • Ryan
    January 26, 2017 at 8:55pm

    Nikki,

    Which schools in particular if u dont mind me asking?

  • Nikki
    January 26, 2017 at 9:12pm

    I don’t mind…St. John’s and Cardozo

  • Dave Killoran
    January 30, 2017 at 10:59pm

    Hey Nikki,

    Ok, so the latest situation is:

    Fordham, which results in $195K debt after the $35K per year is applied

    OR

    Cardozo, which results in $90K debt total

    In other words, about $100K more in total debt to attend Fordham. Oh boy, this is not easy at all! Law is often a rankings game, and Fordham comes in at #37 whereas Cardozo is #74. Knowing that you want Biglaw in NYC, obviously Fordham has the edge (and it’s a fairly big edge as Cardozo doesn’t produce many biglaw associates. See https://www.lstreports.com/schools/cardozo/ and https://www.lstreports.com/schools/fordham. Plus, here’s an anecdotal example supporting the same conclusion: http://abovethelaw.com/2016/09/the-best-and-worst-new-york-law-schools-f…). But, the debt worries me a lot, and I know it worries you too, especially given your age. I’m also concerned about how Biglaw firms will view you as a 33 year associate–you may encounter some hesitation on their part (I’ve heard of such in the past). Then again, your paralegal background can help offset that and would ease the concerns of a law firm, especially on the theory that you’d acclimate even faster and be more efficient. It literally is impossible to call here so I’m going to make a unusual suggestion that may or may not work. I think you should call the hiring office of a biglaw firm or two and see if you can’t find someone who will give you advice here. Explain your situation in a very brief, concise nutshell (don’t go more than 30 seconds) and ask if they have any thoughts. It’s a longshot, but if you could find one person who could almost serve as a “5-minute mentor,” it might set you at ease about your chances and your decision.

    I personally fear the debt we are talking about here, because $195K is nothing to sneeze at. But, neither is $90K, so you already know you’re going down that path to some extent, it’s just a matter now of how far. Is the better ranking worth the extra $100k? It might be but only if you do well (and I can see that you know that by the comment you made about one bad final). It comes down to your commitment to Biglaw, because for that Fordham is the way to go. But I don’t think the extra money is really worth the extra boost because once you have that debt, you’re stuck with it.

    So, I suppose I’d go with the lower debt, but I understand why this is difficult. That lower debt comes with lower opportunity. Either way, you will need top grades but you’ll have to be top 5-8% to pull a Biglaw job. That is a lot of pressure 🙁

    I wish I could do more here, but there isn’t a “best” answer, just what is best for you. Thanks!

  • Nikki
    February 01, 2017 at 1:27am

    Thank you SO much for taking the time Dave, I really appreciate and will let you know how my calls go!

  • Ryan
    February 01, 2017 at 5:46pm

    Yea Dave this is a hard one. My gf would o ot have to pay about $500 a year for parking and what not at St. John’s or like 70k in loans for Fordham… it’s deff a difficult decision. It’s funny you suggested calling a firm bc I know someone who gave the same advice… after looking at this article I am leaning St. John’s beacause of the cost and my belief that she can finish near the top. One of my best friends is an even L2 #2 in his class at St John’s. he will be an additional awesome resource… http://abovethelaw.com/2016/09/the-best-and-worst-new-york-law-schools-f… Yes Fordham has way more “Big Law” lawyers but their class size is much bigger… Take the money and run? After visiting Fordham and saint johns, I would say she is more comfortable at St. John’s. Fordham has this colder, we’re a good school, fend for urself approach… We shall see… Villanova has been nothing short of great and personable in the pre selection process so they’re making it difficult as well…

  • Josie
    February 12, 2017 at 12:18am

    Hi Nikki, hope this isn’t too much of a dumb question…you mentioned Cardozo’s offer was a full ride and still 90K in debt (over the 3 years), What exactly does that 90K include? Housing, books, etc..I am just wondering why one would still have 30k a year in debt, without having to pay any tuition? I too will be applying to Cardozo, Fordham, and Villanova and leaning towards Villanova (free ride tuition scholarship) and because the cost of living in PA near villanova is much less then rents/cost of living in the NYC. Ideally my preference though would be to live and go to school in nyc, however the debt I would incur with only partial tuition scholarships, (although a free ride cardozo and unsure about $ fordham will offer) and the cost of living would put me way up there in debt than if i were to choose villanova and lived and worked in PA(philly area). Any insight would be much appreciated!! If it’s not too much trouble, advise me on the remaining debt for both cardozo and fordham (90k vs. approx. 300k)? Thank you! Josie

  • Josie
    February 12, 2017 at 12:19am

    Hi Nikki, hope this isn’t too much of a dumb question…you mentioned Cardozo’s offer was a full ride and still 90K in debt (over the 3 years), What exactly does that 90K include? Housing, books, etc..I am just wondering why one would still have 30k a year in debt, without having to pay any tuition? I too will be applying to Cardozo, Fordham, and Villanova and leaning towards Villanova (free ride tuition scholarship) and because the cost of living in PA near villanova is much less then rents/cost of living in the NYC. Ideally my preference though would be to live and go to school in nyc, however the debt I would incur with only partial tuition scholarships, (although a free ride cardozo and unsure about $ fordham will offer) and the cost of living would put me way up there in debt than if i were to choose villanova and lived and worked in PA(philly area). Any insight would be much appreciated!! If it’s not too much trouble, advise me on the remaining debt for both cardozo and fordham (90k vs. approx. 300k)? Thank you! Josie

  • Nikki
    February 12, 2017 at 2:59am

    Hi Josie!

    Not silly at all! See this link – Cardozo’s non-tuition cost of attendance is $27,414. I round up to $30 because its easy (hence why I’m not going for a more math-based career). http://www.cardozo.yu.edu/current-students/tuition-and-financial-aid/tui….

    If you have any other questions let me know!

  • Melissa
    March 14, 2017 at 2:06pm

    Hey guys,

    I’ve been working on making a decision but don’t have much to go on career wise because i’m not sure where I want to end up after graduation. I’ve been looking into Cardozo as well but have only been offered $22,000 per year. However, Hofstra offered me a full ride and I was wondering if the full ride would be worth it from a much lesser ranked school?

    Thanks so much.

  • Dave Killoran
    March 14, 2017 at 6:35pm

    Hey Melissa,

    Thanks for the question! I’m personally very debt-averse, and so if one is going to take on debt, I think should be for a good reason (like you are getting a name brand so strong that it will carry you some distance). Cardozo (#65) vs Hofstra (#118) is a classic matchup, and in cases like this, I like to look at LST employment info: https://www.lstreports.com/state/NY. Honestly, for the most recent year, it’s very close, and at a full ride, Hofstra is the better deal. I can’t see a reason to pay for Cardozo–sure, the ranking is better, but it’s not doing a whole lot for their grads in comparison to Hofstra.

    If you are going to take on debt, there should be a great reason for it. I don’t see one here.

    Thanks!

  • Dakota Wild
    March 15, 2017 at 2:57am

    Hi Dave,

    Thanks so much for answering everyone’s questions. I’m currently grappling to decide between Fordham with $135,000 scholarship, and Penn, with no money. It seems that the two are in completely different ranks… It would be really hard for me to turn down a prestigious opportunity like attending Penn for a school without as much name or reach, like Fordham. At the same time, being in debt from attending Penn at sticker could affect the rest of my life. I likely want to work in New York City upon graduation, but I am not NYC or bust. I’d like to consider the option of working for government in DC. What do you think? Am I throwing out an amazing opportunity by attending Fordham instead of Penn? Is there even a discussion between the two schools? I would really love to go to Penn, though I feel that a big part of my interest is the prestige, and I’m not sure that’s a good enough reason.

    Thanks!

  • Nicole
    March 15, 2017 at 5:24am

    Hi all – love the blog! It’s been incredibly helpful.

    I am currently debating between Penn State (Dickinson) and UC Hastings and was hoping I could get your thoughts?

    Hastings has said I could get “up to $10,000” in need-based grants but as of now, I haven’t officially heard anything back. There is a possibility I could commute from my parents’ home (which would save on COL) but I’m not really banking on it. Meanwhile, Penn State (esp. with their 21 spot jump in ranking) has offered me $105,000. Either way, I’d be leaving with debt 🙁 it just depends on how much. I’m originally from the Bay Area and Hastings has a lot going for it regionally. Penn State (though I believe we’re coming up on their 2nd year as a stand-alone) has been doing some great things, but I’m still a little wary.

    Thoughts at all on this?

  • Dave Killoran
    March 15, 2017 at 6:01pm

    Hey Dakota,

    Well, what you have is the classic name vs money decision, which is probably the toughest one in the admissions world. Whereas in some cases I have a strong feeling about what to do, in this one I don’t. So, let’s break it down. First, what’s the exact financial outcome for each. I’ll use the LST Reports:

    https://www.lstreports.com/schools/fordham/ — Non-discounted cost of $307K – $135K scholarship = $172K debt.

    https://www.lstreports.com/schools/penn/ — Non-discounted cost of $320K – $0K scholarship = $320K debt.

    So, a significant difference there. And one, that as you rightly note, could follow you around and affect the rest of your life.

    Now, are the job prospect differences enough to make a difference. Again, back to LST:

    Fordham: Employment score = 66.8% / Under Employment = 17.8%

    Penn: Employment score = 89.8% / Under Employment = 4.9%

    Again, a significant difference, and you can see that while you pay more, your job outcomes are better from Penn (and they better be, for that price!). By the way, pay close attention to the graduate outcomes box in the lower right. Penn has 66.3% grads going into large firms and 10.6% into Federal clerkship jobs (highly coveted). Fordham? 33.7% grads going into large firms and 1.7% into Federal clerkship jobs. In other words, Penn provides a 76% chance of large firm/clerk jobs, whereas Fordham is about 35%. they are, as you say, in very different classes.

    At this point, it’s about what happens with the individual. Because although at Fordham you have less leeway for a bad exam or bad day, when you look at Penn there are still people struggling coming out of that school. Not everyone gets what they want, and there’s problem: if you could guarantee that you are in the positive outcome group, then Penn is a reasonable call, but you can’t guarantee that. And so it comes down to how you feel about all sorts of factors, including the environment at each school, how confident you are in your abilities, and so on.

    I don’t know the best decision here for you, mainly because I don’t know you 🙂 I am generally debt-averse but I understand the pull of Penn here. Do you have any other admittances in the T14 or even T20 that gave you money that you could use to bargain with Penn? For example, maybe Duke gave you $20K a year? If so, use that as leverage and ask Penn for an improved aid package.

    Sorry, there’s no “right” answer here but hopefully this gave you something to think about. Good luck!

  • Dave Killoran
    March 15, 2017 at 6:17pm

    Hey Nicole,

    Great, I’m glad we’re helping! Three things here:

    First, talk to Hastings and get the financials locked down. Be straight up with them and explain that you are making a decision and the money is key (which won’t be a surprise to them :). From there, run the debt calculations for each school, and include everything you can think of, including travel to Pennsylvania, etc. And talk to your parents as well–will you be able to stay there for certain? And will that work for you personally?

    Second, it sounds like you are concerned about the recency of Penn’s two law schools. I wouldn’t be. they’ve made a commitment here, and both schools are doing just fine. This is a school system with serious resources, and I don’t see any cause for concern that they will run into problems. So, on that count at least, I would not be concerned.

    Third, the school choice here is geographically rather stark. This isn’t Philly vs NYC as we saw in another question here, but instead Downtown SF vs Carlisle/Harrisburg. Totally different parts of the country and location experiences. What’s your feeling there, and also, where do you see yourself practicing? I’m a former full-time Bay Area resident and current part-time resident, and obviously this area is amazing (but expensive). If you want to stay in this region, you need to factor that in a bit to the decision.

    Hopefully those are some thoughts that help clarify the situation, but it seems you probably need to get some more information first, especially from Hastings. Please let me know if that helps, and good luck!

  • Mary
    March 16, 2017 at 2:06am

    Hi! I am currently debating between Washington University in St. Louis, Boston College and Notre Dame. To be honest, I’m leaning away from Notre Dame, but it isn’t completely off the market yet, either. Regarding scholarships, I received $35,000 per year at WashU, $26,000 per year at Boston College and $20,000 per year at Notre Dame. I know I want to practice big law after I graduate, but I am open to practicing in many cities. My biggest concern is job placement. I know Boston College sends about 25 percent of its graduates to big law, whereas WashU sends about 17 percent. I’m also concerned that WashU has less of a national reputation than Notre Dame and am worried that it will be difficult finding a job. Any opinion on what to do would be greatly appreciated!

  • Dave Killoran
    March 16, 2017 at 10:15pm

    Hi Mary,

    Thanks for the question! Ok, my first standard piece of advice is to use LST Reports to get at data that will help clarify your options: https://www.lstreports.com/national/. Here’s what we know about rankings and debt (all numbers rounded to nearest thousand):

    #26 Boston College: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/bc/

    Total Cost: $261K
    Minus Scholarship: -$78K
    Total Debt after grad: $183K

    #20 Notre Dame: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/notredame/

    Total Cost: $279K
    Minus Scholarship: -$60K
    Total Debt after grad: $219K

    #18 WashU: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/washu/

    Total Cost: $284K
    Minus Scholarship: -$105K
    Total Debt after grad: $179K

    So, the schools are all rather closely ranked (18-20-26). As for debt, BC and WashU put you in about the same ending spot, whereas ND a good $40K more.

    Let’s turn to Biglaw jobs prospects (but I add clerkships in too, since those often create many very positive career options afterwards). Again, using LST Reports and looking at school employment outcomes:

    #26 Boston College: 41.3%
    #20 Notre Dame: 40.2%
    #18 WashU: 33.8%

    And, of course, this step is quite revealing: although Note Dame costs more, BC very slightly outperforms it (note: the numbers are all under 50%, which is saying hat your chances are less than half of going down this pathway with any of these schools). Why does this occur? Because of BC being in Boston, a big town, whereas ND is in South Bend (yes, close to Chicago, but not actually IN Chicago). St. Louis is decent sized, but it’s not a major legal center.

    I realize that Notre Dame has a big name because everyone in the US knows the school (their big time football program certainly doesn’t hurt with that). But they have a lower rank, cost more, and don’t do better than BC in terms of placement. So, if you aren’t feeling ND, I don’t see a great reason to change your mind.

    So, if you’re down to BC and WashU, you are actually in a GREAT spot. why? Because WashU has the better ranking AND gave you a better aid offer. It’s time to use that better offer as leverage and negotiate yourself an improved BC package.

    Here’s what I’d do: I’d go to BC and tell them you really want to go there (assuming that’s true) but that money is obviously an issue. Explain that you currently have a strong financial aid offer from WashU (their $35K per year vs $26K from BC), and take it from there to attempt to get them to improve their offer. That might then put BC over the top as your top choice.

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Mary
    March 19, 2017 at 12:36am

    Hi Dave,

    Thank you so much for your response! That definitely helps. I actually just got back from Boston today and am fairly confident that I want to be at BC, but money is of course a huge hinderance in this. Unfortunately, admissions representatives were out of the office doing recruiting activities while I was there, so I was unable to speak to anybody in person. Instead, I drafted an email to BC and am planning on sending it tonight basically stating the above. Do scholarship negotiations usually work from your experience?

    You definitely confirmed my current thoughts–ND is likely a no, BC is probable pending scholarship negotiations and WashU is backup should scholarship negotiations end not in my favor. Hearing your thoughts on this has been a huge help; it’s nice to know that I’m approaching this decision in the right way!

    Thank you so much for your help. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your prompt feedback and input on this! I’ll keep you updated after scholarship negotiations. Crossing my fingers it works out!

  • Sonya
    March 19, 2017 at 4:34am

    Hi!
    Having a difficult time making a decision. My daughter has several choices: UC Hastings with no money; Univ San Fran and Santa Clara with 85% scholarship; Chapman with full ride. Hastings by far highest ranked but not sure if she should take on the debt. Causing sleepless nights. Help!

  • Mary
    March 20, 2017 at 7:24pm

    Hi Dave,

    I just wanted to follow up. BC got back to me and said that their initial offer ($26,000 per year) is their best offer. As a generally debt adverse person, what do you recommend at this stage? Go to BC, have more debt but have potentially better job prospects, or go to WashU, have less debt but also worse job prospects in big law? Thanks again for your help!

  • Lindsay
    March 21, 2017 at 4:05pm

    Hello,

    I would love if you could give me some insight on my current situation. I’m currently on the waitlist for University of Washington, Boston University, Notre Dame, and UC Irvine. I’m waiting to hear back from UC Davis, William & Mary, and USC. I have received a full ride scholarship offer from Willamette University in Oregon and a $22,000 per year scholarship from the University of Oregon.

    I currently live in Oregon, and have a job at the Oregon legislature that I really enjoy. However, I was hoping to leave Oregon. The Oregon schools are much lower ranked than the waitlist schools. If I get off the waitlist for any of the higher ranked schools, do you think it would be worth it to attend one of them instead of the cheaper, lower ranked Oregon schools?

    I appreciate any insight you may have!

  • Dakota Wild
    March 21, 2017 at 10:16pm

    Hi Dave,

    Thanks for your input. It’s a classic and difficult position indeed!

    Unfortunately I don’t have money at other T14s… I was waitlisted at Duke + Berkeley, rejected at Cornell, and given nothing at Georgetown. I do have $30k (total) from UCLA and $105k from GW, but I don’t feel there is much in either of those in terms of negotiating with Penn . What do you think?

    Thanks!
    Dakota

  • Brooke
    March 22, 2017 at 12:30am

    Useful site. Deciding between $150,000 at Washington University, $135,000 at UVA, sticker price at Cornell, Duke, Penn, and Columbia, or at least with no money yet. Clerkship is goal out of law school followed by biglaw firm for 2-5 years and then public service litigation with possible political career in mind.

  • Dave Killoran
    March 22, 2017 at 5:47pm

    Hi Mary,

    Thanks for the reply! I’m glad that your visit to BC went well–Boston is obviously a great town (by the way, I hear great things about St. Louis as well–I’ve had a number of friends spend time there who actually loved it). If this is down to BC vs WashU, the debt is so similar as to be non-determinative. It’s really down to which school you like better and which one you think will help you to perform as well as possible. Your first grades will be key to your job prospects, and thus you need an environment where you will do as well as possible.

    The alternative here is that if WashU was really an option, to go back to them and ask them to sweeten the offer to a number that you would fine irresistible (or, as they say in The Godfather, you want them to make you an offer that you can’t refuse :). However, I only recommend that approach if you know that there is such a number and that you would indeed attend–to me, honesty in negotiation is absolutely essential, and I would only open up a negotiation with WashU if there is a chance they could change your mind. And if they can, be clear about the number that it would take to do that.

    As far as BC, it’s interesting to me that they stood firm. Sometimes schools will do that, other times not. It depends on a lot of different factors, including your numbers and how their own applicant pool is shaping up. Thus, from year to year things will change, and that makes it very tough to predict how a school will act. Did you just send a letter to them about the debt? I ask because maybe it would be in your best interest to call them up and talk to the person who sent you your reply. A real live conversation can sometimes get a school to change their offer–hearing a person is so much different than reading a letter and impersonally replying to it. Perhaps you call them up, thank them so much for taking the time to reply, and let them know if they could just sweeten it a little–say $4K a year or sometime rather minor–you’d sign on the dotted line right then, you might be able to turn them over on this. And if not, what’s the harm? You can still tell them you love the school and want to attend.

    I get the sense you are leaning towards BC here, and given that the alternative is WashU, I think you are good there. The debt is very similar but BC has better prospects for what you seek.

    Please let me know if this helps. Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    March 22, 2017 at 7:07pm

    Hi Sonya,

    It’s extremely difficult to choose any school without having a lot of info upfront about the student 🙂 Your daughter certainly has some interesting choices, and the first step you should take is to determine the specifics of each school situation. In my response to Mary above, I made a debt/placement analysis for her schools, and that’s the first thing you should do as well: use the LST School Reports to determine debt and job prospects: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/. This puts things in a clear picture: what are the costs involved and how does the school do with job placement? For example, Chapman is ranked #134, and their job placement numbers are not that good, and so something like that requires more knowledge about your daughter, such as, what are her career goals? Is she getting a degree because she wants to be a judge? Or a big-time corporate attorney? Because Chapman isn’t great for those options. Or, is she looking to take a position at your family law firm? If so, then a full ride at Chapman might just be perfect.

    There are other questions out there too–such as the fact that three of those schools are in the Bay Area whereas Chapman is down in Orange County. Where you go to school can have an impact on where she plans to practice, and so we need to better understand her goals here. Basically, to provide advice that is maximally useful, we need to know a LOT more about your daughter 🙂

    Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    March 22, 2017 at 7:20pm

    Hi Lindsay,

    Thanks for the question! Your situation is so open-ended right now that’s it’s really difficult to provide any insights until some of the options become clearer. You have three schools that haven’t weighed in yet, and so those could be options, and if one gives you a good financial package, the debate might end right there 🙂 Same thing with the Wait List schools–I don’t know what your personal priority list is, and it could be that one of those schools is you dream, and so if you get admitted you might just take it.

    The starting point here should be for you to really work out where you want to go–the list of schools you applied to is quite wide-ranging, and I don’t get a sense from it what your interests or priorities are. so, you need to make sure you know where you really want to go, and why. The second step would be to break down the financials in the same way I did for Mary above. Third, isolate your career goals and compare them to the job placement info for each school. Narrow the field so you can see what really matters to you.

    As for the Oregon schools (and as a full disclaimer, my sister-in-law lives in Portland, I love Oregon in general, and on top of that I personally am a huge Ducks fan), it depends on whether you want to live and practice in Oregon after graduation. an Oregon degree will play well in the Pacific Northwest, but if you are going to DC or Philly or NYC, it drops off the table as far as recognition. So, the answer there depends very much on you and your goals. Thus, to provide any helpful info, I’d need a lot more info form you, and it also may be that we need to wait for more schools to give you firm answers and WL updates.

    Please let me know what you think. Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    March 22, 2017 at 11:58pm

    Hey Brooke,

    Thanks for the question. First off, congrats on all the acceptances–that is fantastic and gives you a great range of options! Second, I assume you mean a $135K scholarship at UVA, etc. Based on what you’ve mentioned, it would be very hard to turn down UVA to pay sticker at any school, even Columbia. Virginia is ranked 8th in the newest rankings and it’s a great school with no weaknesses (and trust me, as a Duke grad, it pains me deeply to say that about UVA 🙂

    Given the options and the fact that I’m generally debt-averse, I’d take the money, which would reduce it to Washington (and do you mean Washington University in St Louis, Washington + Lee, or even possibly the University of Washington? I’ve assumed it’s WashU in St. Louis but I should double-check) and UVA. Of UVA and WashU, if all else is equal, the extra $15K is worth it to me, and so I’d still be inclined to go Virginia.

    By the way, here’s the LST Report on Virginia: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/uva/. Very solid, and around 70% of grads end up at a large firm or in a federal clerkship, so right in your general pathway.

    Please let me know what you think. Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    March 23, 2017 at 12:03am

    Hey Dakota,

    Yes, you are exactly right–#15 UCLA and #30 GW won’t open the door to negotiating with #7 Penn. UCLA is obviously the closest, but the $30K total isn’t enough to make Penn feel like it’s competitive and something they’d need to match. So, you are probably in a position where what’s on the table is what you have to work with :/ I wish I could say something more insightful but basically comes down to how you feel here about the debt and the job prospects. This is now prestige vs lower debt, and there are going to be people who feel strongly on both sides of that debate. Sometimes I would say “what does your gut say here?” but instead I’m going to say: “After weighing all the factors, which seems like the safer path?”

  • Dov Levine
    March 27, 2017 at 3:41pm

    Hi!

    I was hoping you would be able to help me with my current situation. I currently have been accepted with full scholarships to Cardozo, U. Miami and St.John’s, as well has $30,000 off each year at Fordham Law School ($90,000 in total). I am also currently on the waitlist of Cornell and waiting to hear back from Boston U.

    I have narrowed down my options to Cardozo and Fordham, however, I am not sure if taking on debt is worth it if I can go for free to a pretty solid law school.

    My biggest concern is job placement, specifically if I would be able to get somewhat of a well paying job out of Cardozo if I don’t make the top 10%.

    I am also very concerned with coming out of law school with debt, especially if I can have the same sort of outcome at the lower-ranked Cardozo.

    In addition, do you believe I have any leverage on requesting more scholarship money from Fordham? And if so, how do you advise I should go about it?

    Please let me know what you think! Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    March 27, 2017 at 9:21pm

    Hi Dov,

    Thanks for the question! As a quick reference for you, earlier in this thread we had a Cardozo vs Fordham discussion, and you can find that here: http://blog.powerscore.com/lsat/scholarship-vs.-prestige-when-to-take-th…. The discussion and analysis there was a bit different since both choices resulted in some debt ($90K vs $195K, with that $90K being enough that it affected my recommendation, actually), but the basic idea–Fordham with more debt vs Cardozo with significantly less, is similar.

    In that situation, there were certain stated employment goals that made Fordham more attractive than usual (since both resulted in a lot of debt, the extra debt was less troublesome), so in reading that please keep that in mind. In your case, I’m inclined to agree with you–if it’s going to be basically free to go to Cardozo, that’s incredibly attractive. Law school debt is non-dischargeable, so you are stuck with it no matter what. Thus, I always tend towards debt-free outcomes whenever possible.

    Job outcomes here are obviously critical, and you should carefully peruse the LST Reports: See https://www.lstreports.com/schools/cardozo/jobs and https://www.lstreports.com/schools/fordham/jobs. Fordham has the edge, BUT is it worth going about $218K into debt for? I have a *very* hard to believing it is worth that.

    At the end you ask about negotiating with Fordham, and that’s a smart move that I fully support. I’m currently working on a short article about negotiating with law schools, but I don’t think it will be about for about two weeks. The bottom line is that you should try it here because there’s clearly a chance you’d go to Fordham if they offered you more money (and you should have that figure in mind when you write them–don’t be swayed because they offered you a little bit more; know beforehand exactly what number you think they need to reach to make it persuasive). I usually recommend negotiating by using offers from similar or more highly-ranked schools, but you don’t quite have that option here. So, be direct with them. Explain that Cardozo (and St. Johns, to make your case even stronger) has given you a full ride and that you find that attractive. Tell them that you prefer Fordham (assuming that’s the case), and ask not only for them to increase their offer but name a figure if you can. I’d think there’s a high chance they just sit tight here–while Cardozo is in the same area, Fordham is solidly higher in the USNews rankings than Cardozo (#36 vs #65, although neither school is in the top 50 according to the Above the Law rankings). Often when a school feels that the other school isn’t in their bracket they just ignore them and won’t negotiate. So that might happen here, but so what? Better to try it and see rather than wonder about it later. You unfortunately don’t have much leverage here (if Cornell had accepted you it would have been a card you could have played) so give it your best shot and see what happens.

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Dov
    March 28, 2017 at 2:47pm

    Thank you very much for all of your help!

    One last question I just have, when talking about specific employment goals and future plans. If BIGLAW is not a must for me, do the rankings of law schools still matter?

    I obviously want to have employment options and opportunities, and not only have to work in the public sector. But I’m just wondering if all this talk of rankings, prestige and connections matter most for BIGLAW

  • Dave Killoran
    March 28, 2017 at 3:46pm

    Hey Dov,

    No, the rankings reflect general assessments of a law school, and thus they tend to come into play for any job situation. For example, if Yale grad comes up against a Pepperdine grad, if all else is equal then the Yale grad will have an advantage. That’s just basic human nature I think, and more a reflection of that than the legal field itself.

    The Biglaw placements reflect not just the rankings but geographic location as well. But the same is true for clerkships and any highly desirable position. What it really comes down to is that law is a rather hierarchical field, and because of that the prestige of a school tends to be important. Are there exceptions? Certainly, and there are plenty of successful attorneys who didn’t go to a T14 school.

    Thanks!

  • Dakota Wild
    March 28, 2017 at 7:30pm

    Thanks so much for your response.
    A rather unexpected event developed over the last two days – Penn offered me $30,000 scholarship (total over 3 years) and I received about $75k in grants from them. I’m shocked and thrilled! I will still need to take on considerable debt to go there, but at least I won’t be paying sticker. This is a huge help. At this point, my choice seems like a no-brainer. My question to you is: Is there any point in trying to negotiate and squeeze a bit more out of them? As you know, I really don’t have comparable offers, but do you feel there’s harm in trying? Will I come off as ungrateful and too forward to ask for anything more? I’ll be going to their ASW this weekend and am considering stopping by their financial aid office… What do you think?

  • Dave Killoran
    March 28, 2017 at 8:01pm

    Hey Dakota,

    Congrats on that news–that is awesome! My first reaction was one with a small bit of concern, but once I heard that you’d be stopping by in person to make this pitch, those concerns went away. Doing it in person allows you to control and massage the message and convey it in a super-friendly, non-threatening way. As long as you do that, I’m all for it.

    One tip: I’d probably keep your request relatively small and try to be specific. A pitch along the lines of, “If you could increase the offer $4500 a year, it would position me to finalize my acceptance right now” is much easier for an admissions officer to process and approve than, “I am hoping to get a better aid package–what more can you do for me to put me in a position to enroll?”

    Good luck and please write back and let me know how it goes! I’d love to hear what you said adn how they responded. And, congrats once again 🙂

  • Mike M
    March 28, 2017 at 9:59pm

    Hey Dave,

    I’ve narrowed down to 5 schools and I’m not sure what I should do. I’m from Long Island and want to get into NYC big law.. at least that’s my plan for now. I also went to undergrad in florida so have interested in heading down south. My numbers are as follows:
    U Miami: 25k/yr +COL
    U of Florida: in state tuition + COL
    St John’s: 8k/yr + COL
    Cardozo: 18k/yr + COL
    Hofstra: Full Ride + COL

    Being in Florida would be awesome but I wouldn’t want to ruin my chances at a good NYC job. Also, how are big law jobs in Miami?

    Appreciate your opinion. Thanks

  • Dakota Wild
    March 28, 2017 at 10:23pm

    I will keep you updated! I will be nervous doing it in person, but yet I’m confident that I can deliver the message as you proposed, in a non-threatening, and friendly way. I can’t thank you enough for your responsiveness and advice – it has been extremely helpful. Thank you!

  • Dave Killoran
    March 28, 2017 at 11:04pm

    Hey Mike,

    Thanks for the message! Have you run the LST final debt/job analysis I’ve run in most of the threads here? Can you post that here–that’s always my starting point 🙂

    Thanks!

  • Brit J
    April 01, 2017 at 1:26am

    Hi Dave,

    I am struggling between three schools in particular-GW, William and Mary, and Uni of Maryland (the state I live). I have a big scholarship from W&M and a small one from Uni of MD, but nothing from GW. I want to practice family law in DC and MD. I am debt averse especially because I know I may not be making a lot of money practicing family law, but I also want to attend a school where I will be happy with my decision in the end. What are your thoughts? Thank you.

  • Dave Killoran
    April 01, 2017 at 6:25pm

    Hey Brit,

    Thanks for the question! Can yous tart by posting the debt/job/rankings analysis using the LST Reports/USNews/Above the Law in the style I used for I did Nikki and Dakota above? They look like this example:

    https://www.lstreports.com/schools/fordham/ — Non-discounted cost of $307K – $135K scholarship = $172K debt.

    Fordham: Employment score = 66.8% / Under Employment = 17.8%

    Fordham Rankings: USNews #36 ; ATL: unranked

    You always want to underpin your analysis using as many facts and details possible, and I need to see exactly what you mean by “big” and “small” scholarships before I can make any sort of informed comment 🙂

    Once you add in the financial details and post those, I’ll come back and share a few thoughts that will be specific to your situation.

    Thanks!

  • Roy
    April 03, 2017 at 3:40am

    Hey Dave,

    For the most part I have narrowed down my school list to three choices with statistics shown below (I say for the most part because I am waiting to here from UC Davis, which enough if awarded money I would highly consider).

    However, I have a deadline of April 7th to make a decision for Loyola in Chicago, which I am also highly considering. The three schools I am really considering are as follows with the reports for pricing with scholarships, employment scores, and rankings. By far Washington & Lee is the best school and they still offered as much (or more) in financial aid. They have the best job placement by far, especially in DC a region I would highly consider working in. The theme between all the schools I applied to is a Public Interest/Human Rights/Social Justice Program. Of these three Northeastern has by far the best program with my specific interest and I loved the school when I toured. Loyola is still a good program and I received the Civitas Child Law Fellowship (8 student cohort per class, with additional funding toward externships). Although Northeastern’s program I believe is overall better, I have already been pre-selected in a sense to be considered for many things at Loyola and I fear giving up such a fellowship would be a mistake. I have read your blog extensively and I am planning to ask Loyola to match the offer from Wash Lee and maybe that of Northeastern.

    Another large concern is place of living. I was interested in moving to a city (never lived in one) and Wash Lee is certainly not in a city. But I did undergrad at Virginia Tech and thrived as a student in that similar VA environment. I feel it isn’t what I want, but should I let geographic location make me forego the best school I’ve received a great package from?

    Is Wash Lee too good of a deal at a great school to pass up on? Is a highly competitive fellowship with connections and resources in my field of interest to good of a deal to pass up on?

    Loyola:
    Non-Discounted Price: $233.5K – $123K = $127K
    Employment Score: 51% Underemployment: 30%
    US News: 72 ATL: NA

    Northeastern:
    Non-Discounted Price: $240.5K – $139.5K = $101K
    Employment Score: 62% Underemployment: 24%
    US News: 82 ATL: NA

    Washington & Lee:
    Non-Discounted Price: $233.5K – $127.5K = $106K
    Employment Score: 74.5% Underemployment: 13%
    US News: 40 ATL: 25

    I would appreciate your thoughts,
    Thanks Roy!

  • Brit J
    April 03, 2017 at 5:05pm

    Hi Dave, thanks for responding. I put together the info. Again I would like to work possibly in family law and have the opportunity to work in the gov. in DC and MD.

    GW: *note I would be living at home
    Non-discounted cost of $308k
    GW: Employment score = 64% / Under Employment = 21.1%
    GW Rankings: USnews #30; ATL: #33

    William and Mary:
    Non-discounted cost of $184k – $75k scholarship = 109k debt
    W&M: Employment score= 66.3% / Under Employment = 35%
    W&M Rankings: USnews #41; ATL: #23

    University of Maryland:
    Non-discounted cost of $202k-8k scholarship= 194k
    GW: Employment score = 57.1% / Under Employment = 20.3%
    UMD Rankings: USnews #48; ATL: #33 Not ranked

  • Brooke
    April 04, 2017 at 12:11am

    Thanks, Dave. I actually wrote it wrong: It’s $35K/year at UVa, or $105K. Does that change your calculation? I would think not, but I’m interested to know if when the differential goes from $15K to $45K you would still go to UVA rather than WUSTL. Frankly, I’m having a hard time ignoring Columbia even at full freight. Is there ever a good reason to go for the highest ranked school just ’cause? Or if we’re not talking HYS, then they’re all about in the same boat? And, really, is WUSTL in the same boat? How about Cornell? Why is it ranked so low?

  • Dave Killoran
    April 04, 2017 at 12:34am

    Hey Brooke,

    $10K a year doesn’t affect too much to me here. That said, let me just say that given that you are feeling the pull of other schools at sticker price, you need to dive back down into all the at a and school info you have. this is not a decision you should make lightly, and you want to find a school that you love and that you will feel comfortable at! your first year grades will have a massive and determining effect on your chances for biglaw jobs and clerkships, so you want to start well. The best way to do that? To be a happy, healthy, comfortable student. So seek the school that is most likely to make that happen here.

    The article above, although not written by me, talks about the prestige factor. For me, prestige doesn’t help much if you have middling grades, and at good law schools that can easily happen–the competition is fierce. But regardless of your grades the debt you incur will be there after you finish, so I always prioritize what kind of hole each school leaves you in. Because it is just that–your law school debt is non-dischargeable and follows you until it is paid off. Sticker at Columbia is a hefty amount, and I personally would never pay it. But each person makes their own determination. I just want everyone here to know the facts before they dive in! so make sure you understand what the various costs are, and look at what kind of payment is required to service large debt loads. It can be eye-opening!

    That’s not to say I’m anti-Columbia; I’m not. It’s a killer school that opens many doors. for the students who go there, they walk away with a degree that’s speaks volumes. But at every school some people do great and some do not, and I always like to look at best and worst case outcomes. That ensures that you know the range of what could occur.

    Good luck with the decision and please let us know what you decide!!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 04, 2017 at 2:41am

    Hi Brit,

    Thanks for the reply! The first thing that jumps out at me is that if you are living at home for GW, then you won’t be paying $308K. I would carefully consider those costs and how much you’d save, because every dollar you don’t save is a dollar of debt you must pay off eventually.

    However, given the size of your scholarship at William & Mary, even living at home won’t bring GW down to that cost level. William & Mary is a great school, and you can see the USNews rankings support that and ATL actually puts it the highest ranked school (which means dollar for dollar they see it as the best of the 3). Given my own stated aversion to debt and your job preferences, debt management will be important and the costs here aren’t even close: W&M is $85K less than the next school (which is ranked lower!). So, I see nothing here that would sway me from William & Mary. At $109K it’s the best deal just on the numbers (that said, you have to determine if it’s the best deal or not for you and your personal preferences).

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 04, 2017 at 3:14am

    Hi Roy,

    Thanks for the question! I’m going to weigh in, but before I do so I’ll make a general request for anyone else to weigh in as well about the point I’ll raise, namely whether one should go to a better-regarded school or one that is lower-ranked but has a specialty program in your area of interest.

    My experience is that you should typically go with the better school. The specialty programs are nice, but law firms/judges/companies/governmental organizations all seem to look for the students with the best grades from the best schools. Specialty programs are considered a bonus, but they are window dressing of sorts–employers want the best lawyers, and they assume the best lawyers come from the better schools. So for me, W+L jumps right off the page as not only well-regarded across the board, but also priced basically the same as Northeastern. And, look at the W+L job numbers when they compare to the other two schools–it’s not even close. This is the better-regarded school with far better job outcomes, all at the same cost. Plus, on the personal side, I’ve sent several students who were friends there who loved it, so I have anecdotal experience about the school that is very positive.

    As far as location, I always say that it depends on the person. But, you’ve already thrived in a similar VA environment (your words!) and so you know that won’t be an issue. And you will have far better job options after graduating, and can then choose a city option (and, to be honest, you don’t want city distractions while in law school if you’ve never experienced them–you should be a study hermit while in school!).

    Last, my compliments to both Loyola and Northeastern here–they’ve made this a legit argument by doing what smaller schools need to do to compete against better ranked schools: specializing in interesting programs and creating programs that appeal to narrow but highly committed bands of users. I can’t give them enough compliments here for that and it’s a strategy I strongly endorse for other schools in similar positions.

    Ok, so I think I’ve stated my position here pretty clearly: aside from all the attractions and specialties elsewhere, I’d be all in on W+L given the job, cost, and prestige factors. However, you should seek alternate opinions. Ask some current law students and attorneys what they think about specialty programs and how they should be weighed vs overall job numbers and rankings. I’ll also tweet this out from my personal account (https://twitter.com/DaveKilloran) and see if anyone wants to add their thoughts. And if anyone else is reading, by all means add your thoughts if you have any!

    One more point: I’m a believer that the only opinion that counts is yours. If you feel like one of the other schools is the best call for you personally, then go with your gut. Only you know what will be best for you. Grades mean everything, and if another school puts you in the best spot to produce high grades, then it might be the better choice.

    Please let me know if this helps, and good luck with the decision. I’d love to know which way you decide to go so please post back along the way! Thanks!

  • Anna
    April 04, 2017 at 3:58pm

    Hi Dave,

    Thanks for your feedback on this topic!

    I am solidly focused on public interest and have so far gotten into Fordham ($135K), Cornell ($105K), Georgetown (waiting to hear), and Penn (waiting to hear).

    One thing that is making this decision difficult is the LRAP — on a visit to one of the schools, the director of financial aid told me not to bank on the LRAP being as good when I graduate as it is now. I suppose it has to do with the potential revocation of federal funding. That said, what does “not as good” mean? Is there a chance I may be left without any repayment help at all? I could maybe justify going to a school at sticker if I knew for certain that I would be able to make use of an LRAP.

    Another factor in assessing my options is getting a handle on public interest employment statistics from the different schools, since employment seems so heavily geared toward biglaw.

    Any insights you have would be greatly appreciated!

    Sincerely,
    Anna

  • Claire
    April 05, 2017 at 12:03am

    Hi Dave,

    I know you’ve dealt with scenarios very similar to mine, so I apologize if you feel that you’ve answered this question already.

    I was offered a full-ride by The University of Wisconsin Law School. I attended UW for undergrad, Wisconsin is my home state, and I think I want to practice in Milwaukee. I am 99% sure I will accept the offer. However, I am also accepted at Michigan (no scholarship), BU ($90,000 scholarship), and Notre Dame ($105,000 scholarship). My parents heavily favor Wisconsin, as they would like to see me graduate with no debt. That being said, neither of them are lawyers, and they know very little about competing in the legal field. I know several people currently in law school, and they INSIST that I would be a fool not to attend the very best school I get into. All of them suggest that the debt is nothing to worry about, because “a law degree from a top 10 school will pay the debt back tenfold.” I don’t know if they’re just drinking the kool-aid, or if they are actually pushing me in the right direction. Am I shutting doors on myself by going to a #30 school that would otherwise be wide open had I chosen #8?

    Thanks so much!I really appreciate your input.

    Claire

  • Dave Killoran
    April 05, 2017 at 12:35am

    Hi Anna,

    Thanks for the question! Unfortunately, in this case I don’t know the specifics of what the Director meant 🙁 I haven’t seen any reports to the effect that LRAP will be changed or eliminated, and so it could be a reference to *feared* changes in a lot of areas due to the current political administration. I seriously doubt you’d be left without any help at all though, and I don’t think the Director was trying to imply that (“not as good” is far different than “none”).

    As far as employment stats, I use LST Report (https://www.lstreports.com/schools/) and the ABA Standard 509 Disclosures (http://www.abarequireddisclosures.org/). Those both have a wealth of info!

    Please check those out and please let em know if they helps. Thanks!

  • Claire
    April 05, 2017 at 6:14pm

    Hi Dave,

    Just reminding you about my post above. I saw in an earlier comment that you recommend reposting in case you miss one! Thanks!

    Claire

  • Claire
    April 05, 2017 at 10:42pm

    I would also greatly appreciate your input to my above question, Nikki.

    Thanks!

  • Mike M
    April 05, 2017 at 10:57pm

    Hey Dave,

    Thanks for the response. below are the stats (not including cost of living because it is not an issue):

    U Miami Tuition non-discounted (150k) – 75k scholarship = 75k debt
    employment/unemployment scores 60.4/19.9

    Cardozo tuition non-discounted (168k) – 114k scholarship = 54k debt
    employment/unemployment scores 67.7/16.9

    St. Johns tuition non-discounted (165k) – 141k scholarship = 24k debt
    employment/unemployment scores 69.8/15.3

    Florida tuition non-discounted (67k) – 9k scholarship = 58k debt
    employment/unemployment scores 76.2/16.2

    Hofstra tuition non discounted 55k – full ride = no debt
    employment/unemployment scores 65.8/22.6

    Looking forward to your response, thanks

  • Dave Killoran
    April 05, 2017 at 10:59pm

    Hi Claire,

    Thanks for the reminder 🙂 I actually planned to add an answer today, so I hadn’t missed it. If you don’t see me reply to something for 5 or more days, then I’ve missed it. I almost always respond to things on the same day, but right now we are experiencing an extraordinarily high volume of questions above the LSAT and law school admissions, and it is slowly pushing me back.

    Nikki isn’t handling blog duties for us currently, so he will not be able to add in a response. Sorry about that!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 05, 2017 at 11:32pm

    Hi Claire,

    First off, as a native Minnesotan and lifelong Vikings/Twins/Gophers fan, let me apologize to you for your parents deciding to raise you in Wisconsin. That was cruel and unusual of them. You choosing to go to UW is all on you though 🙂

    All joking aside, you have the classic debt vs prestige argument you see all over these pages. Here’s what you should do: go look at the debt you would accrue–both via tuition/school costs and moving/living costs in Michigan–and then take a look at the monthly fee needed to service that debt. It’s a sobering number. Now, go to the UW number and consider that resulting monthly debt. It’s $0 or close to it. So, whatever decision you make here is going to have to result in it being worth the monthly payment of the first number. And it can’t be a hope–it has to be a guarantee. That takes us to a comparison of the relative position of the two schools.

    And here I don’t see that big number being justified. This isn’t #8 vs a 4th tier school; this is #8 vs #30. Wisconsin has an extremely well-regarded law school (not quite as high as Minnesota’s though 😉 and you will have solid prospects when you graduate.

    Second, let’s look at jobs and geography. If you were dead-set on a biglaw job in NYC and the school in question was Harvard or Columbia vs Wisconsin, then again I could see this debate being more intense. But you’re looking at Milwaukee and the other school in question is geographically proximate Michigan. Even if you moved to Chicago, both schools still play well in that market. So again I don’t see it being worth the money.

    Last, let’s talk about your friends who are basically insisting that you take on $273.5K in debt. Two questions: did they receive scholarships to their schools or not (in other words, did they make the same debt-laden choice) and if not, could this be a case of others wanting to pull you down into the same position since misery loves company? Because I can’t imagine a current law student isn’t at least aware of the fact that there is no such thing as a guaranteed outcome for any school. Sure, Harvard gives you a better chance at certain killer jobs, but there are students at Harvard who are finishing in the bottom half of class and aren’t finding it simple, easy, or guaranteed. An internet search should reveal lots of discussions about this exact issue, and it’s in no way commonly accepted that pay full ride at a top school is the obvious or right choice!

    The motivation of your parents may be monetary, but that doesn’t mean they are wrong. This is #30 vs #8–it’s close enough that I would stick with the feeling you seem to have that Wisconsin is the better choice (that actually means more than usual given my antipathy towards Wisconsin 🙂

    The only way I think you should consider changing your thoughts on this is if Michigan were to come up with a very attractive financial aid package, along the lines of more than 50%.

    Please let me know if this helps. Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 06, 2017 at 12:28am

    Hey Mike,

    Thanks so much for adding in this update! Just so everyone can see the rankings–which do matter since they reflect general perceptions–I’m going to add those in here:

    U Miami Tuition non-discounted (150k) – 75k scholarship = 75k debt
    employment/unemployment scores 60.4/19.9
    USNews: #77 ATL: Unranked

    Florida tuition non-discounted (67k) – 9k scholarship = 58k debt
    employment/unemployment scores 76.2/16.2
    USNews: #41 ATL: 30

    Cardozo tuition non-discounted (168k) – 114k scholarship = 54k debt
    employment/unemployment scores 67.7/16.9
    USNews: #65 ATL: Unranked

    St. Johns tuition non-discounted (165k) – 141k scholarship = 24k debt
    employment/unemployment scores 69.8/15.3
    USNews: #72 ATL: Unranked

    Hofstra tuition non discounted 55k – full ride = no debt
    employment/unemployment scores 65.8/22.6
    USNews: #118 ATL: Unranked

    In your earlier comment, you also said: “I’m from Long Island and want to get into NYC big law.. at least that’s my plan for now. I also went to undergrad in florida so have interested in heading down south…Being in Florida would be awesome but I wouldn’t want to ruin my chances at a good NYC job.”

    Ok, all of that together allows us to start making some evaluations. As usual, my disclaimer is that this assumes all else is equal, and that each school is a school you want to attend and would be a good place for you. Only you know the true answers there, so rely on your own judgment 🙂

    I grouped the two Florida schools together due to market proximity. In the case of Florida and Miami, that lower tuition makes Florida cheaper, and then you can see that their rankings are stronger. Importantly to me, Florida made the ATL Top 50 list, and I like their reliance on costs and job outcomes. So, between Florida and Miami, I’d choose Florida. I like Miami’s big city location–and better proximity to the small, tough, but growing Miami biglaw market–but it’s hard to beat better reputation and less debt.

    With the New York area schools, it would probably be St. Johns for me. I love Hofstra’s no debt outcome, but St. John’s is only $24K in total debt, and they are much more highly regarded overall (which is reflected in the rankings). I generally like Cardozo, and I know their big firm placement is slightly better than St. John’s, but overall job stats are a shade worse and it’s also $30K more than St. John’s.

    So, that reduces the field to Florida and St. Johns for me. Now you get into real decision problems based on where you want to practice and debt levels. Florida has the better reputation and ranking, but costs $34K more, and it’s miles away from that NYC market and so doesn’t do quite as well with big firm placement. I’d probably go Florida but it’s a coin toss. In NYC maybe the uniqueness of being a Florida grad gets you some passing interest vs being a grad of a local school they see tons of people from. I don’t like the higher cost but I do like the higher ATL ranking. Tough call.

    Please let me know what you think of that breakdown. Thanks!

  • Claire
    April 06, 2017 at 12:50am

    Hey Dave,

    Sorry for my lack of patience 🙂 I’ve been stressing out over this decision, and I was itching to get your input. You have been incredibly helpful, and I really value your opinion. Looks like gophers and badgers can get along after all! Who knew!

  • Mike M
    April 06, 2017 at 12:59am

    Hey Dave,

    Thanks for the feedback. I totally agree that it comes down to Florida and St. John’s. I definitely feel the 8k/yr is worth it over a Hofstra full ride. When it comes to UF, it’s a tough call just because of the NYC opportunities. The school itself and ranking is attractive. I’ll let you know what I decide! Thanks again!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 07, 2017 at 2:45am

    Hey Claire,

    No worries at all, I could tell your were anxious about it, and that is understandable. If you are still worried you are making the wrong decision, keep researching and talking to people. Talk to as many different people around the legal field as you can, including as many recent *grads* as possible (current law students too, although they are more prone towards confirmation bias). I rarely voice my opinion quite as strongly as I have here but then the decisions are often muddier, and don’t often involve a full ride with adjacent access to your practice market of choice 🙂

    Good luck with the decision and please let me know what you finally choose. Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 07, 2017 at 2:55am

    Agree 100%, it’s tough to turn down the ranking but if NYC is your target then it gets harder. I’m usually for taking the school with higher prestige when most everything else is close, but how that Florida degree plays in the northeast is not something I’m entirely certain about.

    According to LSTReports on the location of Florida grads (https://www.lstreports.com/schools/florida/jobs/location/), New York received 1.9% of 2015 Florida grads, which was tied for 2nd on the UF placement list (which, not surprisingly, was dominated by the state of Florida = 88.8%, then Georgia = 1.9% and NY = 1.9%). Problem is, 1.9% equals just 5 students, and so the sample is quite small. Thus, those relatively low numbers may have more to do with Florida grads wanting to stay in sunny Florida than with a lack of opportunities presented to grads of the school, but there’s no way for us to tell just from the numbers of grads there; we’d need to know how many tried to find employment in NY to have a better picture.

    Anyway, best of luck and please let me know what you decide. Thanks!

  • Mike M
    April 07, 2017 at 11:31pm

    Hey Dave… Penn State-University Park just got back to me and upped their offer to a full ride + $1,000 book stipend..What are your thoughts on this in comparison to my other options above?

    PSU-University Park
    US News Ranking: 82
    ATL Ranking: Unranked

    Employment Score: 53.1%
    Under-employment Score: 26.5%

    Thanks

  • Dave Killoran
    April 08, 2017 at 6:13pm

    Hey Mike,

    Congrats on the full ride! They would probably nose out St. Johns for me in the northeast, but it’s very close and I can see St. Johns being someone else’s choice. For me, I see Penn State as having an advantage since it’s free, and then also I know they’ve been working on those law schools, and have a stated commitment to making them better. When you can put state university system money behind a school, that can make a difference and hence I suspect in years to come their ranking will be even higher. Big drawback is employment right now.

  • Amy
    April 11, 2017 at 1:57am

    Hi Dave,

    Thanks so much for this blog and for the time and effort you’ve put into answering our questions. I have an interesting situation – it’s been somewhat mentioned here but not quite the same. My life is in nyc and so I’m only considering schools in the nyc area. That being said – I have narrowed my options down to Cardozo and Fordham (like a few of the others on this thread). Cardozo has offered me a full ride guaranteed for 3 years with no academic stips while Fordham has offered me a guaranteed $20k/year. I guess the interesting thing in my situation is that I have no other debt from undergrad or my Master’s (I attended on full rides) and I would be living in Manhattan, at home, with no rent payment. Is the $120k overall worth it for Fordham’s stronger reputation and alumni reach? (I say $120k because I’m calculating $36k/year plus other fees but no other payments since COL is free).

    I am not particularly interested in big law but I would like for it to be an option rather than not. It seems like Fordham has a higher reach in big law AND mid law, as well as federal clerkships. It’s a very conflicting situation — either Cardozo for absolutely free or Fordham for $120k over 3 years. I’m torn.

    Would appreciate ANY advice you could give me!

  • Breanne
    April 11, 2017 at 3:31pm

    Hi Dave,

    Thank you for all of the helpful information on this topic!

    I was offered a full-ride by The University of Minnesota Law School. However, I was also accepted at the University of Chicago Law School. The University of Chicago has offered me a scholarship of $10,000.00 per year, I have requested a scholarship review in hopes of having more assistance.

    I am from the Twin Cities Area and up until I attended the Admitted Students Weekend at UChicago I was very confident that I would attend the U of M. However, after visiting UChicago I can’t help but feel I would be missing out on a huge opportunity if I decide not to attend.

    As of now, I am interested in pursing a career in public interest, particularly in the field of education law/educational policy. One reason UChicago stands out is the location in Chicago, I would like to pursue an internship at the U.S. Department of Education, Office of Civil Rights, which has a field office in Chicago. Additionally, UChicago offers a generous summer funding program for public interest positions and a great LRAP.

    However, I know that I could change my mind after starting school and learning about different opportunities. I feel that UChicago offers the most flexibility and opportunity for being unsure about career choice as it is a nationally known school.

    All that being said graduating with $250K in debt is a bit hard to contemplate. I know that the U of M is also a great school and the opportunity to graduate almost debt free is very attractive. But almost everyone I have spoken to has expressed that I should go to UChicago, that the price is worth it in terms of opportunities as a student and future career choices.

    I would appreciate any general thoughts/opinions you may have on my situation! Thanks so much!

  • Sarah
    April 12, 2017 at 11:46am

    Hi Dave,

    Thank you for your help! My dilemma is between a full ride at NY Law (112) vs sticker price at University of Miami (77).

    NY Law: I’ll need to pay for cost of living. Also, I must qualify to renew scholarship each year.
    Miami: 150K plus cost of living

    I would be open to practice in NY or South Florida. I already have an MBA, so looking into corporate, but still not exactly sure what I want to do. I visited both schools and I was much more impressed with Miami’s program, but it’s not a top 50 school. I worry that NY Law doesn’t have the connections needed in NY and there’s a lot of competition in NY.

    I appreciate any insight you have! Thank you!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 13, 2017 at 12:18am

    Hi Amy,

    Thanks for the message! It’s funny how the Fordham vs Cardozo decision has come up quite a bit in the comments here but you can see why since it’s a tough one. If you compare the two schools, the overall employment numbers are similar (see https://www.lstreports.com/schools/cardozo/ and https://www.lstreports.com/schools/fordham/), but inside those numbers is where the difference appears. As you noted, Fordham places better in large firms and clerkships whereas Cardozo send more grads to smaller firms (which are often perceived as less desirable) and public service. As for whether you are interested in biglaw, I think you made the correct point that doesn’t matter because you want options, and “better” law schools tend to generate better job choices.

    When we start talking about schools, it’s easy for the money to get abstracted. that is, $120K doesn’t feel like anything significant because it’s just numbers on paper right now. So, the best thing I can think of for you is to look at the monthly costs and fees associated with that debt level, and for there make the determination if the extra opportunities at biglaw/clerkships is worth it. Imperfect but at least it gives you a definite sense of the money involved. Try these two:

    Michigan Law Debt Wiz Calculator: https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/debtwizard/Pages/Debt-Wizard-Calc…

    Washington Post Student Loan Debt Calculator: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/business/student-loan-debt-…

    I know it’s conflicting but perhaps that will tip you one way or the other. Good luck!!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 13, 2017 at 12:36am

    Hi Breanne,

    Thanks for the message! This is a tough one too. In this case you have a Top 25 law school in Minnesota that looks to be near free for you vs a Top 5 law school in Chicago, which has national and international recognition. I find decisions of this sort (good vs great) to be a real challenge, mainly because I know that if I were in your shoes I’d be facing the exact same mental arguments, and perhaps one even closer to you than you think since my whole family is from Minnesota and I graduated high school from the area (Minnetonka represent! 🙂 So, in this case, I feel like I understand all the non-personal factors in play very well but even with all that knowledge, I don’t have a clear answer for you.

    So, let’s reduce this down to what it really is: you’re paying $250K to go to a higher-ranked school. That’s pretty much the simple trade here, and it’s basically as if someone walked into your living room and said give me a check and instead of Minnesota you can go to UChicago. When I put it that way to you, does it change your outlook in any way? Do you suddenly think that maybe that’s a mistake? Or do you think to yourself that that sounds like a good deal, and it’s one you’d make every day of the week? How you respond there can tell you which way you are leaning so listen closely to your gut reaction.

    The other thing to do is to go look at exactly what $250K in debt looks like in monthly payments. Check out these two sites:

    Michigan Law Debt Wiz Calculator: https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/debtwizard/Pages/Debt-Wizard-Calc…

    Washington Post Student Loan Debt Calculator: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/business/student-loan-debt-…

    That will help give you a sense of whether this is a good decision for you. Obviously, Chicago gives you opportunities that you don’t see at a lot of schools, even Minnesota. But it’s a trade of opportunities for cash. For many students that works out well, but not for everyone so examine the options closely.

    Last, when other people see a high-level door open to someone else, the natural tendency is to tell that person to take the opportunity. Years ago, this wouldn’t have even been a conversation. But since the economic meltdown and the subsequent difficulties in the legal profession, this is not longer a slam-dunk yes to Chicago. So, that’s my way of saying that you should devalue what your friends say. Look at the facts instead as much as you can:)

    Please let me know what you think, and definitely let me know what you decide! Thanks and good luck!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 13, 2017 at 1:59am

    Hi Sarah,

    Thanks for the question! The first steps here are to run the full debt and job analysis you’ve seen me run with other schools in these comments, using LST Reports: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/. That will show you the exact costs associated with each school, and I tend to prefer the sum total of what is needed to attend a school as opposed to broad cost of living assignments (COL) because just saying COL takes away the reality of the dollars that must be paid back.

    Next, look at the jobs situation. This is where I think you get the second number that affects the decision-making process: employment (the first key number is straight costs/debt). NYLS has a number that has always concerned me, which is their employment score, which is under 50%. Miami isn’t fantastic, but it is better at 60.4%. I have real problems with schools under 50% because even though you are just paying COL, it’s still in the six figures in NYC, and you are going to need a job afterwards. The line is very narrow at NYLS, and basically your grades need to just be awesome. there’s no safety net there at all (to be fair, that’s true at every school, but it’s even moreso the case at NYLS if that makes sense). So, when I look at this, it’s hard for me to avoid saying that despite the higher cost, Miami is the better call. You of course have to weigh all the options and see how they affect your life, but on the face of it I lean towards Miami.

    By the way, the comment you made about environment is an important one to me. How you feel about where you are at is very important, and that comfort can make securing top grades easier (not easy, just easier :). The question to ask is: where do you envision yourself, and where do you see yourself performing well?

    Please let me know if the above helps. Thanks!

  • Chase
    April 13, 2017 at 2:13pm

    Hey Dave,

    Tough decision over here that has to be made by TOMORROW AT NOON. I’ve talked to so many different people from all backgrounds and walks of life, and there is no real consensus. Here’s hoping you can provide some insight!

    My two options:

    Harvard (with a 26K per year need-based grant. Total debt works out to about 189K)
    Penn (with Levy–faculty and alumni mentor, about 60K debt–for COL)

    Background on me: I’m drawn towards public interest/govt. work; however, I would say my end goal would be to work governmental relations for a corporation. The more I read about BigLaw, the more scared I get. I don’t want to spend the first ten years of my professional life, stuck in an 80 hr/week job, with no time to settle down and start a family. This is really important to me, and I’d take a much lower starting salary (than the 180K) in a smaller firm if it meant less hours/cutthroat/anxiety.

    I worry about Penn in terms of its geographic reach. I’m not sure where I’d like to practice, but would like to have Texas open as an option.

    Your thoughts? Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 13, 2017 at 9:23pm

    Hey Chase,

    Thanks for the message! First off, congrats on the amazing choice you have here. Both schools are fantastic, and to get money at Harvard is great but to also have no tuition at Penn is fabulous. There aren’t enough adjectives to describe how nice your position is here.

    There are two parts where I think I can provide assistance: the debt/job question and the geographic reach of Penn. Let’s start by referring to something you said, namely that: “The more I read about BigLaw, the more scared I get. I don’t want to spend the first ten years of my professional life, stuck in an 80 hr/week job, with no time to settle down and start a family. This is really important to me, and I’d take a much lower starting salary (than the 180K) in a smaller firm if it meant less hours/cutthroat/anxiety.” That comment jumped off the page at me because you are quite clear there that being bogged down by a lot of debt and having to take a BigLaw job that grinds the life out of you is NOT something you are at all interested in. It’s also really great that you already know that and can articulate it at this point in the process. Many students don’t realize that they feel this way until they are actually in one of those jobs, and ordering Chinese food at 11 PM while working in the office on a Saturday night. So, while $60K is still a significant amount of debt, with the employment prospects of Penn it is certainly manageable. And, actually, $189K is also manageable when you have Harvard on your resume. So either choice here would work out, but obviously when you are so clear about debt-avoidance (or really, BigLaw associate avoidance), that tends to tilt the decision towards Penn in my mind. I believe you also feel that way, and it’s why you raised the concern over Penn’s geographic influence.

    So let’s talk about Penn’s national reputation. Penn is a perennial T14 school (ranked #7 this year, as you surely know), and they are generally a well-known school nationally and internationally. Are they quite as well-recognized as Harvard or Stanford? No, they aren’t on that level. Those schools live in a special strata that includes the most famous universities in the world (like Oxford and Cambridge in England). Penn is one cut below those schools from a reputation standpoint. But still that is quite excellent. To analogize, it’s like saying that a player isn’t Michael Jordan. Ok, so the player isn’t the best in history but that doesn’t mean the player isn’t good. Maybe they are Charles Barkley or Kareem or Magic–still great in their own right. One way to see that is to examine the job placement of Penn grads (via LST Reports at https://www.lstreports.com/schools/penn/jobs/), where you can see that federal clerkships go to 10.6% of the class. Clerkships are prestigious and highly desirable, and 10% is an extraordinarily high figure (compare it to #15 Georgetown, for example, which sends 3.5% of its students to federal clerkship positions (which is actually a great number compared to most other schools, but is nowhere near the class of Penn). Second, where do Penn grads go to practice? Are they locally constrained and forced to stay in the area? No, they aren’t. Only 12.5% practice in Pennsylvania (compare that to a school like Minnesota that has 55% of its grads practicing in MN). Per LST, Penn’s geographic placement is as follows:

    NY: 48.8%
    PA: 12.5%
    DC: 9.6%
    Texas: 5.8%

    So, Texas is the fourth state on the placement list, and probably the figure could be higher if more Penn grads applied for Texas jobs. In other words, the school will play well in Texas, and you shouldn’t have any problems having a degree from there when seeking employment in TX.

    Bottom line is that if you want to avoid debt then you can safely choose Penn and feel good about it: it’s a great school with a strong national reputation, and because of that the grads do well in both quality of position as well as location. It’s a top 10 school, and given the lowered debt you’d leave with, it’s an incredibly attractive offer. If you instead choose Harvard, well, you’ve got Harvard on your resume and after that all you need to do is punch out some solid 1L grades and you’ll be set.

    Last, if you still can’t decide, put deposits down at both schools and buy yourself some time. It’s a totally practice, adn this decision is big enough that if you need more time, then it’s worth paying for. See http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/multiple_deposits/ for more info if needed.

    Please let me know if that helps, and please let me know what you decide to do!

  • Melissa
    April 15, 2017 at 12:32pm

    Hi Dave,

    Like many of the people in this thread, I have a difficult decision to make. The two options I’m considering are Vanderbilt and University of Michigan. At Vanderbilt, I have a scholarship of $27k/year, and at Michigan, I have a $20k/year scholarship. Both schools have similar tuition costs (Vanderbilt =$54k, Michigan =$58k). I don’t have a preference for where I will end up or what law I want to practice at this point; my priority is getting a job that I like (and that helps me pay off my debt!). I’d love to attend Michigan, but I’m a bit hesitant to take the debt on–I can’t quite figure out if the extra debt is worth it when the scholarship difference is $7k/year ($21k total) with Michigan tuition costing $4k more than Vanderbilt per year ($12k total). What insight can you give me that will put this into perspective? Thanks!

  • Jackson
    April 15, 2017 at 1:54pm

    Hey Dave,

    Thanks for all your advice on here. If you were in my shoes, would you take a full ride at Northwestern or accept near-sticker at UChicago or Columbia? I have deep roots in Chicago, and want to practice BL in C, NY, or DC. Thanks!

  • Dakota Wild
    April 15, 2017 at 6:20pm

    Hi Dave!

    I went to Penn’s ASW and met with the director of financial aid. You were 100% correct about being able to massage the message. He pretty well knew I had nothing competing with their award, but offered to try and tweak my package, and he did! It was very kind of him. I was a bit too nervous and awkward to ask for a specific amount of money (am going to need to work on that skill..), but he was able to increase my total award by about $7k. Woohoo!

    Thank you so much for your help and advice. I felt much more comfortable going into his office having heard your thoughts, and I wholly appreciate the time you took to help me. Thanks again!

  • Christine
    April 18, 2017 at 4:29pm

    Hello!

    I have been struggling with a very tough decision for a few days now, so I’m SO glad I stumbled across this blog!!

    So, first of all, some background: I live in Little Rock, AR, and my original intent to go to law school was to practice law in this area (kind of interested in getting involved in local politics; my ultimate goal is to eventually become a judge — but not exactly sure what kind of law I want to practice when I get out). I got accepted to the local law school here in downtown Little Rock, William H. Bowen School of Law, with almost a full-ride scholarship. I’m not even sure what they’re ranked, but it’s not in the top 100 — the benefit here is that I *think* this is where I want to practice, and I could get out of school with only maybe $10,000 or so in debt.

    However, I was also placed on the priority wait list at Emory (#22), and I went to visit the campus this past weekend. When speaking with the dean of admissions, he made it sound like I had a pretty good chance of getting in (they said they only didn’t admit one or two people from the priority wait list in recent years). If I do get the call that I’m admitted (which could be at any time), I will only have 48 hours to make my decision (!!!). Hence my anxiety about this.

    From visiting Emory law school and speaking to students/faculty, it is clear that this is a FAR superior law school than what I would have if I stayed at home, but I would most definitely come out of school with AT LEAST $100,000 in debt (if you combine the cost of tuition + the cost of moving and the cost of living in a new city), even with a decent scholarship (they typically don’t award more than half the cost of tuition, which is around $50K per year). The appeal here for me, I think, is that even though I am pretty sure I want to end up back in AR, I feel like I wouldn’t be limited to that if I got my education at a school that is recognized on the national level.

    The question I’m wrestling with is whether or not paying that much more for that superior education would be worth it? Do you think it would have the potential to open up more doors even here in Little Rock if I did return? Or is taking the money and going to school locally going to actually wind up establishing better connections for myself in the future?

    ALSO…not to complicate things further, but I also applied to Vanderbilt and am still waiting to hear back from them. Going to school there has always kind of been my dream, and it is a little bit closer to home (only about 4 hours instead of 8.5) — so if I got in there, even without a scholarship, I feel like that might be even harder to pass up. But I’m still faced with the same question: would it be worth it? And more importantly: am I completely stupid for passing on that kind of opportunity if I do decide to stay here in Little Rock?

    Thanks in advance!!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 18, 2017 at 9:54pm

    Hey Jackson,

    Thanks for the question, and thanks for letting me know this is helping! I’m fairly debt-averse, and a free ride at #10 ranked law school in the country is going to be hard to beat unless a higher-ranked school gives a free ride. So, if it were me, I’d take the money and run to Chicago 🙂

    By the way, congratulations on the incredible choices you have here. I know how hard it is to turn down names like UChicago and Columbia, so if you went that way it’s understandable. But regardless, congrats to you on submitting an obviously awesome application!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 18, 2017 at 10:37pm

    Hi Melissa,

    Thanks for the message! First off, while this may be a difficult choice, the nice thing is that you have two excellent options to select from, and so I don’t think you can make a bad decision here 🙂

    If we break down the numbers (excluding cost of living for now), then what you have told me so far reduces to the following:

    Vanderbilt: $54K a year – $27K scholarship = $27K/year = $81K over three years

    Michigan: $58K a year – $20K scholarship = $38K/year = $114K over three years

    So, as you clearly saw, those apparently small differences added up to a final $33K difference in tuition costs! Now, if we stop right there it looks like Vanderbilt has a significant edge. But Michigan is in Ann Arbor, a relatively small town, and Vanderbilt is in Nashville, a larger city (and an awesome one too, in case you’ve never been there). That makes a difference since the Cost of Living (COL) in Ann Arbor is generally less than Nashville. According to LST, it’s the following (includes books and living expenses):

    Nashville, TN Cost of Living: $24,910/yr = $74,730 total

    Ann Arbor, MI Cost of Living: $19,010/yr = $57,030 total

    That difference favors Ann Arbor by about $17.7K, and makes the final debt totals closer:

    Vanderbilt: Tuition $81K + COL $74,730 = $155,730

    Michigan: Tuition $114K + COL $57,030 = $171,030

    Thus, when COL is added in, the gap narrows to $15,300. That’s still significant, but much closer than before.

    Ok, now that we have a firm grasp of the numbers, the first consideration is for you to go look at some debt calculators (which you may have done, but I’ll repeat the advice here for the benefit of others). Check out:

    Michigan Law Debt Wiz Calculator: https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/debtwizard/Pages/Debt-Wizard-Calc… (which is extremely convenient since Michigan is one of the choices here)

    Washington Post Student Loan Debt Calculator: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/business/student-loan-debt-…

    Next, let’s look at the job outcomes at both schools to see if the extra $15.3K might be justifiable:

    *Vanderbilt*
    US News Ranking: 17
    ATL Ranking: 14

    Employment Score: 78.9%
    Under-employment Score: 13.5%

    Large Firm: 37.3%
    Small Firm: 4.3%
    Federal Clerkship: 9.7%
    Public Service: 11.9%

    *Michigan*
    US News Ranking: 8
    ATL Ranking: 13

    Employment Score: 85.0%
    Under-employment Score: 10.5%

    Large Firm: 50.8%
    Small Firm: 1.4%
    Federal Clerkship: 10.2%
    Public Service: 12.7%

    So, are those numbers enough to justify a slightly higher price tag? I think so. Overall employment results are better, especially at the more desirable large firm and clerkship jobs. Toss in some smaller but useful considerations (such as bar passage: Vandy 85.7% vs Michigan 93.7%) and I feel like there is a reasonable argument for thinking that Michigan is worth the extra $15.3K. That said, something you mentioned in your initial message also makes me feel that the extra money is warranted, mainly your comment that, “I’d love to attend Michigan.” So, that’s the school you want to go to, and since the costs are so close and the job outcomes are a bit better, I see no reason for you not to go ahead with it. If it is indeed the environment where you will be happiest, then that has an economic value since happy students typically perform better overall than unhappy or less happy students.

    So, to make a long story short, I think you have all the evidence and justification you need to support your desire to go to Michigan 🙂

    Please let me know what you decide to do–I’d love to know. Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 18, 2017 at 10:41pm

    Hey Dakota,

    That is *awesome* news! I’m so glad I was able to help. Now, we need to talk about my 10% agent’s fee, right? 😉

    I’m so happy that worked out for you, congratulations! And for everyone else reading, the lesson here is that it never hurts to ask. Just asking was worth $7000 here 🙂

  • Dave Killoran
    April 19, 2017 at 12:21am

    Hi Christine,

    Thanks for the message. Wow, having to make a major life-changing decision in only 48 hours is a tough spot to be in! So, knowing that you could be faced with that prospect, you need to do everything within your power right *now* to put all of the relevant information and decision-making tools at your finger tips. That way, when the time comes, you can move quickly and confidently to make the best decision for you. With that in mind, let’s talk about it.

    First, you need to assemble all of the financial information that you can, and be as detailed as possible. Start researching now what it would cost to live in Atlanta or Nashville (prepare for all outcomes, not just the most likely ones). Consider things like flights from those cities back home, or the cost of gas if you were to drive. Do that for each year and then multiply it out by three, for each year of law school. Get detailed! If you don’t have some of the info, ask. Put together a spreadsheet for each school and fill in every possible item. that way, instead of thinking that your debt would be at least 100K at Emory, you will be able to state the exact figure.

    Second, use some financial calculation tools to get a sense of what different debt levels look like. Here are two that you can start with, but there are others:

    Michigan Law Debt Wiz Calculator: https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/debtwizard/Pages/Debt-Wizard-Calc…

    Washington Post Student Loan Debt Calculator: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/business/student-loan-debt-…

    Put in different numbers to get a sense of monthly payments, how long it would take to pay off certain debt numbers, etc. This is an important step because it makes the debt real. It’s really easy in these conversations to toss number out like $53K or $181K and have them not feel real. A monthly debt service payment makes it feel a lot more real 🙂

    Ok, you should both of those things as soon as you can. Next, let’s place the schools in perspective by comparing them to each other. In that process I’ll use rankings from US News and Above the Law, and as much as I think rankings systems have natural flaws, they are useful because they reflect how other people perceive the schools.

    *Emory*
    USNews Rank: 22
    ATL Rank: 38

    *Vanderbilt*
    USNews Rank: 17
    ATL Rank: 14

    *Arkansas-Little Rock*
    USNews Rank: 134
    ATL Rank: Unranked (not in top 50)

    So, as you’ve noted, there’s a big difference in perceptions between Emory and Vandy vs UALR. You also sensed that when visiting Emory, since you said that “this is a FAR superior law school than what I would have if I stayed at home.”

    Next, as we will see, that rankings/perception difference has a significant impact on job prospects (all numbers drawn from LST Reports at https://www.lstreports.com/schools/):

    *Emory*
    USNews Rank: 22
    ATL Rank: 38

    Employment Score: 75.0%
    Under-employment score: 15.9%

    Large Firm: 26%
    Small Firm: 15.3%
    Federal Clerkship: 3.9%
    Public Service: 17.5%

    *Vanderbilt*
    USNews Rank: 17
    ATL Rank: 14

    Employment Score: 78.9%
    Under-employment score: 13.5%

    Large Firm : 37.3%
    Small Firm: 4.3%
    Federal Clerkship: 9.7%
    Public Service: 11.9%

    *Arkansas-Little Rock*
    USNews Rank: 134
    ATL Rank: Unranked (not in top 50)

    Employment Score: 44.4%
    Under-employment score: 23.8%

    Large Firm: 0.8%
    Small Firm: 22.2%
    Federal Clerkship: 0.8%
    Public Service: 23%

    I’m going to be honest: the Bowen numbers aren’t good. Not just a bit worse than Vandy or Emory, but a lot worse, and plain bad on their own without being compared to a T25 school. The one thing that gives me some pause is that their bar passage rate is 76.3%, which isn’t bad especially since the Arkansas bar is rumored to be somewhat harder than average.

    So then, one of your main questions was whether the extra debt is worth it. We don’t have the exact debt numbers so we can’t judge that yet, but from the above employment figures there is certainly a very reasonable chance that extra debt would indeed be worth it.

    The second main question you had involved your area of practice vs where you went to school. The general rule is that at a certain level, big names open doors no matter where you are. The Harvards of the world allow you to go to any city and be competitive. When we talk about Vanderbilt and Emory, we move down a step and one would say that both schools have more of a regional presence than a national presence. Of the two, Vanderbilt is closer to having a full-scale national presence than is Emory; Emory is decidedly more a southern region school than a national reputation school, but it is still well-known in legal circles. As a comparison, although the data was limited, only 22.2% of Vandy students stayed in Tennessee and 12.2% of students went to New York:

    • TN: 22.1%
    • NY: 12.2%
    • TX: 8.1%

    At Emory, 56.7% stayed in Georgia (much greater percent indicating stronger local ties as well as a stronger Atlanta legal market), and for New York it was also good, at 10.1%:

    • GA: 56.7%
    • NY: 10.1%
    • FL: 6.7%

    The numbers show the top 3 practice states for the grads of each school. The larger point is that both Emory and Vanderbilt are Top 25 schools with excellent reputations, and each has a strong enough reputation to allow their grads to go to the big legal arenas like NYC and compete for jobs. When you moved back to Little Rock, the reputation of each school will help you, and in many ways it might be worth it to have a degree from one of those schools as opposed to just being another UALR grad (as a reference, here are the Bowen numbers: AR: 71.2%; TX: 6.7%; MO: 2.9%. In other words, 4 out of 5 Bowen grads stay in the area, and thus they flood the market each year. One question here is do you want to be one of those many grads looking for a job or would you prefer to be coming in from out of town with a brighter, shinier degree? Who do you think looks more attractive to prospective employers?). Bottom line is that the fact that you hope to be in Little Rock is not a reason for you to automatically select Bowen. All else being equal, I’d personally take a degree from either Emory or Vandy vs Bowen as I think I’d prefer to stand out. And, of course, a Bowen degree basically limits you to Little Rock; a degree from Emory or Vanderbilt gives you many more options if something doesn’t open up for you in LR.

    The last thing I’ll suggest is for you to read all of the comments in this blog. In each case, the student has described the choice they are making, and then I reply and discuss the relevant factors. I want you to read each situation because it will help you see the types of choices and considerations other students faced, and it will also allow you to see the way I prioritized each factor. For example, I tend to be very debt-averse, but I’ll let better job prospects outweigh debt in certain cases. But, if the schools are fairly similar, then I’ll almost always go for the money (example, full ride at Northwestern vs full tuition at Chicago; I take Northwestern since it’s a top school and you graduate with no debt). In your case, the schools in play are very different, especially in the employment results. While I can’t see your final debt numbers, I can take a guess at them and I have a strong suspicion that if I were in your shoes I’d be leaning towards Emory/Vanderbilt.

    Ok, that’s a long post but it’s important for you to run the numbers here and think about this choice very carefully, and to do so as quickly as possible. Please let me know what you think, and good luck!

  • Taylor
    April 19, 2017 at 5:50pm

    Dave,

    Thanks so much for all your input into everyone’s predicaments. Here is mine:

    I’ve been accepted at UC Berkeley, UVA, GW, and BYU (all without scholarship, except for a small one at BYU). I’ve pretty much ruled out Berkeley and GW based on where I want to end up, where I think I’ll thrive, etc. and have narrowed it down to UVA and BYU. I am LDS (Mormon), so I know the kind of social environment I’d be signing up for at BYU and I’m okay with that. I’m also married with a 1 year-old, so we are taking that into account when looking at location, cost of living, etc. What I’m most concerned about is opportunity and debt. Below is what I’ve gathered based on the LST reports (not taking into account interest accrued over time).

    UVA
    No scholarship + $60,000 total cost of living = approx. $231,000 total debt
    Employment/underemployment scores: 84.5/12
    USNews Rank: 8
    ATL Rank: 6

    BYU
    $12,310 per year – 1/4 scholarship per year + $60,000 total cost of living = approx. $88,000 total debt
    Employment/underemployment scores: 55.6/27.8
    USNews Rank: 46
    ATL Rank: 40

    Cost of living in Provo and Charlottesville is comparable, so it’s not necessarily a large factor. However, it does help put things into perspective when looking at total debt.

    As far as career aspirations go, I am shooting for a federal clerkship and then biglaw for a few years in either NY or DC. I’m not completely sure what I’d like to do after that point, but I want to leave as many doors open as possible, especially since I’m interested in politics, government work, etc. BYU has a great alumni network, with connections all over the country, but I don’t know if it will be enough for me to land the jobs and experience I want. I’d definitely need to be in the top 10%, which may be difficult considering how competitive of an environment BYU law is. UVA, on the other hand, seems to be ideal for my career aspirations but I’m worried about going into that much debt.

    A lot of the advice I have been getting is from BYU alum and other Mormons. Most seem to say that unless one gets into HYS, they should go to BYU. I’m not so sure. That being said, I am very interested in hearing you weigh in on the matter! Thank you for your time.

  • Dave Killoran
    April 19, 2017 at 10:29pm

    Hi Taylor,

    Thanks for the question! This is a challenging decision, and I tend to think that no matter what you decide you’ll have some uncertainties over whether it was the right decision, and that is because there are positives on both sides here.

    While reading what you wrote, there were two things that jumped out at me, and the first was your statement that “I am shooting for a federal clerkship and then biglaw for a few years in either NY or DC.” If that was the only consideration, then obviously UVA would be the better choice as shown by large firm/clerkships percentages: UVA = 54.5%/15.8% vs BYU = 7.5%/2.3%. That’s 70% vs 10%, or a 7 times better chance at the path you seek at UVA. Basically, the two schools are on different planets as far as job placement, which is to be expected when one of them is a T10 school. I realize that BYU has a strong alumni network (and one that tends to have stronger personal relationships than many others), but it can’t compete with the sheer power of the UVA name.

    So, based on the above it would seem that I am advocating for UVA. But then the second consideration comes in, which your friends nicely summed up by saying, “unless one gets into HYS, they should go to BYU.” This is a saying you hear with some frequency, and the reason it is so popular is that there’s a degree of truth to it. The HYS schools are like the superpowers of the law school universe, and offer a name that opens doors no matter where you go. UVA, while outstanding, is a cut below those schools (maybe two cuts if you look at the CCN trio as its own level). You are rightly concerned about going into $231K of debt, and I personally have a hard time justifying taking that on. That is especially the case since BYU is generally considered one of the best deals in the law school world — a well-regarded school at a relatively reasonable price.

    So, that probably didn’t help much 🙂 I think that given your background and comfort with Provo and the BYU school environment, I’d probably say avoid the massive debt and go with BYU. It’s a very good school and the price is very nice. But I understand the siren call of a top-ranked school like UVA, and in one sense you are directly lowering your chances of obtaining the career path you seek if you choose BYU. Interestingly enough, in this case we can quantify that trade, as those improved job outcomes cost exactly $143,000 more. Is that too much to bear? I can’t say, but I would urge you to use something like the Michigan Law Debt Wiz Calculator: https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/debtwizard/Pages/Debt-Wizard-Calc… to get a sense of how that extra $143K affects monthly payments.

    Just as an aside, a decision like this has elements of game theory behind it, but one way to look at this is that UVA offers a wider array of outcomes, including both good and bad results. The potential job outcomes are seemingly better on the top end, but if things didn’t go well the debt load could result in some very negative results. BYU, on the other hand, could be characterized as resulting in a narrower set of outcomes, with few potential bad outcomes but also fewer topline results. You could consider this the choice of locking in a more reliable set of middle-range outcomes (and again, this is generalizing; you could go to BYU and have a result that is the best possible one for you) vs a more risk-taking approach that increases the possibilities at both ends. If it helps, you should consider what type of person and risk-taker you are—does one of those two characterizations immediately feel more comfortable to you?

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Christine
    April 20, 2017 at 6:46pm

    Hi, Dave!

    Thanks so much for your detailed & well-researched response! I really appreciate the amount of time and effort you put into giving everyone a personalized answer.

    I am in the process of making the spreadsheet — it’s definitely helping to see everything laid out next to each other. I also checked out the debt calculators, and wow, you weren’t kidding. Seeing the amount of money my future self will have to pay back (and how much money I’ll have to make to be able to afford it) is sobering, to say the least!

    Though I still have A LOT to think about, I *think* I am still leaning towards taking the offer from Emory or Vanderbilt if I get the chance. Despite the money, it really seems like the kind of opportunity that I would regret not taking.

    Thanks again for all of your advice — this has been a HUGE help for me!

  • Dakota Wild
    April 20, 2017 at 7:58pm

    Can I get you that 10% agent’s fee when I get a job in 3 years? 🙂

    Really though, one 15 minute conversation and an email equated to $7k. I’d say that’s the highest “pay rate” I’ve ever made 🙂

    (ok, ok, I didn’t get paid so much as I got discounted, but still! $7k in 15 minutes, is fine. by. me.!)

  • Dave Killoran
    April 21, 2017 at 12:47am

    Hey Dakota,

    Ok, it’s a deal (but I want interest too, lol!). Seriously though, I’m really pleased for you that this all worked out, and it’s a great example of how sometimes if you just give it a shot, it can pay big dividends. As they say, it never hurts to ask.

    Congrats again, and best of luck to you as you move forward!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 21, 2017 at 12:56am

    Hi Christine,

    Thanks for letting me know this helped you! That’s why I do this and enjoy it so much.

    I’m really glad to hear you are going through all the expenses and looking carefully at each option. When the time comes, that will give you confidence to make the best choice for yourself.

    Please let me know how things play out–I’m really interested to see where you finally end up. Thanks and good luck!

  • Alex
    April 21, 2017 at 7:41pm

    Hi! I currently have a full ride offer at Case Western law school, a sticker price offer at UCONN and am waitlisted at Boulder, UMD, Northeastern, and Temple. I really want to go into either public policy or corporate BIGLAW once I graduate and I was wondering if I’m not too thrilled about my options would I be better off taking the full to case and try to transfer out if I don’t like it or wait a year and retake the LSAT.

  • Dave Killoran
    April 22, 2017 at 12:02am

    Hey Alex,

    Interesting set of choices! Would you mind breaking down each school’s ranking/finances/employment numbers in the manner I’ve done above? That’s where we start with every discussion simply so the numbers are as clear as possible to you. Here are the links we use to obtain the info:

    https://www.lstreports.com/schools

    https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings

    http://abovethelaw.com/careers/2016-law-school-rankings/

    And here’s an example of how it looks for one sample school:

    Florida
    Tuition non-discounted (67k) – 9k scholarship = 58k debt
    employment/unemployment scores 76.2/16.2
    USNews: #41 ATL: 30

    I’ll sometimes go deeper if there are specific practice states or job types in play, and since you mentioned biglaw, if you could, add in the job type percentages from LST Reports (such as Large Firm, Small Firm, Fed Clerkship percentage, etc) as so:

    Large Firm 11.2%
    Small Firm 27.4%
    Federal Clerkship 2.6%
    Public Service 16.2%

    Once you have that info posted, I have a feeling we’ll start to see some of the choices rise to the top and others fall–such as the full ride at Case will knock out UConn pretty easily 🙂 I keep a close eye on this blog, so when I see you post back, I’ll come back in as quickly as I can and provide some further thoughts on the school choices.

    Ok, while we wait for that, let’s talk transferring. Here’s my basic rule for transferring: There’s no guarantees when it comes to transferring, so don’t attend a school unless you’d be happy graduating from the school. That said, the reason there are no guarantees is because your ability to transfer will rest on your first year grades and the quality of the school you are transferring from. The grades are huge, and that can be a challenge because the typical 1L law school grade is derived solely from the final. So, nail the final and doors start to open up. But if you have one bad day or exam, then it’s over. And law school is so unusual that even if you’ve been a great student your whole life there is no guarantee that that will continue in law school.

    Now, let’s say you go out and do quite well, and your class rank is high. From there, it depend son how high your rank is as well as the school you attend. In general, the rule is that the better the school, the more room you have with your grades. For example, if you were trying to transfer to #10 Duke, if you were coming from #23 Minnesota you could transfer over with slightly lower grades than if you were coming from #51 Baylor. In other words, the lower ranked your starting school is, the higher your grades need to be. And, past evidence shows that at a certain point, the top schools stop taking students. For example, Harvard just doesn’t take transfer students from the bottom tier of law schools. However, when you slide down the rankings scale, it loosens up. So, when you talk about transferring up, we have to consider not just grades but that starting school as well (that said, Case would allow you to transfer into the T14, maybe even higher if you absolutely killed it on the grades).

    Last note, if you transferred out of Case, you lose the scholarship at that point. You probably know that, but it’s worth mentioning here for others.

    Thanks and I look forward to hearing back from you!

  • Brooke
    April 24, 2017 at 11:46pm

    OK. Pulled the trigger. Selected Columbia. When faced with my UVA offer and promised my enrollment, they came up with $22,000, about 60% of what UVA offered. I totally get the economics of a loan that I will carry with me, but I am also cognizant of loan forgiveness at Columbia. And, I want my degree to speak “volumes,” as you say. It’s going to be with me for my whole career, and I just think I’ll be prouder of having gone and hopefully not done too shabbily at a school such as Columbia Law. So, I’m pleased with my choice. I think if Columbia had come up empty-handed, it would have been much harder.

  • Brit J
    April 26, 2017 at 7:39pm

    Hi Dave,

    Thanks for your advice. I have a little more information now as I am still deciding and GW added a small scholarship. I am just between GW and W&M now. How accurate are the cost from the lstreports site? I ask because I did my own calculations using the estimate cost from both schools and here is what I got:

    GW: School est. COA= $85,900/yr
    My est. COA= 70,500/yr -8,000 (scholly) – 7,000 (grant)= $55,500/yr
    My breakdown:
    1,500 books and supplies
    3,000 personal expenses
    6,000 room + board (living at home and maybe helping out a little)
    2,000 transportation
    58,000 tuition

    Est debt. $167,000. I have not factored in working during the summer and possibly breaks.

    W&M: School est. COA= $60,700/yr
    My est. COA= 60,500/yr – 25,000 (scholly) = $35,500/yr
    My breakdown:
    1,500 books and supplies
    5,000 personal expenses and transportation (traveling home some weekends or moving)
    12,000 room + board (through summer)
    42,000 tuition

    Est debt. $106,500.

    I would like to attend GW and I think I could figure out a way to make that work. I guess my question is would it be worth it to choose GW over W&M?

    Thanks for your input Dave.

  • Dave Killoran
    April 27, 2017 at 12:17am

    Hi Brit,

    I think this comes down to how you feel about it, and on that count I believe you know what you really want. Since regardless of the choice you make you will be going into six figure debt, I believe that if you want to go to GW then I think you should go with that decision. Part of my reasoning is that you’ll probably perform better there since people tend to do better in environments they like and enjoy.

    One other thought: there is only a certain point up to which anything I say is valid because my analysis is all numbers driven. But, I’m not the one going to law school and the whole process is really a human one 🙂 You are the one going, and only you know what is best for you! So, if you’ve looked through the numbers and feel comfortable with what you have (and I see no reason to doubt the accuracy of what you posted) and your conclusion is GW, I’m fine with that and see no reason for you to try to force yourself into wanting to go to W&M.

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks and congratulations!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 27, 2017 at 12:35am

    Hi Brooke,

    That’s great that they came up with some money–it just goes to show that you should ALWAYS try to negotiate with a school if you have even one other good offer. And, of course, congratulations on attending Columbia! It is obviously an amazing school and you can’t go wrong with a degree from there. I’m so pleased that things worked out for you 🙂

    Thanks for letting me know which way you went, and again, congrats to you!!

  • Hilary Leighty
    May 02, 2017 at 1:31am

    Hi Dave-

    I would love to hear your opinion on my situation:

    I am currently waitlisted at Wake Forest and Emory and have a full ride offer from Indiana McKinney. I am from Indiana and comfortable working in the area after graduation.

    Assuming if I get off either waitlist that I am not offered $$, do you think either choice is worth sticker as opposed to a full ride at McKinney?

    Also, thanks so much for the power score books! I don’t think I would have a full ride offer without them!

  • Mike M
    May 02, 2017 at 1:50am

    Hey Dave,

    Just an update on my situation… FSU got back to me and I’m accepted with a 13.5k scholarship/yr which would make it 20,000 debt over 3 yrs.. besides this.. still considering St. Johns and UF… thoughts?…thanks

    Florida tuition non-discounted (67k) – 9k scholarship = 58k debt
    employment/unemployment scores 76.2/16.2
    USNews: #41 ATL: 30

    St. Johns tuition non-discounted (165k) – 141k scholarship = 24k debt
    employment/unemployment scores 69.8/15.3
    USNews: #72 ATL: Unranked

    Florida State tuition non discounted (61.5k) – 40.5k scholarship = 21k debt
    employment/unemployment score 71.4/8.3
    USNews Ranking #48 ATL: 37

  • Dave Killoran
    May 04, 2017 at 4:20pm

    Just an fyi to everyone who has asked a question here–I have some current schedule conflicts and so I won’t be able to reply for several days. But I will reply to everyone 🙂

  • Dave Killoran
    May 04, 2017 at 4:20pm

    Just an fyi to everyone who has asked a question here–I have some current schedule conflicts and so I won’t be able to reply for several days. But I will reply to everyone 🙂

  • Drew
    May 07, 2017 at 5:22pm

    Hi, Dave! I would greatly appreciate your advice on my law school circumstances:

    I am currently in the Southeastern Michigan/Detroit area, and I plan on staying in the area, as I have strong local ties. Moreover, I do NOT have lofty aspirations for after law school (no clerkships, not interested in big law, etc.). I currently have a full ride to Wayne State University Law School (ranked #100 according to US News) and a partial scholarship ($15,000) to the University of Michigan (ranked #8 according to US News). Michigan’s tuition is $55,000 ($40,000 with my scholarship), and I estimate $3,000 per year for books, parking, and other expenses. And because I have a full ride at Wayne State, I estimate only $1,000-$2,000 for books and other expenses.

    I received my undergraduate degree at U of M, Ann Arbor, where I was greatly intimidated and made anxious by the extremely competitive environment. However, I graduated in the top 3%, so I know I can handle it. I am also currently in debt from my time there.

    I would love to hear your take on whether I should go to a Top 10 school or go to a moderately respected regional school–Wayne has the largest legal alumni base in Michigan, as only 11% of U of M Law grads stay in Michigan. Furthermore, as I understand, going to a national school (U of M) prepares you to go out of state and obtain jobs in big law areas (DC, Chicago, NY), whereas, if you attend a regional school, it might prepare you more generally for practice in the state in which you attend law school. Should I throw away a huge opportunity to attend a Top 10 school, and the probability of getting an overall better job in MI (but end up close to $180,000 in debt with interest) or attend a regional school, debt-free, with possibly no good job prospects?

    Finally, if I attend U of M, I will start in summer (June), causing me to graduate in December. What are your thoughts on this as far as bar prep and jobs go? Thank you!

  • Dave Killoran
    May 14, 2017 at 11:20pm

    Hi Drew,

    Thanks for the question! Well, this is more or less the quintessential question behind the blog title here: should you go for the free ride at a lower-ranked school or go into debt for the prestige of a highly ranked name? The answer for each person is different, and as I’ve spoken with all the students in this comments section I’ve found that each person has slightly different ways that they value and analyze the elements in play. Nobody likes debt, and if you’ve read the other discussions you’ve seen me repeatedly recommend that applicants considering going into debt should look at the repayment schedules and truly understand what $150K-$250K of debt looks like on a monthly basis. It can be significant and overwhelming, but you have to face the reality of the financial consequence of choosing that path. For some students the answer is that it’s too risky but for many others it’s not. I know that going to the debt-free school represents a safer pathway in a financial sense, because we can see a black and white difference in the monetary obligations that those individuals bear upon graduation. But it also often represents a demonstrably lower chance of securing the so called elite jobs in big firms and clerking for judges. This is where your goals and aspirations really do play a major role. For example, do you want to be a law professor? Then your chances increase more as the rank increases at the school you attend. In your case, I don’t get the biglaw/clerkship pathway as being something you have your heart set on. Will Michigan give you a better shot at any job compared to Wayne? Yeah, to be honest it will, and that goes even for those in-state jobs. Plus, so many of those Michigan grads leave the state because they can; the name gives them the clout to do so (and it also pulls in many more people form out of state than Wayne, which is also why they leave upon graduation).

    I think your decision needs to be driven by your comfort with these schools. Which one do you think will make you happier? Both will be competitive–just because Wayne is ranked lower doesn’t mean that there won’t be pressure in class to perform or on the exams to ace them–but if you feel Wayne is more to your liking, then you get a free education at a school you like. I don’t know you well enough to really contribute to this decision (I wish I did–it would be easier, right? 🙂 This decision has to be driven by deep introspection on your part about what you want out of law school and what you are willing to pay for the experience. Ask yourself how you feel about those monthly payments, and how you would feel about passing up the big name school. Talk to the people who know you best and ask their opinion. they can’t decide for you, but maybe they’ll help you best understand your personal values and how those relate to the costs involved here.

    Please let me knwo if that helps, and good luck–I’d love to know what you ultimately decide!

  • Dave Killoran
    May 15, 2017 at 3:36pm

    Hi Mike,

    My apologies for not replying earlier. Between St. Johns and FSU you have two good options in the two geographic areas that interest you. I’d personally go with FSU because it has a higher rank and is slightly less, but given the relative similarity of the two, I think it more depends on where you want to live for law school as well as your practice location targets. Either way, your choices are solid and you are in a strong position. Congrats!

  • Dave Killoran
    May 15, 2017 at 3:40pm

    Hi Hilary,

    I’m very debt averse, so I don’t think either Wake or Emory would be able to compete with the full ride. I kind of get the feeling you feel the same way, and a free education is just really hard to ignore. Usually it takes a very big name to overcome that debt burden, and we don’t have that here.

    I’m glad the books helped–thanks for letting me know!

  • Claire Lee
    May 16, 2017 at 1:03pm

    Hi Dave,
    I am in a very tough situation right now deciding between two schools. Both are not in the top tier, but it is between Florida State University ranked from upper 40 to lower 50 and Louisiana State University ranked upper 80 to low 90.
    I am from Tampa and am currently working at a personal injury firm so I have made some ties with attorneys this way. I attended University of Florida for my undergrad and was not very dedicated coming out with a lower but not terrible GPA, but worked really hard and made a very good LSAT score.
    I have been offered full tuition for LSU(out of state tuition) and 50% at FSU(in state tuition). This would be about a 30k difference in loans that I would be taking out, as I am not using any of my savings to finance rent, living expenses etc(although rent, gas and other expenses are cheaper in LA). Although I am lucky and have no debt from undergrad, I also do not have a very extensive savings. I was accepted off of the waitlist for FSU so I was unsuccessful when I tried to negotiate into getting offered more of a scholarship.
    I am interested in pursuing family or disability rights law, but am not positive where I will end up practicing as my husband is still in school at LSU as an engineer and can be placed anywhere. I have looked into the civil law that LSU teaches and have found that I could avoid most civil law courses and stick to common law. Both have family law clinics that I could be apart of and other organizations that would allow me to get involved in family law. I also have ties with a family judge in Baton Rouge so would have connections for internships etc, but would be interested in coming back to FL for the summers to possibly intern so I would also have ties there in case I was wanting to come back to FL to practice when I graduated.
    What is your opinion on choosing the full ride vs. 10k a year for a school ranked just a little higher but not top tier.

  • Claire Lee
    May 16, 2017 at 1:31pm

    I would also like to add I don’t have any big lofty goals after graduation,I do not want to be a law professor, or go into big law or clerkships, I would just like to work at a private firm working with family law as I studied family, youth and community sciences for undergrad. I have possibly thought about wanting to become a judge or having a goal to reach for after practicing for a little while.

    Also as I mentioned my husband that leaves the possibility of moving to Texas, Louisiana, or other big engineering states but also the possibility of just staying in FL if a good enough job presents itself to him, so state does not matter. Although I am born and raised in FL and my family is located in Tampa, so I do enjoy staying here.

  • Dave Killoran
    May 16, 2017 at 5:39pm

    Hey Claire,

    Thanks for the question! That’s an interesting situation you are in and the good news is that I think either choice would work just fine, so I don’t think you can go wrong with here 🙂

    First, as far as practice and alumni, I think LSU would be just as good as FSU for what you want to do and the connections you have made. Yes, FSU will have a deeper alumni base that could be of assistance in Florida, but it sounds like you are already on your way as far as knowing attorneys and making certain connections. Then, since it may be that you end up in Louisiana or even on the other side in Texas, LSU has its advantages as well. So overall, it’s somewhat of a wash for me with the alumni bases.

    And so it comes down to the classic “money vs a higher ranking” battle. Personally I believe I would take the money since it is tangible–you know you won’t be graduating with the same debt that you’d incur via FSU, and that has an actual value because you don’t start out in a hole. Yes, FSU has a better ranking, but it’s not really all that much better, and given the vagaries of rankings it could very well be that FSU falls and LSU rises in the next few years (or, honestly, the reverse could occur–that’s the problem with rankings. LSU was #72 in 2014 then tumbled to #94 and then moved back up to #82 in 2016 before going down to #96 this year).

    I guess for me LSU is close enough to Florida and family so that the money becomes extremely appealing, and enough in my opinion to offset the better rank that FSU currently sports. However, if you disagreed I could easily understand that since this is all about personal preferences!

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Claire Lee
    May 16, 2017 at 5:57pm

    Thanks Dave! that is very helpful, this is personal not facts but its hard to go against what my parents believe is right after they have supported you your whole life, but I am financing this so it is my own decision.

    My other questions is since I am from Florida and there is a large possibility this is where I would end up also, do you believe in going where you think you will practice, especially since FL bar is so difficult? Or do you think this is not as big of a deal?

  • tim Allen
    May 24, 2017 at 8:48pm

    Hi Dave,

    Thank you so much for all your help. I got into GW law with 20k per year. I am really excited about GW, however, should I be concerned about their rankings drop as of late, from #20 to #30 in the last couple of years? Would this drop have an impact on employers decisions in respect to GW law graduates? And also what is your overall view of GW as a law school? Thank you for you time!

  • Dave Killoran
    May 24, 2017 at 10:50pm

    Hi Tim,

    I like GW a lot, and I like DC even more, especially as a city to learn law in. So, I think it is a great combination and you should enjoy yourself there!

    I wouldn’t worry about the rankings movement. This is natural, and if you study what happens, at times schools have fallen and then risen, as well as the reverse. A school like GW knows how important the rankings are, and it won’t be lost on them that they need to get back up there, and they’ll put in the resources to make that happen. So I expect to see movement the other way soon enough.

    It also won’t affect employers at this point. Yes, if they keep falling it will be and issue, but right now the movement is too small to be an issue.

    Congrats on the acceptance, and go have a great time!

  • Kelly
    June 06, 2017 at 7:21am

    Hi Dave,

    I’m trying to decide between Vandy (with 81K scholarship in total) and Cornell (at sticker). I want to practice in New York after graduation and considering that I’m an international student, I feel that I should go to Cornell because of its international recognition in case I must move back to Asia later. I’m okay with living in the middle of nowhere so location is not really an issue. The thing is Vandy seems to place pretty well in New York as well as other places in the US so if my goal is to do biglaw in New York after graduation, both Vandy and Cornell seem to be good choices. Since Vandy is offering me a scholarship, too, it takes some of my burden off. But Cornell is still better ranked, places most of their students in NYC, has more courses that I’m interested in taking than Vandy, and their grading curve is much higher. I want to make up my mind if all of that is worth paying 100K+ more and would really appreciate your opinion. Thanks in advance!

  • Dennis Lee
    June 08, 2017 at 8:28pm

    Hi Dave,
    You have offered some great advice on this site and was hoping you could opine on my daughter’s situation. She graduated in 2016 with very good grades and decided late in the year to try to apply to law school. Her original intention was to use the year as a practice run and then apply seriously for admission for the fall of 2018. Well, with very little study she did well on the LSAT (lower 160’s) and applied to 8 schools to see how it would go. It turns out that she got full ride offers to 6 (Ohio State, American, ASU, U of Arizona, Wake Forest & Case), ½ to George Washington and a decline from Duke.

    It has come down to Ohio State vs waiting another year and trying to improve her LSAT score to get into a T14. She’s torn between practicing in DC and Ohio, but looks at the prestige a T14 can offer and potential opportunities it affords. She also is very conscious of the enormity of debt that may coming with getting into a T14 without significant scholarship. She originally was interested in GW but because Ohio State and GW are ranked the same thought the Ohio State offer was better.

    So looking for your thoughts on likelihood of improving her LSAT score to get into a T14, and starting a career in DC if she attends Ohio State. The Ohio State offer seems too good to pass, but she also doesn’t want to settle if there is greater potential at a T14. Also waiting another years seems to be putting off the inevitable. Thank you!

  • Dave Killoran
    June 10, 2017 at 12:14am

    Hi Kelly,

    This is a bit tougher for me, and I would first off recommend that you do the basic analysis that I’ve done in prior posts. That should always be your first step because citing numbers in a vacuum–such as an 81K scholarship–doesn’t give a fully-realized idea of what the debt involved actually is. You need to know exactly what the final number as far as your debt at each school is. And by the way, this isn’t for me–it’s for you. As I’ve said multiple times in the comments here, it really helps when *you* see what the monthly payment is for each school after you graduate. This is especially the case here since I don’t have any info about your financial situation, so the evaluation on this point has to be done entirely by you.

    Ok, that said, this comes down to a balance between that monthly debt number and what kind of name recognition is worth the extra fee for you in NYC and then possibly later in international job markets. Vandy is a great school in one of the coolest towns in this country, but if you are trying to get a job in a city where they don’t know Vandy, then it isn’t worth as much to you. This is why it’s good that you are looking at the job numbers–these tell the truest picture of how a school’s reputation works. I get the feeling that Vandy’s placement power surprises you a bit, but this is why you want to look at the stats and not go on perceptions.

    As far as intentional placement, I can’t speak to that as much since Asian markets are quite varied and I’m not a specialist on placements in the various cities, and also because you are talking about that in several years time, not now. Also, the classes offered have little to no effect on my recommendations simply because so many students find that once in law school their interests turn out to be far different than what they expected (and because most law school courses are basically the same in the first year plus, meaning a high percentage of your legal education is the same at each school).

    In the final analysis, I unfortunately don’t have enough information from you to give solid advice here. Your financials, your job location preferences and the chances of you staying here vs Asia, and even how you feel about Nashville all are blind spots to me right now. They aren’t to you though, and i would weigh each of those options and then decide if it’s worth the extra money per month that you have to pay to go to Cornell. Only you know the answer there, but if you approach it systematically and with stats, I think you can do a pretty good job of deciding 🙂

    Good luck!

  • Dave Killoran
    June 10, 2017 at 12:33am

    Hi DFennis,

    I’ve just returned form a lengthy trip, and I couldn’t quite get to your question today, but I will post an answer tomorrow. I will say that this is all going to come down to her waiting an extra year vs her career aspirations. the Duke rejection more or less sums up where she stands right now: she’s set with OSU (great school, btw) but her numbers aren’t good enough for the T14. Could she increase her LSAT score with an extra year? Sounds like it. Is it worth it? That I’m not sure about–it’s a long time, but we do know that a higher LSAT score will not only increase her acceptances but bring more money as well. So the balance becomes an extra year (and I don’t take that lightly) vs where she wants to go and what kind of school she needs for that. I’ll talk more about it tomorrow.

    Thanks!

  • Kelly
    June 10, 2017 at 4:25pm

    Thank you very much for the response! I did my research and tuition + expenses comes down to 78K/year for Vandy and 85K/year for Cornell. So with my scholarship offer from Vandy, I’d be paying around 153K in total whereas for Cornell, I’d be paying around 255K. Honestly, finance isn’t a problem even though I may feel the psychological burden that I’m investing so much into a three-year education.I’m putting employment post-grad as my priority. I definitely want to live and practice in New York City at least for a few years after graduating before I move elsewhere.

    At the same time, I feel fine imagining myself living in Nashville, and I do appreciate the scholarship offer, and I’ve been hearing good things about the people but mixed opinions on their grading policy. Cornell seems more transparent about their grading policy and since they place well in NYC, I’m okay with paying in full at Cornell but also okay with going with Vanderbilt. What other things should I consider in order to make a decision???

  • Dennis Lee
    June 10, 2017 at 5:16pm

    Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. Definitely would like to hear your thoughts on waiting a year. She concerned about opportunities offered at Ohio State. I’ve told her to reconsider George Washington if that is a concern, but would be interested in your opinion on Ohio State. Waiting a year just doesn’t make sense to me.

    Thanks again!

  • Dave Killoran
    June 10, 2017 at 6:20pm

    Hi Kelly,

    Thanks for the reply! If finance isn’t a problem, then it comes down to where you want to go after law school and your personal preferences. The set of factors involved in any decision like this is very personal once you get past money, and from your comments I can see that you’ve done your due diligence. So I think you should trust what your heart is telling you.

    You’ve been clear that practicing in NYC is a priority, and I’m sure you know that recently Cornell placed about 56% of grads into NY whereas Vandy placed about 16%. At the same time, the percentage of Cornell grads placed into large firms was also significantly higher, although we have to account for the fact that placing in NYC makes it more likely that you are also placing at a larger firm. But it is clear that if NYC is your goal, then Cornell gives you better access and options for that than does Vandy.

    If you can handle the winters in Ithaca, and generally like the campus and school environment, then there aren’t too many other factors that would be relevant enough to dissuade you from attending Cornell. You’ve clearly looked at things like grading and course options, as well as finances, location, rankings, and placement, so I think you’ve covered the main bases here as far as a decision. Thus, I have no objection to you going with your gut feeling here about Cornell.

    I hope that helps, and best of luck to you in law school!

  • Dave Killoran
    June 10, 2017 at 6:49pm

    Hi Dennis,

    Thanks for the reply! The first place I’m going to refer you to is the LST Report on OSU: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/osu/. This gives a very nice thumbnail sketch on how the school performs when it comes to job placement, salaries, and bar passage. You should also compare that to GW: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/gw/.

    The comparison between those two would suggest to me that the full ride at OSU is generally the better choice. First, it’s free, whereas at GW she’d be walking out with a six figure debt load. Second, in comparison to GW, OSU also performs well in employment, which is really important to me when evaluating offers. The downside is that OSU places a LOT of grads into Ohio (80%), so her options for practice would most likely be in-state unless she is at the very top of her class (which is not easy at all to guarantee). GW places about half of their grads in DC and about 10% in NYC, so there is a bit broader feel to the options when you attend GW. However, you mentioned that she’s torn between DC and Ohio as practice locations, so for her it may be that this isn’t a big issue. To me, this is a critical point, and question she *really* needs to ask herself is: where do I want to practice and what type of job do I want? If Ohio is great, then take the money at OSU and don’t look back! If she’s a “bit” interested in DC or “kinda” would like to have the option, then again I’d say go with OSU. However, if she’s adamant that she wants a big-city practice or for sure wants biglaw, that’s when other options aside from OSU come into play.

    If the latter is the case (and I suspect it isn’t based on your initial comments), then she has either a half scholarship at GW or the option of a year off for a try at a higher LSAT score. The decision factors involved get very personal here, and aren’t of the type that I can easily evaluate. Given her performance with minimal prep, I suspect she can raise her LSAT score further, which as I’ve mentioned earlier would open doors at more highly-ranked schools as well as increase her financial aid packages. The cost is the extra year off, which is a huge cost! However, that cost is weighed against the debt load from GW, and through that prism I don’t think the cost looks so bad. Let’s say she could raise her score into the upper 160s. At that point, her aid package at a place like GW might well be increased a full ride, meaning she’d save something like $150K overall. In that light, taking a year off actually would make some sense. If she could do even better, then perhaps she’d be looking at great aid packages at even better schools, meaning even more would be saved (or gained, it depends on how you look at it).

    Thus, in my opinion, her situation reduces to two primary questions:

    1. This is the question I posed above, namely, “where does she want to practice and what type of job does she want?” Depending on her answer, then she’d either accept the OSU offer, or alternately consider my second question.

    2. This question only gets asked if the answer the first question shows that Ohio isn’t where she wants to end up, and her opinion on that is *very* strong. The question is: “How much better could she do on the LSAT if she had another year to prepare for the exam?” If the answer is, “I don’t think I can improve much,” then take the OSU offer and don’t worry about this option. But if the answer is that she believes with good reason that she could do 5-6 points better (or more), then she should consider retaking the exam, and then re-applying, especially to schools in the T14 and schools with good rankings in larger cities (such as GW or Georgetown).

    I think this is an interesting situation, and although I’m generally anti-taking a year off, you can see how in her case it might actually make some sense. But for that to be the case, she has to be fully committed to what she wants because that course of action requires considerable time and effort. It could very well be worth it both economically and job-wise, but it’s not a path for the faint of heart.

    Please let me know what she says–I’m really interested in hearing what she think about the options. Thanks!

  • tiffany Han
    June 13, 2017 at 5:48am

    Hi Dave!

    I’m currently trying to decide between UT Austin and Georgetown. I would only be paying about 50% tuition at UT Austin and basically sticker at Georgetown. I’m not entirely sure which legal field I’d like to study/work in, so my main concern is that I wouldn’t have as many opportunities to explore internships/jobs at UT as I would at Georgetown. I am quite interested in human rights, but I expect to work at a big law firm for a few years after graduating. I’m from California but wouldn’t be opposed to working in NYC for a while; I’m not in a rush to return to LA/SF. As much as I love Austin (and am attracted to the low cost of living), I don’t know how long I would like to live and work there for. If I go to Georgetown, I’d likely try to find a job in NYC after graduating, but I’m worried the competition will be stiff because the market is so saturated by Top 10 schools in the region. I’m still waitlisted at NYU, Columbia, & UPenn, but if I commit to Georgetown this week, I’d have to withdraw those applications. Any advice would be much appreciated!

  • Kelly
    June 13, 2017 at 6:11am

    Thank you very much for the advice! I’ll have to make a decision soon 🙂

  • Dave Killoran
    June 13, 2017 at 4:30pm

    Hi Tiffany,

    I’ll be honest, this isn’t a tough choice if it was me. I’d take the 50% off and go to Texas. It’s a great school, and this year finally edged ahead of Gtown in the rankings.

    Jobs-wise, your lack of certainty about your future further strengthens my idea that Texas is a solid choice since Tex grads place pretty much everywhere, and Texas even outperforms Gtown on Clerkships. It’s also notable that the 1L class at Texas is much smaller than Georgetown, which is huge (576 1Ls at GULC in 2016 vs 295 at Texas).

    I certainly understand the appeal of Gtown–I was born in the area and later went to high school there. DC is the center of our political world and anyone with a legal interest has to be enticed by being just around the from the SCOTUS.

    I suppose the bottom line in my opinion is that Texas and Georgetown are seen as very similar schools, but in this case you get Texas for half the cost. I’d personally take the money but you need to do what feels best for you.

    I’d love to hear what you decide. Thanks!

  • Tiffany
    June 14, 2017 at 3:26pm

    Hey Dave,

    I ended up e-mailing Gtown and received 1/3 off tuition! Do you think UT’s current ranking is really that significant when Gtown’s has historically been higher? I feel like those rankings are always changing, so I can’t tell how reliable they are each year. Just hoping Gtown’s doesn’t continue in the wrong direction, while UT’s continues to go up!

  • Dave Killoran
    June 14, 2017 at 7:25pm

    Hi Tiffany,

    Great job! I don’t think the rankings much matter here as both schools have generally be stable for a while. No one can predict the future of course, and Gtown does have a massive 1L class but I don’t see them dropping out of the Top 20.

    I didn’t base my recommendation on ranking, though. I based it on cost, so even though you received 1/3 off (and it’s really telling to me that a simple email resulted in that decrease), UT is still cheaper and so if it was me I’d still take UT. But this is your decision, not mine, and you have to do what you think is best 🙂

  • Dennis Lee
    June 19, 2017 at 5:34pm

    Dave,

    Great additional comments about her choice. Well after a week of mulling things over, she has decided to take the offer at Ohio State. She’s not completely sure she wants to end up in DC to practice but, in order to keep her options open there, she plans to continue to cultivate relationships that she made during undergraduate school and in the past year in working there.
    Ohio State also offers a summer program in DC which she will look into. I think a lot of her decision came down to a sure thing at Ohio State vs an uncertain path and delaying that path for another year.

    Thanks again!

  • Dave Killoran
    June 19, 2017 at 10:53pm

    Hi Dennis,

    A solid decision on her part, and one that makes complete sense to me. I wish her the best of luck! Thanks also for letting me know the final decision–I really appreciate that!

  • Corey Lopez
    June 22, 2017 at 9:21pm

    I’m currently debating on Chicago Kent College of Law or the University of Illinois College of Law, Kent has offered me a full tuition scholarship and U of I has given me a 60% scholarship. Not sure if I want to do big law. But U of I is ranked 31 and Kent is around 70. Not sure which one to pick. I know U of I has better job placement numbers, but its hard to pass on a free legal education. Assuming I want to practice in Chicago, which one seems like the better option?

  • Dave Killoran
    June 25, 2017 at 7:59pm

    Hi Corey,

    Thanks for the question! Could you possibly do the basic financial breakdown for Illinois that I’ve done elsewhere in my answers here? That would really help me understand your exact financial picture, and then I can make a much better assessment of your options. I’d generally tend toward the free ride since the two schools aren’t that far apart in rankings, but it would be helpful to know the *exact* debt load you’d be looking at upon graduation from Illinois, and the job figures from LSTReports.com for each school wouldn’t hurt either. Just to be sure, it looks like this:

    Florida tuition non-discounted (67k) – 9k scholarship = 58k debt
    LST employment/unemployment scores 76.2/16.2
    Ranking: USNews: #41 ATL: 30

    Thanks!

  • corey Lopez
    July 06, 2017 at 4:46pm

    Dave,

    Thanks for the response!

    Kent= 0 debt
    LST employment/unemployment scores 55/10.7. However the underemployment is 22.7%.
    Ranking US News: #92 ATL: not in to 50

    UIUC= 39k – 21k = 18k per year= 54k debt after 3 years.
    LST employment/unemployment 78.3/8.4. Underemployment 10.8.
    Ranking US news: #44 ATL #31

  • corey
    July 06, 2017 at 4:47pm

    Dave,

    Thanks for the response!

    Kent= 0 debt
    LST employment/unemployment scores 55/10.7. However the underemployment is 22.7%.
    Ranking US News: #92 ATL: not in to 50

    UIUC= 39k – 21k = 18k per year= 54k debt after 3 years.
    LST employment/unemployment 78.3/8.4. Underemployment 10.8.
    Ranking US news: #44 ATL #31

  • Dave Killoran
    July 07, 2017 at 2:57pm

    Hey Corey, thanks for the reply! I always like everyone to do those breakdowns so they can see the facts (and everyone else can too). In this case, it’s a tough call. Yes, Kent has worse employment numbers, but it’s free. Illinois is a school I really like, but it it’s going to cost you $54K. So it’s $54K debt vs worse job prospects. which one do you fear most? That is the essence of the decision being made here. I’d personally probably take Illinois, and use the bigger name and better job prospects to erase what is a smallish debt, but that is not the “best” decision here. What’s best is the choice you make, and I can tell you that debt avoidance is usually a very high priority for me. Difficult decision either way!

  • Jess
    July 07, 2017 at 7:53pm

    Hey Dave, I’m trying to decide between GMU and GW, both with big scholarships. I like the D.C/Virginia area and would feel comfortable working there for the foreseeable future, although GW seems to give a little more mobility in terms of employment. I’m very debt-averse, so even with the large scholarship at GW, 42k is still a lot to me in terms of debt. LST seems to indicate the employment scores for the two are relatively similar, so I’m not sure if GW is worth the additional debt when I could go to GMU four miles away for a total of 8k. I’ve already signed a lease in the area, so I intend to go to one of these two law schools this August. I could’ve waited until next cycle and tried for a t14, but I can’t stomach that amount of debt when I’m not committed to getting biglaw. My parents think I should take the less expensive option, and I don’t know any lawyers I could ask.

    George Washington tuition non-discounted (174k) – 132k scholarship = 42k debt
    LST employment/unemployment scores 67.2/10.1 underemployed 19.5%
    Ranking: USNews: #30 ATL: 34

    George Mason tuition non-discounted (122k) – 114k scholarship = 8k debt
    LST employment/unemployment scores 64.7/6.8 underemployed 12%
    Ranking: USNews: #41 ATL: N/A

  • Dave Killoran
    July 08, 2017 at 1:06am

    Hi Jess,

    Thanks for the question! This is really tough for me. On a relative scale, $42K isn’t bad, and since I love ATL’s ratings, that #31 is appealing. but your parents also have a point: leaving with just $8K is akin to a free education. That’s pretty hard to pass up!

    The one question I want to ask you is: do you see yourself at GMU? Because your happiness will be critically important to how well you perform in law school, and how well you perform is going to be critical to the jobs you can obtain. If you like GMU and see yourself there, I see no reason to not go there. But if you can’t or prefer GW, then you need to consider that carefully.

    Please let me know what you think. Thanks!

  • Jess
    July 08, 2017 at 8:35pm

    Hey Dave, thanks for responding so quickly! I really appreciate your insight. I do like the location of GMU and the fact that it’s a smaller school. My hesitation is that going there essentially rules out almost any chance of biglaw or a federal clerkship, whereas 35% of GW grads will get those positions. I don’t know for sure if I’d want to do biglaw or clerk, but GMU doesn’t really give me the option. So that’s why it’s such a hard choice for me

  • Dave Killoran
    July 09, 2017 at 4:58pm

    Hi Jess, you are correct about GMU placing at a lower rate in those jobs (here are the numbers for anyone else reading, per https://www.lstreports.com/national/) compared to GW:

    GW: Fed Clerkship = 3.8%
    Big firm = 23.4%

    GMU: Fed Clerkship = 1.5%
    Big firm = 9%

    This is exactly where the tradeoff here becomes apparent: certain job prospects are sacrificed in order to obtain the lower fees. There’s one school of thought that says that saving $34K is small potatoes compared to the possible income loss by not having these options, but that is true only if those jobs interest you AND you can obtain one. The other school of thought says that nothing is guaranteed, but that debt is real and non-dischargeable, and thus to be avoided at all costs.

    The best advice I can offer here is to take some time to research big firm jobs and clerkships, the type of work required, and the options they create in your working life. If the option is something you conclude is necessary for your future, then you’ll make one decision. If you determine that when is all is said and done that those options aren’t that important, then you’ll make a different decision. But right now is the time to look very carefully because the decision you make has real consequences regardless of which direction you take.

    I hope that helps, and good luck!

  • Katherine Wahl
    July 11, 2017 at 3:44pm

    Hi Dave,

    I recently got off the waitlist for GW, but with no money and only for the part-time program (which is not the program I applied for, nor a program I really want to be in but I would be able to transfer to full-time in the spring). I currently have a 30K per year scholarship at American (WCL)… So I have to decide if the ranking at GW is worth the money and being in a program I don’t like for a semester, do you have any advice?

    Please let me know what you think!

  • Dave Killoran
    July 11, 2017 at 9:20pm

    Hi Katherine!

    My take on the part-time program is that GW is actually trying hard here to create a pathway for you, not just ignoring your app or rejecting you. So I wouldn’t worry too much about the program they put you in at first since they are trying to use it as a way to get you into the regular full-time program at the school. This is what schools do when they like a candidate but the applicant doesn’t meet some part of their normal criteria.

    From here, then, I’m going to request that you do the numbers comparison I do above for both schools. Here’s the GW one:

    GW: Non discounted Cost = 308K
    GW: Employment score = 64% / Under Employment = 21.1%
    GW Rankings: USnews #30; ATL: #33

    The reason I want you to do American is that I want you to see the exact differences in black and white as far as numbers. I explain why a few times above so I won’t repeat it again.

    Once we have that, let’s look at your decision more closely. Thanks!

  • Katie
    July 12, 2017 at 2:31pm

    Hi Dave,

    I was accepted to several schools last week, and have narrowed it down to three. Finances are a strong consideration, but I also don’t want to discount the ranking of these schools. I am fairly certain I will remain in the Baltimore/Washington area, considering my husband and I just purchased a home in Baltimore. I should also note I will be going in the evening while working at a small firm during the day that provides guaranteed employment upon graduation should I opt to practice this type of law.

    My options are:

    University of Maryland- highest ranked of the schools I am considering (#48 overall, #4 part time)
    22k-10k= 12k per year
    American University- #6 for part time programs, 2 hour commute total each day
    38k-30k= 8k per year
    University of Baltimore- not highly ranked (#29 for part time), but strong local reputation. More likely to be near top of class
    24k-15k=9k per year

    I have just two more days to make a decision (I was only given a week by one of these schools), and am looking for any input you have to offer.

    Thanks in advance!

  • Dave Killoran
    July 13, 2017 at 12:31am

    Hi Katie,

    I only have a moment to respond unfortunately, but to me this is a fairly clear case. Given the close amounts per year, I’d look at the two more highly ranked schools, meaning Maryland and AU. Then when you toss in that commute for AU, I think that Maryland looks very strong. Not to put my own value judgment on this, but 2 hours commute each day and you only save 4K a year, and it’s for a lower ranked school? That doesn’t seem to add up to me at all.

    Also, no matter how well Baltimore is regarded locally, always think big picture, especially when costs are so close.

    Last note, you can never assume what will happen with class rank or grades; it’s just too variable to even think about that as a factor. Things at a different school could align even better, or something at Baltimore might cause issues.

    So, given all the factors, if it was me, I’d take Maryland and not look back for even a second 🙂

    I hope that helps. Thanks and please let me knwo what YOU decide, because that’s what important here!

  • Pearl
    July 18, 2017 at 11:58pm

    Hi Dave,

    I took my lsats this past February and managed to score a 166 by studying on my own. By the time I received my score it was too late to apply to any of the t14 law schools. I did apply to Fordham and was accepted woth a $30,000 scholarship per year.

    I am trying to decide of it is worth attending Fordham or if I should hold off a year and apply to Penn, Michigan, amd Georgetown. I am interested in practicing either child advocacy law, law assisting those with developmental disabilities, or constitutional law/judicial. The problem with holding off is that I am not guaranteed admittance to another law school or scholarship, although I do have a high undergraduate gpa. I currently live in NY which would decrease my cost of living of I attend Fordham and I am interested in attending Fordham. If I do hold off I may retake my lsats with the hope of improving my score.
    Thank you for your advice on whether I should accept Fordham’s offer.

  • Dave Killoran
    July 19, 2017 at 4:47pm

    Hi Pearl,

    This is an extremely difficult question for me to answer, and really I don’t feel comfortable making a recommendation when the only things I know are that you received a 166 and live in NY. It’s just not enough to weigh in on what is an extremely important life decision for you!

    I will say this however: if Fordham offered you a $30K scholarship, then they obviously liked what they saw. In cases such as that, more highly-ranked schools will often at least come to the table with an offer of admission. How much they offer in scholarships is another matter, but certainly what you have so far suggests that as far as rankings, you could probably gain acceptances from more highly-ranked schools. At that point, it becomes the classic argument over money vs rankings, and with no real information about your application strengths and weaknesses, it’s impossible to say what the outcome would be there.

    Again, I don’t normally suggest our services as matter of avoiding bias, but if I were you I’d contact our Admissions Consulting Department and schedule about two hours with Tony Bates, and then have him do an overview of your app and give his opinion. He worked as a dean in the admissions offices of NYU, Michigan, and Washington, as well as attended Michigan Law, and he’d be able to definitively say whether your chances at T14 schools were realistic. Yes, I realize that’s not a cheap solution, but the decision you are talking about here has potentially millions of dollars in repercussions, and I can’t make a judgment from where I’m sitting.

    Thanks and good luck!

  • Nicolle
    July 19, 2017 at 11:37pm

    Hi Pearl and Dave, I’m not sure if I should weigh in here, but I got a 166 and was also accepted to Fordham with a 30k scholarship. I accepted, especially because I want to live and practice in NY. My undergrad gpa is 3.5 and I got my paralegal certificate with a 4.0 gpa. I didn’t really have many extracurriculars, and I’ve been out of school for about 8 years working various jobs and most recently as a paralegal. I’m saying all this so maybe you can compare your application to mine. I applied to Cornell and NYU and Columbia and got rejected from them all. I did not, however, apply to the schools you listed above. I feel like 166 is kind of a weird score, its very high for most schools and too low for top schools. Again not sure if this was helpful or if I’m allowed to respond but figured I’d share.

  • Pearl
    July 20, 2017 at 2:59am

    Hi Nicolle,

    Thank you for your response, it was very insightful. My situation is slightly different from yours. I graduated 2 years ago with 3.98 gpa. Since graduation i have managed to work my way up from a supervisor to a senior manager at a non-profit. I received a few emails from law schools such as Michigan and Washington University inviting me to apply. I understand that it does not guarantee me admission, however, I believe that its an indicator that I may be able to get into the above mentioned schools. I do agree that a 166 is an akward score.

  • Maggie Walton
    July 20, 2017 at 4:35am

    Hello,
    I am trying to choose between UC Berkeley, UCLA, The University of Chicago, and U Michigan. I have ruled out Michigan and UCLA for several factors that are not relevant to this discussion. I also have a full ride scholarship to a school ranked between between 30 and 22 (it has fluctuated for the years).

    I have no scholarship at either Berkeley or University of Chicago. Full Sticker on both.

    For full sticker price, which is going to maximize my odds of landing a job in Big Law job out of law school? Does it matter that one is ranked 4th and the other 12th? How much does it matter?

    If one can do better at Berkeley (Law Review for example) but not as well as UChicago (but still get good grades at Chicago, but good lets say some B’s and some A’s), would there be a more clear answer to which option is the better option.

    Is it worth paying sticker at both than it is to attend a school ranked in the mid-20’s?

    Thank you.
    MW

  • Dave Killoran
    July 20, 2017 at 2:49pm

    Hi MW,

    This is kind of the golden question, as to whether a full ride at a T25 or so school is a better choice than full boat at the #4 ranked school. As you may have noticed, there’s not an answer that is the same for every person. It depends on your job goals, your debt tolerance, your geographical preferences, and even your belief in yourself. For example, if you wanted to be a law professor and absolutely have your heart set on it, that changes the parameters of your decision. Now, you mentioned biglaw, which happens to be notoriously name-sensitive. Here’s the comparison:

    Chicago: Large Firm = 61.4%
    Berkeley: Large Firm = 49.7%
    (and Chicago does about 5% on clerkships too, which are key: 16% vs 11%)

    Is that worth the approximately $68K more you pay at Chicago? For me personally it probably would be since once you’re at that debt level I’d go for the best possible outcome; for you, though, I don’t know. I don’t know how debt averse you are, I don’t know which school you might thrive at, and I don’t know so many factors here that would truly make this decision.

    So, I recommend very strongly that you run all the analyses I’ve talked about in my responses above, from a debt analysis to a jobs analysis. Even looks at rankings, such as ATL’s (http://abovethelaw.com/law-school-rankings/top-law-schools/), which puts Chicago #2 and Berkeley #12. Ask yourself which gives you the best pathway for you, and how set you are on those goals.

    Good luck!

  • Pearl
    July 21, 2017 at 12:48am

    Hi Dave,

    Thank you for your response. I am unsure if the following information will help you give me a recommendation. I would consider utilizing the consulting service, however, I have a very limited amount of time to answer Fordham by. I graduated from a CUNY with a 3.98 gpa and a dual major. While in college I worked at a non-profit organization, I started out as a direct care worker and worked my way from that to supervisor to senior manager, where I am currently now.
    I have received a few emails from various institutions inviting me to apply or to come down for a tour. These invitations came from Michigan, Upenn, as well as lower ranked institutes.
    I am not interested in practicing big law, which is where my apprehension to take on a large amount of debt stems from.
    Thank you,
    Pearl

  • Maggie Walton
    July 21, 2017 at 6:14pm

    Hello Dave,
    Thank for your fast reply.
    I have utilized the sites you reference regularly (Law School Transparency and ATL) for some insight, but still no clear answer.

    Which choice between UChicago and Berkeley would be better for academia?
    How much of a difference is there in rankings translated into the real world, even if the two extremes of ranking (#2 v. @12 are assumed)? (will law firms care; will future academic hiring care)
    Would it matter that one has Law Review at the #12 and no law review at the #2? (would law journal participation matter at all if the journal is not the flagship journal for a school)

    Thank you for what you do.
    MW

  • Dave Killoran
    July 25, 2017 at 9:27pm

    Hi Maggie,

    All these factors matter and that’s why it’s so hard to say which is “best.” Chicago is the better ranked school and it has better job placement and better clerkship placement. It’s a cut above Berkeley when everything else is ignored. But is it best for you? I can’t say 🙂

    If you went to Berkeley and received better grades and made law review, and only did middling at Chicago, then Berkeley would likely turn out better for you. and that’s the problem–we can’t see into the future.

    Clerkship placement (especially federal placement) is a really good indicator to me of how these schools are regarded because these are the most desirable jobs, and they often set up the receiver in a great position for academia or biglaw. You can see Chicago at 16.7% federal placement (better than a 1 in 8 chance!) vs Berkeley at 11.8% (still great, just not nearly as good as Chicago). So, if you’re looking for a straight answer about academia chances based just on placement numbers (which I don’t recommend), then it’s Chicago. And yes, hiring partners at law firms know all this too 🙂

    I always tell students to go where they feel most comfortable because that will help you perform at your best. Both of these schools are great, and either one can provide a platform for success. But much of your outcome will depend on how you perform once you arrive.

    Good luck!

  • Dallin Packard
    October 17, 2017 at 1:41am

    Hello,
    my questions are currently hypothetical, and won’t become concrete until I begin receiving acceptance letters and scholarships. But here’s my question: Would I be better off going to Columbia most likely at full cost, or UT most likely debt free (or close to it.) I am a Texas resident and want to practice patent law in Houston. Eventually I want to open up a firm with my brother. But in addition to that, I have a big interest in doing a federal clerkship and in putting myself on the right track of becoming a judge one day. I know that judgeship isn’t something I can plan for really, or even expect, but I do think a clerkship would go a long way to help make that happen.

    Also, UT is set, but the case of Columbia might also be for any of the other top 7 or so schools, excluding HYS, as they are most likely just out of reach.

  • Dave Killoran
    October 17, 2017 at 10:33pm

    Hi Dallin,

    Thanks for the questions. It’s so tough to answer hypotheticals, in part because so often the hypothetical doesn’t come to pass exactly as foreseen 🙂

    In this case, I personally would go debt free, because that’s a guarantee. No matter what happens in law school or what future choices you want to make, you won’t be saddled by huge debt, which can be debilitating. But, everyone makes their own choices, and what I say may not apply to you. It’s a decision you have to weigh, and you have to prioritize each factor. UT is certainly a stellar law school with a massive network in Texas, so it’s not like you can go wrong going there. Columbia is obviously very special, and has great hiring stats, and the only downside is the debt (which is a big one). I strongly recommend you familiarize yourself with all the costs associated with law school, and then look carefully at what the monthly debt looks like after you graduate.

    I’d recommend reading my analyses of other decisions on this blog post, because some are similar to the one you pose and because I reference a host of useful tools for analyzing the decision, as well as the reasons behind some of my thinking.

    Thanks!

  • Taylor
    December 29, 2017 at 2:03am

    Hey David,

    This blog post has been really helpful in my decision making process thus far. I have currently been accepted to most of the schools I applied to for the Fall 2018 semester. But now comes the hard part of picking the best one. I have looked at some of the school’s LST reports like you mentioned in previous comments and I wanted to see what you thought. I am currently looking at Akron who offered me 60% off tuition. Akron’s tuition is already very cheap at roughly $24,000 a year, making my total tuition cost for all three years about $30,000. Their LST report is what is holding me back though. Their employment rate in full-time legal jobs is at about 44.4%. If that number was a bit higher I wouldn’t have as many reservations. I am also considering University of Louisville, which is ranked a lot higher and has a better employment score of 60.7%. They offered me $15,000 off $40,000 tuition a year, making my tuition for all three years at about $75,000. A couple of other schools I applied to have the same tuition and offered me about the same amount. I just feel like Akron’s deal is too nice to pass up. Even though it’s not a full ride I would still come out with not little debt compared to what it could be. Debt scares me but not being employed scares me too. If you were in my shoes what would you do? Thanks.

  • Dave Killoran
    January 02, 2018 at 8:14pm

    Hi Taylor,

    Thanks for the question! If you read through the many replies I’ve made on this post, you’ll see two things:

    1. I tend to be debt-averse but also conscious of job outcomes as a key factor.

    2. I rarely make direct suggestions unless it’s crystal clear to me what the optimal route is.

    In your case, all I have are the basic job stats from the some of the schools, and the distinction there isn’t enough for me to think things are clear. So much of this is about you, your goals, where you will perform well, which school you like the most, and so on that there’s no way for me to add anything here that’s insightful! So, as much as I’d love to be able to make a definitive recommendation, I think it would be irresponsible of me or anyone to do so without knowing WAY more about you and where you want to go in life. This is, ultimately, the kind of decision that strangers can’t make for you–you have to look inside and go with what your feel is best.

    I’m sorry 🙁

  • Dallin Packard
    January 22, 2018 at 11:45pm

    Dave,

    I’ve got an update on my cycle.
    Scholarship offers: UVA 120,000, Michigan 135,000, UT 24,000
    COA: Mich – 105k
    UVA – 125k
    UT – 145k

    For working in Texas, is UT really that much better than other T10’s? These scholarships are making me second guess myself

  • Dave Killoran
    January 23, 2018 at 6:23pm

    Hi Dallin,

    Good to hear from you! So wait, UVA offered you 120K and Texas only 24K? That’s messed up, honestly.

    Here’s what I’d do: contact the Texas admissions office (call and try to speak with someone who can make a decision; if you can’t, then email. But a call is preferable since this is a personal situation). Explain that you are in Houston and would LOVE to attend UT, and it’s your top choice (assuming that to be the case). But then tell them that UVA has offered 5 times the amount of aid UT has, and Michigan almost 6 times (cite the actual numbers). Request a review of your aid offer, and ask them if they can be more competitive because you want to stay in-state. UT will understand immediately that UVA is a better option at lower cost, and if they hear you are serious about attending UT, there’s a good chance they’ll respond positively.

    It almost seems like they saw your numbers and assumed you’d be going elsewhere, so they low-balled you. So, you have better offers in hand–use them to negotiate and get something better for yourself. I’d wager they’ll come back and give you a much improved offer.

    Please let me know what happens, and good luck!

  • Eliza Johnson
    January 26, 2018 at 3:24pm

    Hi,

    I am in a complicated situation. I have applied to, and been accepted to all 3 law schools in my home state of Minnesota – University of Minnesota, Mitchell Hamline and University of St. Thomas. MH & UST are both regional schools, where University of Minnesota is in the top 50. I was offered full tuition scholarships at both MH & UST, and 18k from University of Minnesota.

    Knowing that I want to practice in Minnesota, ideally Intellectual Property law and eventually break into the Federal circuit – does it make sense to take the money and run?

    I am fairly well connected, and would bust my butt to be in the top 5 at a regional school. Or should I gamble, and get debt?

    I am also concerned about the learning environments, and the amount of connection and camaraderie at the University of Minnesota vs. a smaller regional school.

    Please let me know what you think!

  • Dave Killoran
    January 27, 2018 at 12:19am

    Hi Eliza,

    I’m actually from Minneapolis, which helps a bit in this case 🙂

    The Minneapolis legal market is pretty tight, and while the U is ranked well above both MH and UST, both MH and UST do pretty well placing grads into the Mpls market. The U tends to have the power to place grads a bit further afield (the #23 ranking helps there), so you see a lower placement rate into Minnesota and greater placement in larger legal markets like NY, IL, and CA. You probably know that, but it’s worth noting because it’s part of the reason their financial offer wasn’t as good as the other two.

    So, we can see relative rankings but that doesn’t answer your question. And I’m not sure there is a perfect answer. Some would say take the ranking, others would say take the free ride. I tend to avoid debt as much as possible, but part of this depends on your career path, the type of firm you want to practice at, etc. So let’s start with job outcomes:

    Minnesota: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/minnesota/jobs/ — 80.1% in Bar Passage Required jobs / 3.3% Unemployed

    Mitchell Hamline: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/mitchell-hamline/jobs/ — 61.6% in Bar Passage Required jobs / 17.5% Unemployed

    St. Thomas: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/stthomas/jobs/ — 58.5% in Bar Passage Required jobs / 5.5% Unemployed

    Federal circuit IP isn’t normally the province of solo practitioners or very small firms, so the job placement above makes some difference. I would spend serious time researching who is doing the representation at the federal level.

    Next, to your comment about you “would bust my butt to be in the top 5 at a regional school.” I like that sentiment a lot, but I’m going to be a realist here: every student enters with that mindset. Law school is very different than “normal” university, both in learning required and how exams are your entire grade. One good day or bad day can make or break you, and so I always tell students not to count on being at the very top of the class. There are just no guarantees.

    Next, about your connections. How good are they? Will they hire you no matter where you went to school? Because if not, then again there’s no guarantee.

    So, at this point you are probably thinking, “Ok then, I’m off to the U!” But then the financials kick in, and with the U costing about $230K over three years, if your aid is 18K a *year*, then you will be left with around $175K in debt. That’s a lot, almost $2K a month for the next decade. And so you have to balance that kind of cost against what your career goals are. This is why I suggested you take a close look at your connections and who practices the type of law you want to enter to see if you can take the free ride route, or whether that is going to require more name-brand power. That’s the part I can’t tell you about because I don’t have all the information that you do, but it gives you a starting point for a deeper analysis.

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Dominique Williams
    February 01, 2018 at 4:24am

    Hi Dave,
    So…I got into Tulane Law School, ranked (51), and they offered me a $25,000/year scholarship.
    Their tuition and fees cost about $56,000
    My debt would be about $100k coming out of law school if I attend.
    I also got into a much lower ranked school Loyola New Orleans (142, i think?), and they offered me a $36,000 scholarship that would cover 82% of my tuition and fees.
    My debt would be $24k coming out of law school if I were to attend the lower ranked school.
    I’m not exactly sure what type of law I want to practice as of now, but I do know that I do not want to stay in Louisiana.
    What do I do?

  • Dave Killoran
    February 01, 2018 at 5:08pm

    Hi Dominique,

    Thanks for the question! It’s not one I can directly answer for you, though. However, the first step is for you to take a look at the https://www.lstreports.com/ data and break things down in the manner I talk about repeatedly above. Have you done that yet? If not, do so and then post the data. Especially look at placement numbers outside of Louisiana, as you know you don’t want to stay in-state. Having some hard facts about job placement will put those debt numbers in better context, and make the analysis easier.

    Thanks!

  • Jesse A.
    February 01, 2018 at 9:04pm

    It is nice to see that I am not the only having to make tough decisions about law school. I have a question regarding what you all believe would be the best course of action. I am also from Minnesota.

    1. I was accepted to Maryland Law (Top 50) with no scholarship so I would be paying sticker out of state for the first year, and in state for years 2 and 3 because my parents reside in Maryland.

    2. I received 60% from St. Thomas, so huge discount, however St. Thomas is a regional school and I don’t think I want to be in Minnesota forever.

    I am attracted to the Maryland offer because it was pretty much my first choice, however, it is very costly and the amount of debt I will incur upon graduating worries me. However, I do know that I want to have the option to practice sports and entertainment law in DC, NY, LA, MIAMI, or CHI if I wanted to. And i feel that Maryland Law would give me the best opportunity to do that in the future. Should I take the money and run? Or should I take on the debt to pursue my career goals?

  • Dave Killoran
    February 02, 2018 at 7:49pm

    Hi Jesse,

    This is a very difficult choice, and there are people on both sides who would argue strongly that one choice or the other is best. I’d first suggest you create a spreadsheet that shows you the *exact* debt you will acquire by attending each school (including cost of living, etc). Second, with that information in hand, you need to look at the job outcomes form each school, especially in light of your career goals. There is also the consideration that in the field you say interests you, UST has zero name recognition whereas Maryland is at least a “name” brand among people (I don’t mean Maryland Law specifically, but just the University). There are no sure things here, and 60% off UST is nice, but it still leaves you with debt. but Maryland leaves you with more–and you have to be prepared to deal with that if you take that choice.

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • George M
    February 04, 2018 at 3:32pm

    Hello Dave,

    I’m a Mexican-American from East Los Angeles and considering applying to law school at age 44. I was looking up on how to pay for law school online and saw your posts. I am married with 5 kids and my oldest 2 are twins that will be starting college Fall 2018. I’ve wrestled with the thought of whether I should even try to attend law school at my age and the same time how will I pay for it and what schools I should apply to. Can you give me any advice on this as well as on which schools in my area offer full rides and what I would need to do to get a full ride?

    Thanks!

  • Jon Denning
    February 06, 2018 at 8:22pm

    Hi George – thanks for the questions! Let me try to take them one at a time 🙂

    First, as to your age and family situation, there’s absolutely nothing that I’m hearing that makes me think you wouldn’t be an excellent candidate for law school! You’re what’s considered a non-traditional applicant due to being a little older than the average 1L (first year student), but schools appreciate diversity so that won’t be viewed negatively. It simply means you’ll have some slightly unique choices to make when applying, like collecting your letters of recommendation from your professional career rather than your academic life–I doubt you’re still in touch with college professors from your undergrad days, anyway–and whether you’d want to attend full-time in law school, or enter a part-time program which many schools offer.

    Those are decisions only you can make, of course, but on the whole there’s zero reason to think that you’re not a qualified candidate 🙂

    Second, schools in the LA area and scholarships. LA really has a wide variety of options nearby, from the quite prestigious USC and UCLA programs, to some great mid-range schools in Loyola and Pepperdine, to less highly-ranked but still attractive options like Southwestern.

    Scholarships are available at each institution, however you’ll find that a “full ride” is going to require very different, and sometimes unpredicted, elements at each. For instance, a full academic ride to UCLA is likely to require an undergrad GPA of nearly-4.0 and an LSAT score of at least 169+ (and probably more like 173+). You’ll also need strong “softs” like a great personal statement, excellent letters of rec, and a compelling resume since you’ve been out of school for at least 20 years I suspect.

    But a full ride to Southwestern is going to be far easier to attain–the LSAT score in particular can likely be at least 8-12 points lower than the UCLA numbers I gave and still leave you competitive–so it’s an entirely different metric.

    So here’s your best bet right now. First, take a full, timed practice LSAT if you’ve never done so before (or if it’s been a while, like more than 2-3 months ago). There’s a free one you can download here: https://www.lsac.org/docs/default-source/jd-docs/sampleptjune.pdf

    Print it out, find some privacy, and then take the full test start to finish as four back-to-back sections of 35 minutes each. It’ll take around 2.5 hours total.

    Once you finish, create an account on our free self-study site so you can score your test: http://students.powerscore.com/self-study/index.cfm

    You’ll enter your answers and get comprehensive feedback on how you performed, so you’ll know both your starting score as well as your natural strengths and weaknesses (and immediate areas for improvement). Based on that starting point, look at the local LA schools I mentioned and see how your starting score stacks up–you can easily google data on each–as that will give you a better sense of how far you are from being financially attractive to these schools (for instance, UCLA’s median LSAT score is around a 167 whereas Southewestern’s is a 152).

    Then you can decide how best to prep to get your score up to a level to make you scholarship-competitive, depending on which school you’d like to attend and what’s most realistic! Just check out our prep options on our main LSAT page http://www.powerscore.com/lsat/ and let us know if you have any questions!

    I hope that helps!

  • George M
    February 06, 2018 at 8:42pm

    Jon,

    Thank you very much for the information. It helps a ton!

  • Grace H
    February 06, 2018 at 11:20pm

    Hi there! I found this article extremely helpful, so thank you so much for that! I am a big fan of PowerScore.
    I am in a little bit of a predicament and could use some guidance. I was accepted to both Emory and the University of Florida, with a $45,000 scholarship to Emory. I would get in-state tuition if I went to the University of Florida, so it would be cheaper than Emory. I am not sure where I want to practice law, but I could see myself ending up in Florida. I was just curious as to whether or not you think Emory is the better school and it would benefit me to go there over UF or if it is only marginally better than UF. Thank you in advance!

  • Dave Killoran
    February 07, 2018 at 10:36pm

    Hi Grace,

    Thanks for the questions and kind comments! There are a few things you should look at first, all of which I detail in responses above if you want some references for how that info looks 🙂

    I like both schools quite a bit, but Emory is #22, Florida is #41, and so we see how the rankings view the two schools comparatively. But, how much is that rankings difference worth? Start at https://www.lstreports.com/national/ and go look at employment data and job types of the grads at each school. Examine where they practice in terms of geography, firm type, etc. Then calculate your *exact* total debt and monthly payment, if possible, based on tuition, scholarships, cost of living, etc. That debt difference–is it worth the job outcome differences you see from those schools? That’s the real question here. If you’d like, you can post the info and I’ll weigh in, but this all starts with gathering as much data as possible, using debt calculators to see monthly payments, comparing job outcomes, and so on. Having the exact amounts in black and white can really help clarify the choice!

    There’s also personal factors here that are significant, and the problem there is aside from what you’e posted above, I don’t know much about you. That makes it really difficult (and somewhat reckless) for me to simply say that school A is better than school B. Maybe you’d thrive at one school but not at the other–that’s the kind of stuff you want to think about as well 🙂

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Susan
    February 09, 2018 at 5:08pm

    Hi all!

    Reading through these comments has been very helpful. I’m fortunate to be choosing between the Rubenstein at UChicago (full tuition + $20,000/year stipend), the Hamilton at Columbia (full tuition), and Harvard with no aid. My career goals are a federal clerkship in the short term and a prestigious public interest position in the long term (DOJ honors, ACLU, etc). I’m concerned that UChicago doesn’t seem to have much of a public interest community and Columbia’s clerkship rates are a bit low compared to the other two. Are these differences significant enough that they should concern me given my goals? I’m trying to gauge how much of a boost I would get from Harvard for these positions. My understanding is that grades are also a big factor in success in this field and Harvard is less competitive in that respect. With all that said, I haven’t heard from Stanford or Yale yet – would an acceptance from one of those change your answer?

    I’m only beginning the process of making such a big decision but would appreciate any insight. Thank you!

  • Dave Killoran
    February 09, 2018 at 7:14pm

    Hi Susan,

    Those are great options, congratulations! To me at least, this is a pretty clear-cut case. As much as I love Harvard, I would have a *very* hard time thinking that full tuition there is somehow possibly better than a free ride at Chicago or Columbia. The economics of it just make no sense to pay full ride when you have T6 schools offering that much money to you.

    As far as Chicago vs Columbia, these are top level schools, and neither will cause you to “go wrong.” and, you’ll find any community you want at either school. These are broad and varied student bodies with tons of diverse interests 🙂

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Susan
    February 10, 2018 at 2:17pm

    Hi Dave! Thank you, that’s very helpful!

  • Mitchell Elliott
    February 12, 2018 at 3:44am

    Hello,

    I live in the NW and want to go to law school in Texas. So far, I’ve been accepted into Baylor with a 70k scholarship spread over three years, though I got accepted into Texas AM law school with a full ride scholarship. Which one would you suggest I choose?

    Thank you!

  • Dave Killoran
    February 12, 2018 at 7:23pm

    Hi Mitchell,

    As you’ve probably seen above, I ask students with school-choice questions to make a full cost-debt-jobs analysis based on publicly available information at https://www.lstreports.com/national/. I would strongly suggest you do the same analysis, as it will allow you see see exactly what you are paying for in typical job outcomes if you go to Baylor.

    I also say repeatedly above that I’m debt averse, and if you take on debt, make sure it’s worth it. UT vs Texas A&M with the money involved might be a choice that makes me think, but Baylor isn’t a school that seems worth almost $200K of debt vs a much lower cost at A&M. But that’s just me–you have to look at how you feel about each school, the monthly payments involved, the job types and locations, etc and make the decision you feel is best for YOU.

    Good luck!

  • Neil Pladus
    February 14, 2018 at 11:26am

    How do you differentiate between schools that are similarly ranked? Let’s say you were offered a half scholarship at Minnesota and near full at a mid 30s school like Wake Forest? Is ten-fifteen ranking spots worth 10-15k in scholarship money?

  • Dave Killoran
    February 14, 2018 at 5:23pm

    Hi Neil,

    Thanks for the question. In most cases, unless you are talking about a Top3 school, the difference usually isn’t worth it. This is mainly because the job drawing power of Minnesota simply isn’t worth the extra cash vs the job power of Wake (and I say this as someone originally from Minnesota, so there’s no anti-U bias here). You can see this from comparing costs and job placement data from the two schools (see https://www.lstreports.com/national/ for a trove of relevant data) and then running the monthly payment from the extra debt accrued by attending a school such as Minnesota. Is it worth it to you? I tend to be debt-averse, so for me the attractiveness of graduating from a mid30s school with no debt is very hard to ignore.

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Daisy G.
    March 06, 2018 at 5:32pm

    Hi,

    I have a similar dilemma between choosing between law schools who have offered me a lot in scholarship funds versus a law school with a more noticeable name. I have received a $30, 000 per year scholarship Suffolk University, Full Ride albeit with a conditional Public Interest Fellowship from UMASS Darthmouth, and $16, 000 from Loyola in Chicago. The two I am focusing on are below:

    Quinnipiac – Full Tuition Scholarship – Deans’ Fellowship which includes a 1, 500 per year educational stipend and opportunity to become faculty Research Assistant, the only condition is that I have to stay in the top 50% of my class.
    43% Employment/25% Underemployment
    USNEWS #125

    Northeastern – $10, 000 per year scholarship
    57% Employment/29 % Underempployment
    USNEWS #65

    Still pending responses from University of Connecticut and Boston College. I know I want to practice in Boston, MA regardless of where I go to law school, and I do plan on negotiating my scholarship with Northeastern,though I am not sure if they will be very flexible. I know Northeastern is a better School for me, I absolutely adore their campus, I have friends working in the area so room and board would not be a problem, and I know so much about their co-op program and academics I could practically be a tour guide for their school. The issue truly comes down to money, basically will the differences between these two law schools ultimately lead to a significantly better job if I go to Northeastern?

  • Dave Killoran
    March 07, 2018 at 12:10am

    Hi Daisy,

    This is great info and perfectly presented, so thank you for doing this the right way! That said, can you do one more thing please: calculate the full debt total and resulting monthly payment for attending each school. I want you (and me) to be able to quantify *exactly* what it costs to attend Northeastern vs Quinnipiac. Include it all: living expenses, travel, tuition, books, etc. Then, post the employment numbers for the exact type of job you are seeking. Those will be more useful here as a comparison than just the broad employment numbers. Seeing those figures will provide a black and white background for your decision.

    Also, that said, it may well be that the numbers don’t matter. Your affinity for Northeastern is not something that should be ignored because how comfortable you are will directly impact how well you do in law school. And your grades are *everything* for your future prospects.

    I realize that’s a mixed answer, but those data points will help narrow this down even more I believe. Thanks and I look forward to hearing back from you!

  • Daisy G.
    March 07, 2018 at 4:57pm

    Hi Dave,

    Thanks for the speedy response! I have added the additional information below. I am amidst a year off between graduating undergrad and entering law school, during this time I have been working as a Paralegal at a small law firm which focuses in Health Law. Through this experience I realized I want to pursue Health Law but at a level which influences public policy such as working with a organizations to regulate quality of care given by medical providers or working with the FDA. I know I do not want to work at a small law firm (if possible).

    Northeastern:
    COA – 68, 943 per year (including living expenses etc.)
    Scholarship – 10, 000 per year
    ______________________________
    Total 58, 943 per year resulting in 176,829 in debt after 3 years
    $1456 per month

    Employment:
    55% of grads are employed in MA, the next largest percentage is NY at 8.6%
    4.6% Large Firm
    24.9% Public Interest
    1.2% Federal Clerkship

    Quinnipiac:
    Cost
    COA – 70, 516
    Full Tuition Scholarship
    Educational Stipend – 1, 500 per year
    _____________________________________
    Total 20, 376 per year resulting in 61, 128 in debt after 3 years
    509 per month

    Employment:
    76% of Employed Graduates are employed in CT, none from the class of 2016 are employed in MA.
    1.3% Large Firm
    10.5% Public Interest
    0% Federal Clerkship

    Also I just received a email from UCONN saying I was accepted! Any merit awards will be in the mailed letter (which I haven’t received yet) but I will keep you updated.

  • Dave Killoran
    March 16, 2018 at 7:32pm

    Hi Daisy,

    Sorry, I missed your followup! I wonder what’s going to happen with your other apps, because it might make this two-school decision a moot point. Obviously, the comparison above makes this a bit clearer both in terms of costs (Northeastern about $1000 more a month than Quinnipiac) but also the job breakdowns (NE having better overall placement). So, at this point, a $1000 more a month seems worth the better prospects (and also fits your preference for the school).

    Let’s see what else comes in 🙂

    Thanks!

  • Michael
    March 20, 2018 at 12:06am

    Good afternoon,

    First and foremost, I want to thank all of y’all at PowerScore – I took a full-length LSAT prep course last summer, as well as a couple hours of private LSAT tutoring and admissions consulting. I would not be in the position that I currently am without the team’s help and support throughout this entire process!

    With that being said, I find myself in a difficult position as to which school to attend next year (the classic “high prestige at sticker price vs. lower ranked school with scholarship money” decision). I am originally from Dallas, TX and am set on staying in-state for law school and work afterwords. Even though things may change in the future, as of now, I am committed to focusing my studies on criminal and constitutional law, possibly working as a prosecutor, appellate lawyer (open to being at either a DA’s office or private firm), or judicial clerkship in the future.

    I have been accepted to the following schools:
    – UT (no scholarship – planning on sending a reconsideration request)
    – SMU ($30,000 per year – sent reconsideration request, but have not heard back yet)
    – Baylor (full tuition)
    – Houston ($24,500 per year)
    – Texas A&M (full tuition)
    – Texas Tech ($27,000 per year)

    Given UT’s prestige and exceptional connections within the state of Texas, I would hate to turn down such an amazing opportunity. On the other hand, I will personally be responsible for any/all debt I incur, making the other schools look more attractive, despite their lower rankings. For example, the estimated cost of attendance at UT would be about $165,000 vs. SMU at about $156,000 vs. paying only non-tuition costs at Baylor.

    I would appreciate any and all advice/guidance in this matter as I prepare to make my final decision.

    Once again, thank you for all of y’all’s help and support – amazing program and staff y’all have, keep up the good work!

    Sincerely,

    Michael

  • Dave Killoran
    March 20, 2018 at 1:59am

    Hi Michael,

    Congrats, and I’m glad we’ve been able to help so far! With a little more info, I think we can help you with this final decision as well 🙂

    You have a difficult decision here, but the good news is that you have a wealth of choices! The starting place for an analysis isn’t just the scholarships and total debt, it’s also all the other factors I’ve talked about variously above (such as rankings, job placement in the job type you want, exact cost of debt per month when full COA is considered, etc). So, the starting point for a full analysis is to put together a breakdown of all those factors as they relate to you. Here’s what a full analysis for a single school looks like:

    School:
    COA – $XXX per year (including living expenses etc.)
    Scholarship – $YYY per year
    ______________________________
    Total $ZZZ per year resulting in $WWW in debt after 3 years
    $SSS per month

    Rankings: USNews #XX; ATL: #XX

    Employment score = XX% / Under Employment = XX%
    Employment types:

    XX% Large Firm
    XX% Small Firm
    XX% Public Interest
    XX% Federal/State Clerkship

    Here’s where to pull the data from:

    https://www.lstreports.com/schools (all the employment and job placement data, as well as some cost data)

    https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings

    http://abovethelaw.com/careers/2016-law-school-rankings/

    https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/debtwizard/Pages/Debt-Wizard-Calc… (for debt, but there are many options)

    If you can, please put together a breakdown of each school (spreadsheet or whatever works) so you can line all this up and see it in black and white. That will crystallize the exact cost of the decision in front of you. If you post that data here, I’ll then be better equipped to comment on it as well.

    Thanks!

  • Jordan
    March 27, 2018 at 6:03pm

    Hi Dave,
    I am currently trying to decide between Notre Dame and WashU Law. Notre Dame has offered $40,000 a year scholarship and WashU has offered $38,000 a year scholarship. I want to practice international law possibly in D.C. Any thoughts on what I should do?
    Thanks!

  • Hayley Mise
    March 28, 2018 at 11:38pm

    Hello!

    I am graduating from the University of Toledo this year from undergrad, and their law school has offered me a full ride scholarship. This is extremely tempting, considering my other options are going to Belmont Law with a 33% tuition scholarship or Chicago-Kent law with a $15,000 annual scholarship. So if I go to my other options, I will end up in hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt but would be going to schools at better schools in better locations. I’m not particularly interested in slaving my life away to 70+ hours of work a week after graduating law school but would still like to live a comfortable life style. I’m also a first generation college student so there is a lot for me to comprehend on my own right now so any guidance would be greatly appreciated!

  • Dave Killoran
    March 28, 2018 at 11:39pm

    Hi Jordan,

    Thanks for the message! Two thoughts for you:

    First, just above your post in my last reply I talk about some of the factors to look at when evaluating schools. Please check those points out because I think they are very helpful!

    Second, if you apply those in this case (and I hope you do), look closely at job outcomes, because the bottom line tuition cost on these two schools is pretty similar (maybe ~$1000 a year difference after your scholarships are taken into account). WashU obviously has the higher ranking, but how you feel about each campus will impact your grades, which will impact your job offers. In other words, there is a TON of information about you that I don’t have, and because of that there’s not enough for me to make a call here. But, if you read my replies above, I talk a lot about tough decisions and what to look for when making them. WashU comes up a fair bit, actually! Reading those will help I think, but more than anything applying a full-scale analysis to this decision is the best place to start.

    Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    March 28, 2018 at 11:41pm

    Hi Hayley,

    Thanks for the message! Let’s start by running through the full analysis I’ve posted just above, at: https://blog.powerscore.com/lsat/scholarship-vs.-prestige-when-to-take-t…

    You’ve got some tough choices here, and I want you to be able to see it in black and white first because I suspect that will narrow your options 🙂

    Thanks!

  • Mike
    March 29, 2018 at 2:43am

    I’m feeling pretty torn between a few schools that have already accepted me and given good offers. Those deposit deadlines are approaching, too. So, here’s what I know I’m working with: ASU has offered a full scholarship, as have WashU and Boston U. Boston College has offered $35K/year. My goals at present involve doing relatively lower-paying public interest or government work (I genuinely don’t see me wanting to put in BigLaw hours).
    In my travels I’ve found that: I’m really not sold on spending 3 years (possibly more) in the midwest; I really like Arizona, but am not totally sold on the legal market there; Boston has a great legal market, all of the people with whom I’ve spoken in Boston have been higher on BC than BU (except for the people currently at BU), and Boston is by far the most expensive place to live of the three. Anything else useful that you could add to my considerations here? I am also rather debt averse, and while my wife and I have some money squirreled away, I am unsure of exactly how far that will go. Any thoughts on my decision welcome.

  • Dave Killoran
    March 29, 2018 at 2:04pm

    Hi Mike,

    Thanks for the message! Ok, the first thing you need to do is get a solid grip on the exact financials for each school. you mentioned that “I am also rather debt averse, and while my wife and I have some money squirreled away, I am unsure of exactly how far that will go” and that concerns me because you can’t make a decision without that information. Fortunately, we can get a good idea for each school as to how far it will go 🙂

    About 5 replies above this one, at https://blog.powerscore.com/lsat/scholarship-vs.-prestige-when-to-take-t… , I list out the basic Cost of Attendance calculation, and provide a debt calculator link as well. What you need to do is find that total COA for each school, then determine the monthly payment that results form that. Then come back and post it here–it will help when you can see the exact amount you’ll be paying each month vs what you have in savings. Do the rest of the analysis there too if you can!

    Note also that some schools have debt forgiveness or lowering based on public interest jobs, so that could further impact the debt incomes here.

    One other note: public interest jobs aren’t typically 40 hour jobs (few lawyering jobs are). They may not be 100+ a week like Biglaw, but they will still be substantial.

    Let’s start with getting the analysis I linked above–it will help, I’m certain of that 🙂

    Thanks!

  • Helen
    March 30, 2018 at 1:57pm

    Hi,
    I’m hoping for some help in deciding between BU and Northeastern (I’m still waiting to hear from BC and if I get in that will probably be on the list as well). BU has offered $30,000 a year and Northeastern has offered full tuition, with a deposit deadline of April 2nd (so this is coming down to the wire). I’m not totally sure what kind of law I want to practice, but I do know I want to stay in Boston, at least for a while. I’ll probably go the public interest way (which would put NUSL in front), but also don’t want to paint myself into a corner. I do want my law job to involve science in some way (I have an M.S. already), which could mean environmental law or something with biotech and IP. I got a better, warmer feeling from NUSL than BU, but am worried about the differences in their employment stats (NUSL is about 80% and BU 90%). I don’t currently have any debt and the thought of taking on a lot (~$120,000 for BU vs. ~$60,000 for NUSL) does scare me.
    Any help would be greatly appreciated.
    Thanks,
    Helen

  • Dave Killoran
    April 01, 2018 at 6:55pm

    Hi Helen,

    Thanks for the question! This is a tough one because you are basically asking if the differing job prospects are worth the $60K difference. And the answer is: I don’t know for sure because much of this is down to what you want and how you perform. That said, $60K more for a school in the T25 vs a school around #75 doesn’t sound like the worst deal to me.

    We can see how they stack up against each other here: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/bu/northeastern/. But, those are broad outcomes, and your individual outcome will depend largely on how you perform at each school. Unfortunately we can’t know that yet! If we knew you were going to graduate at the top of the class at NUSL but in the middle at BU, for example, we’d know NUSL was a better choice. So, one factor to consider is how you feel at each school, because that will have an impact (and you seem to have a feeling there already, which is useful).

    Another factor is your job preferences. I’m not sure about the public interest jobs available for science-background attorneys (maybe they are in high demand, maybe not; I don’t know for sure so you should research that). But if you don’t go the public interest route, BU has a *clear* advantage as far as employment (and, very likely, fewer of their grads go into public interest because they don’t have to; the BU placement in larger firms is far better than NUSLs). BU unquestionably gives you better name recognition and overall better prospects when competing for jobs, especially in Boston. That’s a big plus here given that the cost differential isn’t more than 6 figures.

    I realize the above isn’t much help, but you probably have to pin down your career direction first before being able to make a hard decision. If you aren’t able to do that to your satisfaction, the higher BU ranking at a cost of “only” $60K is going to be hard to pass up.

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks and good luck!

  • Mark
    April 03, 2018 at 8:48pm

    Hi,
    I am struggling a bit to make my decision and, having read your insightful comments, am wondering what your thoughts would be.

    I am W/L at most T-14 schools but have received the following offers.

    BU ($90K scholarship)
    WashU ($70K scholarship)
    USC ($125K scholarship)

    Any clear winner here? Are placements at any of these better than others outside of the respective regions?
    I am going directly from my undergraduate program – are any of these more likely to help me get meaningful work experience/build my resume’?

    Many, may thanks.

  • Mark
    April 03, 2018 at 9:00pm

    Allow me to add that I am very fortunate in that costs are not an issue. While I am open to many career paths, a career in academia is nice to dream about.

    Thanks again!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 03, 2018 at 9:18pm

    Hey Mark,

    Thanks for the question! I have a question first: What’s your full COA at each school, factoring in travel, etc? I ask since I don’t know where you live, and these three schools are all across the US (literally!), and I would suspect that your cost of living and travel would vary a fair bit at each.

    If all else is equal, I would be between WashU and USC. While these schools are all ranked very closely, the employment numbers at WashU and USC are better than BU. USC certainly made a great offer to you, but they do cost more than WashU up front, and WashU does slightly better in placement. USC has a great alumni network, however, which can be helpful.

    So, I’d be down to those two schools, but I’d want to know the black and white cost difference before making a final call.

    Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks!

  • Mark
    April 03, 2018 at 11:20pm

    Dear Dave,

    I am very grateful for your comments. The USC scholarship is actually $135K. The full COA differential is
    about $25K over three years, in favor of USC.

    USC – $81K less $41K scholarship = $40K/year
    WashU – $71K less $23K scholarship = $48K/year

    I am on the East Coast and probably would not choose to settle in STL or LA. NYC would be my first choice. Of course, three years could easily change that.

    Thank you again.

    Mark

  • Dominique
    April 04, 2018 at 8:37am

    Hi, Dave.

    Since my previous comment, Loyola has upgraded my scholarship to a full tuition scholarship.
    Here’s the breakdown of both schools according to Law School Transparency

    Tulane:
    Employment score is 62.8%
    And unemployment score is 22%
    They do have a larger alumni network than Loyola, and I’ve been able to reach out to alumni who live in the area that I want to practice (San Francisco)

    Loyola:
    Employment score is 45.4%
    And the unemployment score is 32.4%
    The full scholarship sounds appealing, but I just don’t want my law degree to be limited and I don’t want to be confined to Louisiana. I feel that Tulane is a more nationally recognized school and would be more helpful in getting me a corporate/ip position. I also noticed that in the last class most of Tulane’s students went out of state, with 56/199 remaining in Louisiana.

  • Dominique Williams
    April 04, 2018 at 8:38am

    Hi Dave,
    So…I got into Tulane Law School, ranked (51), and they offered me a $25,000/year scholarship.
    Their tuition and fees cost about $56,000
    My debt would be about $100k coming out of law school if I attend.
    I also got into a much lower ranked school Loyola New Orleans (142, i think?), and they offered me a $36,000 scholarship that would cover 82% of my tuition and fees.
    My debt would be $24k coming out of law school if I were to attend the lower ranked school.
    I’m not exactly sure what type of law I want to practice as of now, but I do know that I do not want to stay in Louisiana.
    What do I do?

  • Dave Killoran
    April 04, 2018 at 4:16pm

    Hi Mark,

    Great, thanks for the extra info! I actually didn’t see the cost comment as it posted while I was replying, so that’s very useful.

    In a case where any possible interest in academia is considered, it’s often about the clerkship jobs that you can obtain. In fact, the “prestige” factor of a school often can be assessed by the clerkship and biglaw hiring percentages, since those tend to be the two most desirable job types. Schools that place well in those arenas are showing that the best employers want their grads. Let’s look at each school:

    USC Clerkships: 3% (includes state)
    USC Biglaw: 38%
    From: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/usc/jobs/

    WashU Clerkships: ~7.5%
    WashU Biglaw: 29%
    From: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/washu/jobs/ and http://law.wustl.edu/career_services/employmentdata/EmploymentSummary-20…

    So, at first glance, things look a bit mixed. USC places better in large firms, but that’s likely a function of being so proximate to the large legal markets in LA and SF. WUSTL does better in clerkships, but that’s likely also a product of being in the midwest and having access to the slightly less competitive courts (as opposed to California, where USC grads compete frequently with Stanford and Berkeley Law grads; that said, a clerkship is a clerkship just like a biglaw job is a biglaw job no matter the reason).

    WashU, not surprisingly, hires better into NYC, but again that’s likely a function of many USC grads deciding to stay in CA (about 89% hired into California).

    So, it’s really a toss up in many ways, and in cases like this, I always give the same advice: pick the school you feel best about on a personal level. Your performance in schools–especially that first 1L term–means everything to hiring, and if you can hit the ground running and do better at one school over the other, that opens all the doors. Both schools are good and can get doors open; you need to choose the one that allow you to perform as well as possible, and how happy and comfortable you are at the school plays a big role in that.

    Tough decision, but I hope that helps. Please let me know what you decide. Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 04, 2018 at 4:29pm

    Hi Dominique,

    Thanks for the question! there are never any sure things, but in this case, you want to look at what that monetary difference translates to when it comes down to jobs, especially since you do not intend to stay in Louisiana. Here’s the overview and job data:

    Loyno: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/loyola-neworleans/
    Tulane: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/tulane/

    In brief:

    Loyno:
    Large Firm 3.7%
    Small Firm 19%
    Federal Clerkship 1.9%
    Public Service 11.6%

    Tulane:
    Large Firm 12.1%
    Small Firm 11.1%
    Federal Clerkship 9%
    Public Service 14.1%

    So, that $75K difference does result in a demonstrable difference in hiring (especially into the more desirable large firms and clerkships). What about where the grads end up?

    Loyno:
    Loyola University New Orleans has reported the location of 98.3% of employed graduates.

    LA: 74.7%
    TX: 2.9%
    FL: 2.9%

    Tulane:
    Tulane University has reported the location of 57.6% of employed graduates.

    LA: 33.7%
    TX: 14.5%
    CA: 9.3%

    You start to get a clearer picture here (although a fair share of Tulane data is missing, it seems, so I’d look more closely into that): Loyno is sending grads into Louisiana at a high rate, whereas Tulane is allowing grads to move away at a much better rate.

    I’m debt averse, but it would seem the outcomes in terms of jobs and locations look a lot better for you at Tulane than Loyno, even with the monetary difference in place.

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Helen
    April 05, 2018 at 3:33pm

    Thanks for the reply, Dave.
    At this point I am leaning (very slightly) towards Northeastern because I did also get a better feeling when I was there, but I’m definitely not discounting BU. I did go and talk with an admissions counselor at BU who basically said “it’s a personal decision”, so it does seem like there is no objective right choice here. I also haven’t yet heard from BC which is very frustrating as their deposit deadline is April 10th.
    Thanks again,
    Helen

  • Kate
    April 05, 2018 at 3:50pm

    Hi!

    I’m really struggling with my decision as I get down to the deadline wire, and would love your advice on this.

    For background: I’ve been offered 135k at Georgetown, 45k at NYU, and will probably receive probably a financial aid package similar to NYU at Columbia, but Columbia is still reviewing aid and scholarships.

    I am interested in government work, so DC could be a good place to be- and of course a difference of 90k is frightening- but I’m having a hard time closing the door on NYU or CLS because of my career plans. I’m planning to start off in Biglaw and then transition to government work- I’m interested in climate law and policymaking in particular. A dream might be State, or an agency, or maybe legislative. Plans could potentially change depending on debt, but I’ll almost certainly start with Biglaw either way- and I would love to leave the door open for clerkships at some point. And since I’m interested in climate law, I might also think about international work.

    I get the sense that name clout could matter more down the line with this sort of plan- especially with CLS’s placement in Biglaw, and NYU’s with clerkships. I will note that all three schools have strong environmental programs and centers for climate study–Columbia’s is especially well regarded.

    Am I completely off base here? Should I just take the money and run? It’s definitely a lot of money, but it’s not a full scholarship- I’d still owe 120k at graduation.

    Thank you!!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 05, 2018 at 9:17pm

    Hi Kate,

    Thanks for the question! Those are great options, and I assume you’ve looked closely at the job reports from each school? Here’s a quick comparison: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/gulc/nyu/columbia/

    Here’s what concerns me about GULC: for a “top” school, their biglaw hiring isn’t stellar. If your plan is to specifically go at Biglaw first, then it’s hard to argue against Columbia as the premier name among your choices. The hiring outcomes aren’t really even close, and you can see inside the numbers as to how elite they are compared to both NYU and Gtown.

    I’m always concerned about debt, but if you go to CLS and perform reasonably well, your outcomes will be far broader than Georgetown without question, and NYU but to a lesser extent.

    There’s no right answer here that anyone else can give you, so carefully consider those career plans and then weigh the debt directly: that’s the cost of having those higher percentages at the end.

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Kate
    April 05, 2018 at 11:22pm

    Thank you for your response, Dave! I really appreciate your insight.

    I will say that Biglaw isn’t my be all end all as a career, but it is definitely a part of my plan, because I hope to be well-positioned for a senior role in public service/government/(more specifically) climate policy one day. Because of that, I had a suspicion that Columbia (or NYU) might better position me to build the career that I want, starting with a more preferable Biglaw placement. From what you’ve said, it sounds as though there’s truth behind that suspicion!

    That being said, I do know that GULC has a good network in DC-where I would likely end up working anyway-and there is of course the opportunity to intern during the semester. But it sounds as though, in order to position myself to be as flexible and far-reaching as I wish, CLS (or perhaps NYU) is still the wiser choice(?)

    Thank you for that helpful link to the LST comparison! I actually hadn’t used that feature before.

    Thanks again,
    Kate

  • Nathan
    April 06, 2018 at 1:43pm

    Hello,

    I have enjoyed reading your article and the conversations in the comment section. After narrowing down my options and excluding offers from other schools, I am still having a bit of difficulty deciding between two law schools. Washington University in St. Louis has offered me a $105,000 scholarship and at Saint Louis University I have been offered a full tuition scholarship. Both schools will have similar cost of living expenses so my decision is whether or not to incur approximately $55,000 in debt to attend WashU.

    WashU was my top choice when I began the application process. My undergraduate degree was earned at SLU and I liked attending school in the St. Louis area. I am comfortable on both campuses and would be happy attending either school.

    I am not sure where I what to practice but I do want to remain in the mid-west or upper south. Also, I am not sure of the type of law I want to practice but am considering looking at JAG corps, prosecution or criminal defense. If I attend SLU I would choose their Healthcare Law program (ranked #1) with a dual degree in Healthcare Administration to increase my employment opportunities. Because the schools’ rankings are so different, I think I would need to set myself apart from other applicants if I attend SLU.

    Are the advantages offered by attending WashU worth $55,000 debt, or would it be better to attend SLU and incur zero debt?

    I appreciate any advise that you can offer me.

    Nathan

  • Dave Killoran
    April 08, 2018 at 6:53pm

    Hi Kate,

    The thing about Biglaw is that it’s easier to get in right at the start, so even though that’;s not your main goal, if it’s a step you intend to use as a springboard to policy-related jobs, you give yourself an advantage with the bigger name.

    I’d also look quite carefully at GULC’s placement rates both in law firms and internships, as well as how many students they hire. It’s a big school, they bring in a lot of transfers each year, and at times their numbers aren’t fantastic.

    I love the DC area and think Georgetown is a great school, so I’m not anti-GULC in any way, it’s just that CLS is definitely a cut above, so you should very carefully look at the costs involved and the general trend of job results.

    Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 08, 2018 at 7:05pm

    Hi Nathan,

    Thanks for the question! In a sense, your choice here is the central discussion we’ve been having throughout the comments, and as you probably noticed, the answer is never black and white. That said, sometimes the shades of grey lean in one direction moreso than the other, and I tend to feel that’s the case here.

    First, a direct comparison of the schools is useful: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/washu/slu/. I want you to look at a few things, such as the employment rating (WashU’s is demonstrably better) as well as things like the large firm rating and clerkships rating. That biglaw/clerkship rating is a sort of measuring stick for how the school is viewed on the bigger stage, and WashU is the clear winner here. Rankings too, show that same positions: WashU is #18 and SLU is #88, and a comparison of the LSAT/GPA numbers shows a significant difference. WashU is getting better students and is viewed in a much more positive light overall.

    So, the real question reduces to, “is that higher ranking and better reputation/placement worth $55K?” I tend to think it is. If it was $100K or $150K, that would be a much tougher question in my opinion, but $55K doesn’t worry me as much, and you can see a *definite* difference in what you are getting.

    One caveat: just keep in mind this is all about how your perform at each school, which is something we can’t know. If you chose SLU and just crushed it, you’d likely end up better off than (or at least the same as) if you just did middle-of-the-pack at WashU.

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Justin
    April 09, 2018 at 7:44pm

    Reading the comments has been helpful in assisting me evaluate my own decision, so thanks for taking the time to offer your advice. Hopefully, you’ll be able to let me know what you think of my options.

    I’ve been offered full scholarships to UNLV, Arizona, and Florida. Also, I have a 36k per year scholarship offer (56k tuition) to Emory. I have no desire to do biglaw after graduation. I’d feel most comfortable living in Las Vegas (I have family and friends there), but I’m fairly confident I’d be content anywhere, if I were able to secure a job that I felt was stimulating and meaningful when I graduated. Additionally, I’m 37 years old, so the thought of an extra 60k in debt (at least) from Emory when I graduate at 41 feels a bit scary.

    I’ve looked at the LST Reports for each school, and they seem comparable. The main exception is that Emory places substantially more students in biglaw, but again, I’m not interested in working for a big law firm. Do you think Emory’s higher ranking would justify an additional 60k-70k in debt for me? Are there big differences between UNLV, Arizona, and Florida that I’m missing? Thanks!

  • Nathan
    April 09, 2018 at 8:25pm

    Thank you for responding! Basically, I had the exact same thoughts, but it was validating to see that someone else agreed with me. I recently went to an admitted student’s day at WashU to get a feel for some of my potential future classmates. Everyone I met seemed pretty nice, and I was fairly impressed by some of the presentations given by the faculty. I will probably end up going there. Again, thank you for the advice. I really appreciate it!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 09, 2018 at 10:05pm

    Great, glad I was able to help! Enjoy WashU and go knock it out of the park 🙂

  • John Woods
    April 10, 2018 at 5:44am

    Dave,

    I am considering attending law school at the University of South Carolina or the University of Miami. I am from the midwest but attended undergrad in the South. I have many familial ties to South Carolina and have an interest in practicing in the state, however I am concerned about the legal market in South Carolina and believe the University of Miami would allow me to pursue job opportunities around the country. I have been granted a scholarship at the university of South Carolina that is equivalent to me receiving in-state tuition. At Miami I was not granted a scholarship at all and would be paying upwards of 50k$ a year. Should I consider going to Miami which is a higher ranked national school or take the money at South Carolina and possibly be limited to practicing in South Carolina and surrounding states?

    Thanks so much for the reply!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 11, 2018 at 12:46am

    Hi John,

    Thanks for the question! This is really where you should put it all in a spreadsheet and get an exact assessment of total yearly costs and job outcomes. South Carolina is about $28K+ a year vs Miami at $50K+ a year, so you are looking at over $65K total difference just from tuition, and that’s not even getting into cost of living. Yet, a comparison of the two schools shows that Miami is only ranked #65 and USC is #88. That’s a heck of a lot to pay for a school only 20+ places higher but still not even in the T50. And, employment-wise, Miami isn’t world beating when compared to USC either: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/miami/southcarolina/. I’d also look at the job placement for both schools, because that’s clearly on your mind as well.

    I’m not telling you what to do here, but after looking at all the expenses, you need to see if the 23 places higher ranking is worth the tens of thousands of dollars in cost difference. I don’t think it would be for many people, but this isn’t many people, it’s you. You have to go to the school where you will feel best and most comfortable.

    I hope that helps. Thanks!

  • Paul
    April 11, 2018 at 9:56pm

    Hi,

    I am going to USC and it is my freshman year. USC has this program where if you can finish your undergrad in 3 years, while maintaining a 3.8 GPA minimum, then you can not take LSAT and go to their law school. You apply for the program in your junior year, and typically 6 or 7 students apply. There is no set quota, but usually the student that does not get in just has not done interesting stuff on their resume or failed to show interest in USC Law.

    Would you recommend doing this USC 3+3 program, or hold a high GPA and take the LSAT and apply to more law schools?

    The 3+3 program in the end only saves me about $2,000 because I have a lot of aid. Not saving $75,000 like other students here.

  • Dave Killoran
    April 11, 2018 at 11:23pm

    Hi Paul,

    Thanks for the question! I’m familiar with the 3+3, and I always tell Freshman the same thing: wait and see. Over the next year or two a lot can happen, but there are two things to keep an eye on (assuming your GPA makes the minimum:

    Your LSAT score: not now, but in a year, take a practice LSAT under timed conditions and see how you do. the appeal of the 3+3 is that you avoid taking the LSAT, but if you have a 3.8+ AND a high LSAT, then you are throwing away a lot of money by going this route. So, we need to get a better sense of how you will do on the LSAT in a few years (again, don’t worry about it now–it’s premature). On the other hand, if you struggle with the LSAT (and it’s a tough test that many smart people find difficult), then perhaps this is a great way to get in through the back door.

    How you like USC: after three years at the same school, you might want a change or alternately you might love it. You can’t make a decision on that now, you have to give it some time. But keep an eye on how you like the school and the environs as that can have an affect on your decision.

    The best part of your position is that you have time and don’t have to decide now. So, for the time being, focus on keeping those grades high: they are a necessary condition to you even having this option.

    Please let me know if that helps and good luck!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 18, 2018 at 4:42pm

    Hi Justin,

    Sorry for the delay in replying! Yours is a tough question, and I’m not sure there’s a clearly right—or wrong—direction to take here. The base comparison between Arizona, Florida, and UNLV shows a lot of similarities, although you are correct about the biglaw placement differential at UNLV (on the other hand, they perform better on the clerkship front, which could partially be a product of location: see https://www.lstreports.com/compare/arizona/florida/unlv/). I will note that Florida is a larger school than either Arizona or UNLV, and graduates just under 3 times as many students each year (despite that, UF is on an upward trend and should see some rise in the rankings in the next few years).

    So, assuming for a moment that those schools are pretty similar, let’s look at two things you said:

    1. ” I’m 37 years old, so the thought of an extra 60k in debt (at least) from Emory when I graduate at 41 feels a bit scary.”

    I think this is an important consideration, because your earning horizon is shorter than for younger grads. Given all else you’ve mentioned, I have a hard time justifying taking on debt when you can avoid it by going to other schools where you’d feel just as comfortable. Yes, Emory does well at biglaw, but the rest of their employment numbers aren’t so great as to suggest it’s a great trade to take on debt.

    2. “I’d feel most comfortable living in Las Vegas (I have family and friends there)…”

    I am a big fan of attending the school where you will feel comfortable, since comfort often helps ease that transition you go through as a 1L. I like the fact that you’d be content anywhere (which is probably also a partial product of you being 37) but it sounds like you are already familiar with Las Vegas and have a support system there. If you can perform well out of the gate, it makes a HUGE difference to your employment prospects, because 1L grades are everything when it comes to jobs.

    I think that your base question was about passing up Emory, and while I don’t have all the data, what I see tells me that it wouldn’t be a bad choice for you to do that. As for the remaining schools, I see advantages to each one, so it really comes down to how you feel about each, but a free education from any one of them is hard to beat 🙂

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Paul
    April 19, 2018 at 1:40am

    Hi,

    Thank you that is very helpful! I have thought about waiting and seeing, but there is some commitment to it. I came in to school with a lot of AP credit, but I still need to do 20 units a semester to graduate on the 3 year track. I would take summer courses, but I need to work and USC has limited financial aid during the summer. So, I can commit to 20 units, which is basically only doing my major and no fun electives, or I can decide to tone it down and enjoy the four years and apply normally. I may try studying for the LSAT this summer and test it out.

    Thank you again,

    Everest

  • Dave Killoran
    April 19, 2018 at 4:02pm

    That makes sense. Coincidentally, this might help you a bit: https://blog.powerscore.com/lsat/how-should-freshman-and-sophomores-in-c…. You will want to speed up the process there, but it gives you some steps to take now that might help.

    Good luck!

  • Alessandra Stevens
    April 24, 2018 at 1:17pm

    Hi Dave thank you so much for your article and the kind comments to everyone’s questions.
    I have a bit of an odd decision in front of me, but it started as a money vs. prestige question so I hope this is the right place for this question.
    I’m a non-traditional law student (will be turning 30 in the fall) who has been working in non-profit administration & policy advocacy since graduating in 2011. My aim in going back to school now is to get access to more substantive policy work at national organizations based in NYC, D.C. etc. It is fairly clear to me that to do that I need a JD.
    I got into UCLA with a small scholarship, but still would need 90K in loans just to cover tuition, not taking into account COL. Given that I will have fewer earning years, and am committed to working in public interest, I’m concerned about taking on that level of debt.
    I also got into Northeastern Law with a full ride. I was attracted to NUSL because of its public interest focus, health law concentration and co-op program. However I’m nervous about the employment statistics with only about 57% employment after graduation.
    Northeastern is also attractive because my fiancé is moving to Boston for her graduate degree…
    I also applied to public health degrees suspecting correctly that my near perfect GRE score would mean I was a more attractive candidate. I also have the option of completing an MPH for free from a prestigious institution and reapplying to law school again in two years with better scores/credentials.
    However, that would mean graduating law school at 35. I’m wondering if it is wise to take my free education at Northeastern and run with it, or listen to friends in law school telling me I should try for T-20 if I want to get a job at the orgs i’m interested in.
    Any advice would be most appreciated!
    Thank you!

  • Justin
    April 24, 2018 at 6:49pm

    Thanks so much for your thoughts on my situation! Your assessment makes complete sense to me. I think I’m going to opt to go to UNLV. Las Vegas feels like the best fit for me, and I’m very comfortable with the thought of living there after law school. Additionally, UNLV offered me an extra 5K per year on top of my full scholarship. Thanks again for your help!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 24, 2018 at 9:07pm

    Great, glad I could help, and that’s awesome that they offered you even more money! Congrats!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 24, 2018 at 9:17pm

    Hi Alessandra,

    This is a difficult question because your post-grad aims are so specific. However, it’s difficult for me since I have limited experience with that sector; for you, there’s an avenue that can help make this decision much easier. What I would do is look at people who have the jobs you seek. you already know a JD is more or elss a requirement, so now go a step farther adn look at the schools that they graduated from. And, weight the more recent grads more heavily in your analysis. someone who got a law degree 30 years ago is far less of a barometer than someone who just got their degree 5 years ago. I suspect that if there is a T20 bias within the profession, you’ll pick up on it rather quickly, and if there is not one, you’ll see that quickly as well.

    On that note, remember that general law grads have been trained in recent years to focus on top schools as the job market tightened. That could very well be the case in your policy field, but it might not be also. that’s why looking at job holders will give you clear insight into how the field views these degrees.

    As for the MPH degree and then law school, you are right to be concerned about pushing your horizon back even further. I would make the same analysis here, and observe how many people with those degrees are doing the work you want to do, and, equally important, how many are doing that work without that degree. The combination is so specialized that no one can give you a good sense of this other than people in the field.

    I hope that helps. Please let me know, thanks!

  • Tori H
    April 25, 2018 at 12:39am

    Good evening!

    I am writing because I feel totally stuck between two choices for law school: University of Cincinnati, and Cleveland-Marshall College of Law. The benefits of each one seem to really balance out, and I am having trouble figuring out which is better. I am aspiring to work in the public interest area.

    At UC, I would be receiving a $20,000/year scholarship. Based on my calculations using AccessLex for Cost of Living and my current loans, I would owe a little less than $90K total after undergrad and law school. The school is ranked 65 in the nation, and is a top 40 public law school. Additionally, I have been offered a paid fellowship with the Innocence Project for the summer after my 1L and part time during my 2L, which is the exact type of work I would really want to do after graduating.

    At Cleveland Marshall, I have been offered a guaranteed full scholarship as a part of the Dean’s Law and Leadership Fellowship, so long as I maintain good academic standing. I could live at home for free, or very cheap at a friend’s apartment, which would allow me to start paying off my current undergraduate loans. I also just really love Cleveland, and would have a hard time leaving! However, this school is ranked far lower (114) and lacks a lot of the same established experiential programs that are at Cincinnati. They also have lower employment statistics (50.2% score on lst reports, vs 71.2% at Cincinnati).

    My main concern is that by taking on more debt at Cincinnati, I will be unable to take the jobs I am most interested in because of my payments. However, if I attend Cleveland Marshall, I fear that I will not be able to find the employment that I desire. I am at a complete toss up right now, and would love any insights into what might be the better path!

    Best,
    Tori

  • Alessandra Stevens
    April 25, 2018 at 10:10am

    Hi Dave,
    Thank you for the swift reply! I apologize, it is a bit of a specialized question. I would say amongst more recent grads it is true there is a T20 if not a T10 bias. Having gotten into UCLA and waitlisted at a T10 I think I could get into that tier if I reapplied in two years, but probably would have to take on debt. I am trying to weigh the opportunity cost of waiting and graduating later vs. going now to a lower ranked school with somewhat concerning employment numbers. Of Northeastern’s grads who are employed, the vast majority (25%) are employed in public interest, so that is good, but still a 28% underemployment rate is concerning to me.
    As to your second question, many people working in my area of interest have both the JD & MPH, with some only having one of the other, but the vast majority who only have one degree have the JD, and those that have both typically only worked for two years not seven before going back to school, so are graduating at 30 with two degrees. I have gotten mixed advice so far as to whether my experience will help or hurt me. ( As a note if I didn’t say above, I would also be getting a full ride for the MPH)
    Can I prevail upon your expertise in the changing nature of the legal job market? My thought is that if I wait and reapply more law schools will be accepting the GRE which will help my numbers, but also presumably means there will be many more applicants who also have great GRE scores and passable LSAT scores. I am trying to weigh whether this means my chances are better or worse. Also, I know there has been a huge bump in law applications this year, and it seems more people accepting offers, meaning if I go to school now I will be entering the job market at the same time as that pool, and from a less competitive school. But if I wait, I’ll be graduating two years later and those people will already be in the job market.

    Given all this what do you think is the strategic decision?
    Thank you,
    Alessandra

  • Andrew
    April 25, 2018 at 9:08pm

    Hi,

    Thank you for your posts, this page has been very helpful. I was hoping you could give me some advice for my situation. I see you’ve already addressed several issues that are very similar to mine and I’ve read the posts for reference, but my situation is a little different and I’m wondering what you have to say.

    I want to go to school in New York City and I also plan to work there after graduating. I’d be finishing school at the age of 27. I am between Fordham (which would leave me with about $150,000 of debt after graduation) and St. John’s. (which would leave me with about $23,000 in debt after graduation). This is after negotiating with schools so these are final offers. I live in the area and living expenses/transport are basically irrelevant in this decision.

    I’ve read the LST reports and I see Fordham places more in Biglaw. Biglaw is currently appealing to me and it is something that I would like to have the option of pursuing, but I am not committed to it. I am much more concerned with having better legal career opportunities in general, not just Biglaw opportunities. I believe that Fordham would generally provide me with greater legal career opportunities but I’m having a difficult time determining whether those extra opportunities are worth an additional $127,000. I saw from an earlier post that in your opinion, finishing Fordham with about $195,000 in debt would probably not be worth it. But here in my case the debt would be somewhat smaller and I’m wondering if you think that changes my situation at all.

    Thank you so much for your help!

  • HELP A
    April 25, 2018 at 9:23pm

    I received full tuition scolarships at St. Johns U and Penn State Law (The newer campus). I got into U of MD and American U as well. I am still waiting to hear from GULC. Everyone wants their deposit RIGHT NOW and I’ve already extended the deadline multiple times. I am interested in doing Law in DC as well as NYU potentially. I am draw to UMD because of the great faculty staff and alumni base and I am interested in health law. Does Penn State pull well and does the name recognition of Penn State help?! Should I just defer to next year and try taking the test again and try getting into my dream school Columbia?

    Do networks matter more than a school’s ranking? Is St. Johns well regarded along the East Coast? Can UMD pull a Big Law Firm? Should I just wait for GULC? I really don’t know what to do.

  • Alessandra Stevens
    April 25, 2018 at 9:36pm

    Complicating matters further: I was just waitlisted at two top 5 schools. I’m very (very) debt averse given i’ve been working in the non-profit world and know what kind of salary I can expect, but if those come through it seems hard to turn down….

  • Nikki Heagney
    April 25, 2018 at 10:00pm

    Hi Andrew – take my advice with a grain of salt but I think I’m the poster above you’re referring to with respect to fordham. I decided to go to fordham and it has a very high placement in biglaw if thats what you want to do. I think 30-40%. There is less pressure to get a high gpa to interview with the big firms – I think the gpa “cut off” is about 3.3 (b+) whereas I am assuming its higher at St. Johns (meaning more pressure to get the best grades). There is always pressure for good grades – but its comforting knowing that you can get straight B+ and still get an interview with a large firm. I also know a 3L who got terrible grades in her first year and was able to get a biglaw interview (and offer) in her third year. Not ideal – but she’s shown me it’s possible. Fordham is very well connected and there are a ton of firms who come to interview on campus. I love the city, the campus, the people. Upperclassmen are so incredibly helpful. Just my 2 cents – I’m rushing because its finals time and its incredibly stressful but I’ve met a lot of great people here and have been afforded a lot of opportunities and if you’d like to talk further let me know and I’ll give you my email. N

  • Dave Killoran
    April 25, 2018 at 11:36pm

    Hi Alessandra,

    To be honest, I’m not sure what the best strategic decision is, mainly because there are so many moving parts here, and what you’ve told me about your field isn’t definitive enough to make a judgment. So instead, I’ll tell you what we *think* will happen in the legal field as well as with law school applications in general. hopefully, that will give you a better perspective on your choices!

    First, there has been an increase in applicants this year, but the problem has moreso been that the applicants in the 165 to 180 range increased significantly. So, you had more applicants but more applicants in particular with great LSAT scores. Lots of reasons for that, but the new no-limit–LSAT policy helped a lot there. Next year we expect that bubble to get smaller, meaning we expect about the same number of applicants but not as many in that high score range.

    Second, despite that increase this year, law schools are still not at the capacity they were 6-7 years ago, and so they have the ability to take more applicants. In other words, they can meet increased demand, and that mitigates the problem that larger applicant pools pose to applicants in general.

    Third, if the ABA stays on course, the GRE will begin to become more accepted. That means that right now it’s still really about LSAT scores, but in 2-3 years the GRE will be much closer to equal footing. If you went for that MPH now, if you tried law school later then you’d see a benefit from those high GREs.

    Last, the legal field in general is name conscious and always has been, and you’ve already seen that in the employment stats you have cited. The bigger names *tend* to get better overall jobs, but keep in mind that it is always about individual performance. The top grads at Northeastern do just fine, and the bottom grads at UCLA will struggle. 1L grades are the world, and no matter where you go that will be the key to the job opportunities you have.

    In the final analysis, I don’t think I can make a definitive call here. There are too many variables floating around, and I feel like you have so much more of the relevant info (including your exact debt tolerance, your true job desires, etc). That’s a sort of cop-out on my part, but I think I’d be remiss to state a strong opinion when I don’t have one that I feel certain about 🙂

    Hopefully this helped a little bit though. Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 25, 2018 at 11:39pm

    Thanks for weighing in Nikki, and you make an excellent point about grades! I’m also glad things are working out, which is great proof to everyone that you have to go with your gut feeling in all of these choices 🙂

    Good luck on finals!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 26, 2018 at 12:09am

    Hi Andrew,

    I was glad to see Nikki weigh in with some thoughts, because there is no substitute for hearing from someone at the school, especially someone who faced a similar decision.

    Going back to my comment above in reply to Nikki, the point I made was that it wasn’t an easy choice, and I didn’t feel Cardozo was a slam dunk by any means. As I said, there literally was “no best answer.” Your case is actually not much different. The thing with Nikki’s choice was she was looking at an extra $100K to attend Fordham, which, as it turns out, is very much the same situation you are in with Fordham and St. Johns. I’ve stated elsewhere that I’m debt averse when it comes to these decisions, but you also have to know exactly what you are paying for, as well as whether that’s worth it to *you.* There are times when paying more is somewhat obviously the best decision and others where it is not. In your case, I get the feeling you are leaning toward Fordham since the biglaw employment numbers are better (an undeniable point, as seen here: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/stjohns/fordham/) and more or less want to know if it’s okay to take on that $127K. There’s a good chance it could be, and also a chance it’s not—this is the unfortunate problem everyone faces when making these decisions. The one advantage you have over Nikki is that even though your margin costs are the same (the $100K), your overall cost is lower since you will come out with $127K total. That figure may be reasonable enough to you to make it worth the much better big firm/clerkship chances.

    I suppose that’s a long-winded way of saying that the lower overall debt does make a difference in my opinion, although again you have to be comfortable with what that looks like on a monthly basis. I always say plan for the worst as far as 1L grades, that way you know the worst possible outcome, but fortunately most people don’t end up in the worst-case scenario.

    I’m not sure that’s a perfectly clear answer, but hopefully it helps a bit. Please let me know. Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    April 26, 2018 at 12:29am

    Hi Tori,

    Thanks for the question, and good job on using AccessLex–they have some good info 🙂

    There are several points in this decision that I find interesting:

    1. Cleveland-Marshall’s employment numbers: they aren’t great. You made note of it, and for other readers, the head-to-head comparison is here: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/cincinnati/cleveland/. I think you are right to be very wary, although a free education is certainly a great counter-balance to those numbers.

    2. The Cleveland-Marshall attrition rate. It’s over 5% yearly (7.4% last year), and that to me is always a bad sign. Good schools don’t lose students at that rate, and you can see the UC number was just 1% last year. They work to keep the struggling students and not many of the top student transfer out.

    3. The total debt at UC: it’s under $100K, so that makes it a bit more manageable. If we were looking at $130K or 150K, then I’d be far more concerned, but your number isn’t entirely unmanageable.

    4. The fact that both UC has set you up to have great 1L summer experience with a paid fellowship. This is hard to beat if it’s what interests you! And, obtaining that 1L Summer job is for most people, fraught with tension. Here they have you covered.

    5. The fact that you love Cleveland. I’m a believer that people perform best when they are happy and comfortable, and Cleveland looks like a great setup for you. Could you get into a similar groove at Cincy? Probably, but only you know for sure.

    Overall, I have some doubts about CM Law but they have risen in recent rankings, which is a sign they are working on it (and their offer to you reflects that). I also think UC is a solid school, and there is a lot to be said for having better options coming out of school. Is that worth $90K? I’d be inclined to think so, but critics would point out that at CM, even if you can’t find a job you still aren’t saddled with a debt load. So, overall I lean towards UC, but consider that debt carefully.

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Andrew
    April 26, 2018 at 8:10pm

    Hi Nikki and Dave,

    Thank you so much for posting, I really appreciate the input! This is certainly a tough decision with no clear answer! But any information I can get will surely help.

    It’s interesting to hear about Fordham‘s lower pressure to get high grades to get a Biglaw interview. However, I’m basing my decision between Fordham and St. John’s more on what opportunities each school offers in the private sector that aren’t Biglaw because I can’t count on being at the top (or top 30%) at either school. I see a lot is possible at Fordham with the example of the student with poor grades who got a great job offer anyways, but I’m assuming that is an exception rather than the norm. I’d be able to make a more informed decision if I had a better understanding of what can roughly be expected by finishing towards the middle of my class at each school. Do you have any insight into this? I unfortunately don’t have a very clear picture of this despite previous research and talking to admissions. I know this is a pretty tricky and specific question which is tough to answer, but any information would be greatly appreciated!

    I have looked into what the worst case scenario would probably look like going to Fordham and it seems manageable although certainly not desirable.

    Also, Nikki- since you decided to go to Fordham, would you mind if I ask what your thought process and rationale for doing so was despite the debt you were going to incur?

    I can talk by email too if that’s easier!
    Thank you so much!

  • Nikki Heagney
    April 26, 2018 at 9:08pm

    Hi Andrew,

    I was kind of of the mindset when applying that I would go to the best school I got into no matter the debt. Then, when the actual number-crunching made the debt seem more real, is when I starting second guessing that choice and came on here to check it out. I decided to go with my gut and go to the best school I got into (which was fordham) but I can’t say I would have followed my gut if I was accepted at a higher ranked school with 300k debt. Like Dave said its whats best for YOU – and I think for me I was willing to take the risk that I might end up paying my debt off longer if I didn’t get the grades. If you’re really not willing to take the risk then don’t do it just for the name because years from now unless its ivy league not many people care about the name anyway.

  • Dave Killoran
    April 26, 2018 at 9:23pm

    Hi Andrew,

    Thanks for the reply! The answer you seek here isn’t capable of being given in a specific fashion, and the reason is that the legal hiring environment can’t be predicted three years out with any accuracy. If things are great, more doors will be open whereas if things are bad then fewer doors will be open, as you would expect. However, that said, the typical belief is that, in comparison, graduating in the middle of the class at Fordham would result in generally better opportunities than graduating in the middle of the class at St. Johns regardless of the market (unless it’s so bad that no jobs at all are available, as in a major economic crisis, which is unlikely).

    I agree that the worst case scenario isn’t desirable, but if it is manageable then that’s a valuable piece of information for you as you ponder this decision.

    Thanks!

  • Andrew
    May 01, 2018 at 4:16pm

    Thank you so much!

  • Dave Killoran
    May 05, 2018 at 7:33pm

    Hi Help A,

    So sorry, but I missed these questions somehow! I will try to help, but there are so many questions here and some of them are so complex here I would suggest you think about talking to an admissions professional for more focused and specific advice. I’m not sure I can cover all the bases here is why 🙂

    First, can UMD pull a biglaw job? Yes, but not at the rate of other schools: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/maryland/jobs/. That’s 9% of their grads hitting biglaw. As you sit here debating the possibilities, I would suggest you do a deep dive into the hiring data at each school, because you are looking at hard $$ vs job outcomes decisions in the coming months.

    Does Penn State pull well in general? Dickinson’s stats can be found here: http://www.abarequireddisclosures.org/EmploymentOutcomes.aspx, and the numbers aren’t amazing. In 2017, there were 61 grads, and 33 practiced in Pennsylvania, and 4 in NY. 4 went to firms with 100 or more attorneys, and 12 went to clerkships (3 federal, 9 stats/local). Everyone knows the name Penn State, but Penn State–either as Penn State Law or Dickinson–is though of as being in the upper echelon and the stats reflect that. If you are looking to go outside Pennsylvania, it’s possible but not easy.

    St. Johns is next, and they do a bit better with large firm hiring–17.8%, but overall hiring is great. St Johns can be tough because you have multiple other schools in NYC (Columbia, NYU, Fordham for starters, not to mention Cornell in-state) with better reputations.

    As you already know, GULC outpaces all these schools, so it’s worth waiting, and often students will hedge by depositing at their second choice school while they wait for their top remaining choice. That is probably our best call here.

    If waiting a year and retaking is an option, it might make a difference on two fronts if you can obtain a higher LSAT score: you might be able to get into a “better” school and you can obtain better and more robust financial aid packages.

    Go through the jobs reports on the 509 disclosures site and LSTReports–take a close look at what each school is offering you vs what the job outcomes are. that is your best guide here.

    Good luck!

  • Nick
    June 15, 2018 at 5:09pm

    Hi Dave!

    I am a law student from Singapore. I graduated from the National Uni of Singapore recently with a law degree and reasonable grades in law school (not too bad but nothing spectacular. I will be doing the bar exam here in Singapore and then my pupillage at an intl law firm.

    My long term goal however is to move to the US and practice there. As such, I am hoping to go do an LLM first (aiming for Northwestern, BU or UCLA). I hope to do well in the LLM and make contacts at the uni so that I am eventually able to transfer to the JD program. Do you think this is a good idea?

  • Payton
    June 18, 2018 at 8:57pm

    Hi Dave,

    What an appropriate article for the thousands of students who are grappling with this very question! I am wrestling between a full ride (with a stipend and healthcare) to the University of Tennessee (ranked 65th) or sticker price admittance of 55k to Emory Law in Georgia (ranked 22nd). I moved to Tennessee to attend undergrad and have since gotten married so I will likely remain in the region, though not neccesarily TN, to practice. I was lucky enough to have a full ride for my undergrad and my husband and I currently have no debt. What do you think?

  • Dave Killoran
    June 19, 2018 at 3:41pm

    Hi Nick,

    Thanks for the message, and hello to you in beautiful Singapore! Let me ask you a question here: is your idea to get an LLM based on the fact that you want to keep working while waiting to get into a JD program, or is it solely aimed at using that to get into a JD program? If it is solely to transfer, that is a viable pathway, but do your research at each school and find out how many students they typically take from the LLM program, and whether they will take them without an LSAT score (some do such as UCLA, some don’t).

    So, as long as the school takes a reasonable portion of LLMs, it’s a plan that can work well.

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks and good luck!

  • Dave Killoran
    June 19, 2018 at 4:01pm

    Hi Payton,

    Congrats on the acceptances! This is another textbook example of the free education vs debt and a “better” name decision.

    First, just for anyone reading, here’s the LST comparison: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/emory/tennessee/

    You see some interesting things there, namely that the employment scores aren’t all that dissimilar and that Tenn does better on under-employment. Emory places better into bigger firms (no surprise given the name), but Tennessee outpaces them on federal clerkships. So, you can see the different profiles, but it’s not a case where Emory is simply blowing Tennessee away.

    Second, geographically speaking, Emory is the bigger name in law circles, but these are both Southern schools and people know the Tennessee name as well. So, you don’t get as much of a name-boost with Emory that you might with a different school despite the higher ranking.

    Last, the offer Tennessee made to you is very good, since stipends aren’t often included. Emory, of course, won’t just be $55K a year, and you can see that with COL factored in (and it’s Atlanta so it’s not cheap), the estimated price tag is around $295K. That’s a high price for a school not in the T14!

    You ultimately have to make the decision based on how you feel about each school (which makes a difference since your comfort usually translates into better performance), but looking at this from a purely numerical standpoint I have a hard time seeing how Emory is worth almost $300K more than Tennessee.

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Robert Josephs
    June 26, 2018 at 4:41pm

    Hi Dave, I’ve got an NC question on which I’m hoping you might be able to provide some guidance. I didn’t get into Duke, like many others, but I did get a full tuition scholarship to NCCU, also in Durham. I’m on the waitlist at UNC as well, and took the June LSAT as a means of getting admitted there or getting money for Central.

    I plan on staying in the state after graduating, but am not sure about which field of law in which I’d like to practice. My question is this, assuming I get off the waitlist: is it worth taking anything less than a full tuition scholarship from UNC to go to a Top50 school in the same area, even if it means paying full ticket price? Especially in state, the difference between Duke and Central might be pronounced, but I’m not sure if the gap between NCCU and UNC is worth three years of tuition. Central has had some issues with the state bar though, and kicked out 110 students of this class in order to get better with their bar passage rate. I’ve reached out to a number of legal professionals throughout the system to get a good opinion from them, but I was curious if you had a strong opinion either way. Thanks in advance for the help!

    These are the LST figures for the two schools: cost of living for both would be similar, obviously both schools have great programs for social service, but these are the other stats:

    UNC: $23,049 a year tuition
    NCCU: $19,040.

    Bar passage rate: UNC: 80%
    NCCU: 55%

    LST employment score: UNC 67.7%
    NCCU 21%

    Underemployment score: UNC 17.4%
    NCCU 39.9%

    Large firm score: UNC 24%
    NCCU 4%

    Small firm score: UNC 7%
    NCCU 14%

    Clerkship score: UNC 6.7%
    NCCU 1.2 %

  • Dave Killoran
    June 30, 2018 at 6:38pm

    Hey Robert,

    Thanks for reaching out! As a Duke grad myself, I typically have strong feelings about schools in the region 🙂 However, somewhat surprisingly perhaps, I tend to be a fan of UNC (I spent a fair bit of time in Chapel Hill as an undergrad and liked the students and campus quite a bit).

    In this instance, I have real concerns about NCCU. You are right that they have been seriously struggling, and they are out of compliance with the ABA (https://www.wral.com/nccu-law-school-out-of-compliance-with-standards-am… and https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article211782004.html). This is a very serious problem, and suggests the issues at the school are not just surface ones. The ABA has been cracking down recently, and some schools have closed entirely, leaving many students high and dry. These factors alone lead me to tread with great caution.

    Even if these issues weren’t present, their employment rate is abysmal. A free education and very low hope of being employed isn’t a great outcome, especially with looming accreditation issues. Normally you want that free tuition to go along with a school that at least gives you decent employment stats, but 30.1% is rough (those are the 2017 numbers: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/nccu/unc/). Take a look at the LSAT/GPA stats as well: these are two very different student bodies in terms of prior achievement.

    UNC on the other hand gives you a name that everyone recognizes, a much larger alumni network, and of course employment stats that are night and day with NCCU, plus no accreditation problem and none expected.

    So, for me, it would be tough to pass up UNC in favor of a Tier 4 school on the edge of compliance. I hope UNC comes through with some money for you if they pull you off the waitlist, though!

    Please let me know if this helps. Thanks!

  • Robert Josephs
    July 07, 2018 at 5:21pm

    Thank you for the help! I’ll keep you updated as we get into August with what happens!

  • Michael
    August 20, 2018 at 6:44pm

    Hey Dave–huge fan, thanks for all you guys have done for my LSAT score. Seeing as this thread is over a year old, I don’t count on you seeing this but hey, who knows?

    I’m asking this question early because I’m guessing it’s one I’m gonna need answered later in this cycle.
    Planning a move to the Bay Area later this year, and considering Hastings and Berkeley. With my stats, I can comfortably get into Hastings, Berkeley I’m probably like 50-60% chance.

    If I get in to Berkeley, it’s unlikely I’d get any kind of substantial aid from them. Based on my LSAT/GPA (above 75th % for Hastings), I’d expect a decent $$ package from them.

    At what point would a discount at Hastings carry more weight than the prestige of Berkeley?

  • Dave Killoran
    August 20, 2018 at 9:50pm

    Hi Michael,

    Thanks for the message and the kind words! And welcome to the Bay Area later this year–I have family out here and spend a lot of time in the area. If you’ve never lived here before, you’ll love it 🙂

    The question you ask is a tough one, mainly because there are so many scenarios that could play out. Let’s say you get no money form Berkeley, then I’d think that if you get less than 50% tuition from Hastings, I’d start strongly looking at Berkeley. In other words, how much more will Berkeley cost you in comparison? If it’s not much more than Hastings, I’d go to Berkeley. If it’s a significant amount more, that’s when I’d start looking at Hastings more seriously. I realize that’s about as loose a guideline as you can get, but at this point, that is the general framework I’d be operating under.

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Nick
    August 25, 2018 at 10:14am

    Hi Dave! Thank you so much for your reply!

    Just to update, the LLM pathway is sortof like my back up plan to get into the JD program (because in truth the conversion rate from LLM to JD is historically low in most top schools). Instead, now I will be focusing on applying to the JD program straight. I’ll be taking the LSAT this Oct and hope to get a good score.

    But I was just wondering about a few other questions:
    1. Does the fact that I have a prior undergraduate law degree (LLB) actually enable me to apply for a US JD? I emailed Northwestern and they said yes, but I think Harvard does not allow it.

    2. How would my grades in law school as an undergraduate be seen? I understand that each school posts a rough GPA but that is in relation to the US metrics. What are my chances if I did decent in law School in Singapore? Supposedly National Uni of Singapore (NUS), Faculty of Law is the best in Asia – how does the fact that I was an above average (slightly above B) but not very spectacular be viewed in the US (in truth, though NUS enjoys a sterling reputation in Asia, I doubt people in the US have heard of it)?

    3. Does the fact that I would have qualified for a Singapore bar, have done my pupillage at an international law firm and have a whole lotta legal internships help in my application?

    4. What sort of LSAT score should I set as my target if I wish to get into one of the Top 20 Law schools in US?

    5. Lastly, does the fact that I am an international student put me at a disadvantage compared to US applicants?

    These are a lot of questions but I sincerely hope to tap into your expertise for this matter. Thanks for your earlier reply again and have a good weekend.

    With Best Regards,
    Nick

  • Dave Killoran
    August 25, 2018 at 11:04pm

    Hi Nick,

    Thanks for the reply! We’ve moved into some very specific questions, and as you can see, different schools have different policies. So, for questions #1 and #2, I have to defer to the schools you are applying to–they are the best place to get specific answers.

    #3: Yes, it will help, without question 🙂

    #4: Same scores as any US applicant: mid- to upper-160s into the 170s.

    #5: No, plenty are accepted every year!

    Thanks!

  • Nick
    September 20, 2018 at 8:43pm

    Dear Dave,

    Thank you for your reply and guidance! Maybe what I am asking next is off topic for this forum, but how would you recommend I go about for the Logical reasoning section on the LSAT.

    As a bit of background, my LSAT is in 3 weeks time and I feel alright with the RC and LG sections (thanks to your Bibles ofc; Big fan here!). However, LR is a section I am having trouble with –> usually I average around 16-19 per section, with a couple wrong and maybe missing out the last 3qns.

    I hope to hit at least 20 average before the test date. how would you recommend I go about? I have your LR Bible and have gone through it once and I have recently ordered the LR Bible Workbook which should arrive soon. Looking forward to your response!

    With Best Regards,
    Nick

  • Dave Killoran
    September 21, 2018 at 8:51pm

    Hey Nick,

    Thanks for the question! LR is such a big topic that it can be difficult to get a handle on it. The workbook will help, but in the meantime, start by reading the following:

    https://blog.powerscore.com/lsat/retaking-the-lsat-what-to-do-differentl…

    and focus on items 1, 3, 4.LR.A, and 6 in there.

    Getting better at LR can be a real grind, mainly because you need to do a lot of questions and deeply review those questions until you see the patterns in what they are doing. To help do that, track everything and revisit questions frequently–there is a ton of info that can be squeezed out of every question!

    Good luck!

  • Nick
    October 31, 2018 at 3:35pm

    Dear Dave,

    Many thanks for your reply. Just as an update. I got 163 for my LSAT, which is frankly lesser than I wanted (i was hoping at least for a 165). With that said, what do you think are my chances for BU law and USC? and should I apply for early decision to one of the Top 20 schools?

    looking forward to your response.

    With Best Regards,
    Nick

  • Nick
    October 31, 2018 at 4:47pm

    Dear Dave,

    One last thing, if I were to apply for an early decision application, how would you recommend that i apply? and is it possible to apply ED to more than 1 school? Sincerely appreciate your help!

    With Best Regards,
    Nick

  • Dave Killoran
    November 01, 2018 at 6:56pm

    Hi Nick,

    Typically if the school has a *binding* ED contract, you can only apply to that one school.

    also, here’s some info on the value of ED:

    https://blog.powerscore.com/lsat/applying-to-law-school-to-ed-or-not-to-ed

    Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    November 01, 2018 at 6:58pm

    Hi Nick,

    Your chances are slightly better at BU due to their LSAT medians being lower, if I recall correctly.

    Early decision is your call–there has to be a school you love so much you will go there for sure if accepted. That’s not always the case for everyone, so it depends on you 🙂

    Thanks!

  • Nick
    November 06, 2018 at 6:24pm

    Dear Mr. Killoran,

    Thank you so much for your response. Apologies if I’ve been asking too many questions and sincerely appreciate you taking time to answer them.

    1. Just wondering, with a 163, do you think I would stand a good chance if I applied ED to one of the lower ranked T14 schools such as Georgetown or Cornell. The L25 medians of both are 161 and 163 respectively so it seems my 163 is in the ballpark.

    2. Secondly, do you have any page on writing personal statements for law school?

    Once again, thank you so much for your help!

    With Best Regards,
    Aniket

  • Dave Killoran
    November 06, 2018 at 8:52pm

    Hi Nick,

    Thanks, it’s no problem! My vagueness comes from you are asking me questions that are so broad and have so many variables that I can’t give a great answer 🙂 Could you get in ED to one of those schools? Sure! Do I know how likely it is? Not really from just your LSAT score.

    As far as the personal statement, here’s my lengthy seminar I did on it. This contains a lot of my thoughts on how to get to a great result:

    https://vimeo.com/94191768

    Enjoy!

  • Nick
    December 12, 2018 at 6:17pm

    Dear Mr. Killoran,

    Thank you for the lengthy seminar! That 1.5 hours was definitely well-spent.

    As an aside, do you think that it would be a good idea for me to add an addenda explaining my relatively low LSAT score. The reason I wish to give is that I was simultaneously preparing for and appearing for my Bar examinations here in Singapore (which really was the case) and that if I had enough time to prep I would have done better.

    I’m just afraid of the admissions committee looking unfavorably upon it and interpreting it as if I am unable to multi-task. What would your suggestion be?

    With Best Regards,
    Nick

  • Dave Killoran
    December 16, 2018 at 9:27pm

    Hi Nick,

    No, I wouldn’t use that explanation. It is never met favorably because it reflects the fact that you either didn’t properly prioritize the test or you didn’t manage your schedule well enough. And, they’d say, why take it if you weren’t totally ready?

    Better to not draw attention to that point 🙂

  • Alyssa
    January 23, 2019 at 4:36pm

    Hi Dave,

    I’m having a really tough time deciding between two schools and I’m hoping you can help!

    I was offered a full tuition to Penn State Law (ranked #74- I also went there for my undergrad) and was also offered half tuition at UConn (ranked #50). I know UConn has a much better employment outlook, however I feel like it’s tough to tell where PSU will be in the near future since they split from Dickinson so recently. I don’t particularly care where I work per se, but I would like to end up in a coastal town. No dreams of big law here either.

    Do you think UConn’s ranking is worth taking out $60k in loans for tuition? The COL in both areas are pretty similar.

    Thank you so much !!!

  • Melanie
    January 24, 2019 at 8:23pm

    Hi Dave,

    My daughter is trying to decide between sticker price at University of Miami and Loyola (Los Angeles) and a full-tuition scholarship to Capital University, an unranked regional school in Ohio. I don’t believe she has her sights on big law firms but wants to have a stable, well-paying career nonetheless. The free cost of tuition at Capital is nice because it’s close to home and on top of the 50k+ spent at Loyola and Miami, the two cities offer some of the highest living costs. We just need help on deciding if the ranked school is better or the free tuition. Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    January 28, 2019 at 6:57pm

    Hi Alyssa,

    the difference between #50 and #74 is big enough to me to justify paying more, especially when PSU has been investing in the school and should be on the rise. If this was #74 vs #20 then it would be different, but #50 doesn’t do enough in terms of reputation to move the needle for me 🙂

    Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    January 28, 2019 at 7:13pm

    Hi Melanie,

    Your daughter faces one of the true classic decisions here. First, do your research on job outcomes and locations! Start here: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/capital/miami/loyola-la/

    Capital has some very low employment rates, which are a reflection of the ranking (or vice versa, depending on how you view it). But of course it’s free, so that minimizes her risk as a student and then as a practicing attorney. Her career options and likely trajectory do change, however, if she goes here.

    The flip side is a load of debt, and while both Loyola and Miami have better job outcomes, there are no guarantees with degrees from either.

    Your daughter needs to closely consider her interests and pathways as a lawyer, and what she hopes to gain from attending any given school because the choice here is too difficult for an outsider like me to make 🙂

    Good luck!

  • Dave Killoran
    January 30, 2019 at 12:21am

    Correction: “…the difference between #50 and #74 is NOT big enough to me to justify paying more…”

  • Jane
    February 09, 2019 at 10:04pm

    Hi Dave,

    I am trying to decide between a Dillard at UVA and Stanford (with whatever need-based I’ll receive, but I don’t think it will be much).

    I’m interested in PI… not sure if I want to go the government direction or the non-profit direction though. I really do want to do a clerkship and I know that depending on how well I do, I can do this from either school.

    I have family at Stanford and my SO at UVA, so that also complicates the decision for me.

    Do you think there is a significant disadvantage career-wise to attending UVA? Or how big do you think the disadvantage is? I’ve looked at all the employment stats and am still having trouble knowing how significant the difference is.

    Thank you in advance for your thoughts and advice!

  • Dave Killoran
    February 09, 2019 at 11:02pm

    Hi Jane,

    Congrats on the great offer! This one is pretty easy for me: if I was choosing, I’d take the Dillard and never look back. The 8th ranked school in the nation for free vs what sounds like close to a full payment for Stanford? I love Stanford but free at a T8 is just way too good to pass up. The head start in life you get with no debt from a school that good is just unparalleled in my opinion.

    Thanks!

  • Isaac
    February 12, 2019 at 3:04pm

    Hi Dave,

    I’m in the boat of people who don’t know where they would like to practice law after school. For that reason I want to go to a school with a more national reach so I can be flexible. Unfortunately I’m not in a position where I’m deciding between T14 schools. The highest ranked school that I’ve been admitted to is UCLA and I’m doing everything I can to make that option affordable for me. I think it’s a great fit for me because I am interested in immigration/public interest law and they have a great program for that. They are supposed to come out with their scholarship offers at the end of this month, but based upon what I’ve read online my best guess is that if they gave me anything it would be between 40-60K total.

    My options right now are between that and UCI at 67K, GW at 75K, and Minnesota at full ride. While I know Minnesota is ranked rather high and they’ve given me full ride, I’m not so sure I want to be stuck there after graduation. I’m using my full ride offer and an offer of 120K from UC Davis to negotiate for more at UCI and hopefully then using that higher offer from UCI to negotiate with UCLA. GW has stated explicitly that their offer is meant to be final but that there is an application I can fill out for them to reconsider the offer. However, they would only be able to tell me if they are able to increase my scholarship offer after the deadline to reserve my seat. I’m not sure if there is any way of getting around that to negotiate a higher offer, but I’m working with the assumption that that will be my final offer.

    Given that, I was wondering your thoughts on, if it came down to it, ~100K in debt from GW vs. ~100K in debt from UCLA. I would be happy in either a CA or DC market, and from what I understand UCLA has some good connections to the DC market too. I am also wondering if that amount of debt is worth it for those schools or if I should take the money from UCI, Davis or Minnesota and run.

    Thanks.

  • Zach Turim
    February 17, 2019 at 2:27am

    Hi,
    I was recently offered a $150,000 dollars to USC and $105000 to Fordham. I want to work at big law on New York but I would be open to starting in La first as long as there was a clear path to transferring that work to New York. If I were to be accepted to Penn as well paying full tution, which of these options seems like the smartest pick for someone who does like the idea of loans and has started a family but also wants all doors to remain open?
    Thanks in advance,
    Zach

  • Dave Killoran
    February 18, 2019 at 6:37pm

    Hi Zach,

    Thanks for the question! Let’s see, USC with more money vs Fordham with less? Yeah, for me that would tilt strongly towards USC. USC has a similar overall cost, better employment figures, more federal clerkships, and a better large firm employment rate: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/usc/fordham/. To get $45K more there? Not really a tough choice since LA is a huge legal market in this country (not as big as NYC, but still quite reputable and the work experience there is portable to NYC).

    So, what about USC vs Penn? If you were getting money at Penn, this wouldn’t be a tough choice since Penn has much stronger employment and prestige factors: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/usc/penn/

    However, with Penn costing about $160K more (money plus cost of living difference), then it becomes harder. Each school isn’t cheap, but paying off ~$190K is obviously a lot easier than paying off ~$350K. That differential there is what you are paying for to get the opportunity at better job results. Whether that’s worth it to you is a personal choice. I personally don’t love debt, and having a family makes those obligations tougher. Penn opens more doors and better ones at that (usually) but USC opens plenty of doors on its own merit but fewer of the true elite jobs (clerkships being top level, biglaw second). I’m not sure of the best call for you, but I would suggest looking at biglaw hours vs the idea of your family. The two can be tough to blend.

    I hope that helps a bit!

  • Jacque Biggs
    February 28, 2019 at 3:06pm

    Hey, I’m listening to your podcast right now and I’m in this situation too. I live in Louisiana now and would like to practice here. I got accepted to #88 LSU with a small scholarship with my June LSAT score. However, I did a retake in January and #54 Tulane just admitted me with a $37500 a year scholarship. I’m hoping LSU will up my scholarship to full soon. I’m not set on BigLaw, but I’m worried going to LSU will completely shut me out of the New Orleans area and any large firm. The only outcome I’m absolutely hoping to avoid is working at a small rural law firm coming out of law school. What do you think? Thanks!

  • Dave Killoran
    February 28, 2019 at 5:24pm

    Hi Jacque,

    It’s a tough one! LSU is of course far cheaper than Tulane on straight costs, but you are right that biglaw becomes unlikely (4.9% biglaw placement for LSU).

    You’ve probably seen this too: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/lsu/jobs/. It shows that about 29% of LSU grads end up at firms with 10 or fewer attorneys, so chances are significant that you might end up at a small firm (Tulane is 13.7%).

    On straight employment vs cost, LSU is hard to beat, but when you factor in the type of jobs (which you should!), it gets to be very close. If you do reasonably well at LSU, you’ll be fine as far as avoiding that rural job, so I’d probably lean that way if they give you more $$, but you have to look in the mirror here and make an unflinching self-assessment of what you want and what it is worth to you!

    Thanks and please let us know what you do!

  • Dave Killoran
    March 01, 2019 at 5:00pm

    Hi Issac,

    Thanks for the message, and sorry for the delay in replying! I actually wish I’d seen this sooner since we just did a podcast on this very topic (episode 5), and I would have loved to include this scenario.

    For the UCLA vs GW debate, I actually favor UCLA here. GW is a great school and I’m a fan, but the numbers favor UCLA across the board: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/gw/ucla/.

    So, if UCLA emerges the victor there, how does it stack up against the other 3? First, let’s separate those three, starting by comparing UCI and Davis, where Davis comes up a bit short (biglaw placement and clerkships are sharply lower than UCI, reflecting less of a broad pull). For UCI vs Minnesota, the comparison is closer but with around 70% of the class staying in Minnesota/Wisconsin, you are right to be concerned about MN. However, the full ride is hard to ignore and given how close these schools are, would likely tilt me towards Minnesota. It’s close though, and I can see either outcome being completely reasonable.

    So, it’s UCLA vs Minnesota (or Irvine, depending): https://www.lstreports.com/compare/irvine/ucla/minnesota/. Given your goals I’d lean towards UCLA, but you are paying $100K for a numerical advantage that is not overwhelming and is at times even inferior (clerkships, for example).

    That isn’t a clear cut answer, but this mostly comes down to job outcomes and locations, which can be very hard to determine beforehand. Minnesota is the best “deal” financially, but you may well end up in that area; UCLA has more pull in bigger markets including LA/SF, NYC, and DC but it will cost you. Is it worth the extra debt to have the better option of getting out of the midwest? Only you can tell 🙂

    Thanks!

  • Brian L
    March 03, 2019 at 8:53pm

    Hi Dave,

    As you stated above I need to first thank the PS Bibles for putting me in this great position to begin with! Pending waitlist movement (4 t14 waitlists, and still pending at NYU) I have narrowed my choices down to 3 schools and calculated the debt I would leave each school with:

    Virginia (250k), WashU (90k), Wisconsin (30k, in-state & alma mater)

    I am not interested in big law, but I am interested in clerking (preferably federal to help with future academia dreams), working for the government (potentially federal, though I could be happy with state probably as quality of life and a reasonable work week is important to me), or in another public service role. If my grades turn out right I would eventually like to make my way into academia/teaching perhaps. Landing a full professorship would be my most highly desired mid-career outcome I think after getting some government work experience under my belt, though I know that is a fairly remote possibility and I need to not necessarily make plans with that goal in mind.

    I do not want to be stuck in one employment market for the next 3-4 decades but am otherwise pretty flexible on that end besides generally not wanting to live in huge cities due to high COL. Since I am not planning on big law, a strong LRAP program is of course very enticing/important for my post-law school financial situation. If I know I am committed to public service work, does that make an astronomical debt burden more theoretical since I would be on a school or government forgiveness route? What other factors should I be thinking about here? I will be attending all 3 school’s ASWs this spring.

    The estimated debt burdens at graduation again are Virginia – 250k, WashU 90k, Wisconsin 30k. My WashU scholarship is 130k total – would I be able to get UVA to budge at all on their current $0 offer in comparison with that?

    Thank you in advance if you have any thoughts! (Love the new pod as well!)

    Brian

  • Dave Killoran
    March 04, 2019 at 2:08am

    Hi Brian,

    Thanks for the questions! There is a ton to unpack in your post, but let’s start at the end: UVA will likely not respond to the WashU offer. Their rankings aren’t close enough, and this goes to the point we made at the end of episode 5 about negotiations–the schools need to consider themselves comparable.

    Next, it’s beneficial that you have your career paths strongly in mind here. From a clerkship standpoint, UVA is obviously the strongest, with placement rates about double that of the other two schools. And I know you aren’t interested in biglaw, but keep in mind that those numbers reflect the esteem a school is held in within the legal profession, which extends to academia. UVA at 69.3% biglaw dwarfs WashU at 44.9%, which dwarfs Wisconsin at 11.3%. On a purely academic track, UVA is clearly the best choice here. But is it worth 250K? If you went public service and used UVA’s VLFP II program(https://www.law.virginia.edu/public-service/loan-forgiveness), then you could severaly discount costs but of course you have to meet the program requirements. I haven’t done an LRAP analysis of UVA any time recently, so I don’t feel comfortable making anything other than general comments here at the moment.

    As far as WashU vs Wisconsin, these are schools that give you different outcomes as well. Wisconsin is basically a lot of public service and small firm work, WashU is trying very hard to climb the ranks into the real major leagues and places like a climbing school. while you can go to Wisconsin and end up a professor, it’s not easy at all, and you are more likely to end up in public service. WashU gives you more options, and may well be worth the extra $60K given your stated preferences.

    In which case, how much do you desire the opportunity to get that professorship? UVA makes you pay for it, but the chances are far better coming from there than the other two, although WashU gives you a shot. Wisconsin put you in public service almost certainly. So, the question is are you willing to take on the debt for the shot at academia?

    I hope that helps, but you have a tough decision here!

  • Brian L
    March 04, 2019 at 2:56am

    Apologies Dave,

    I neglected to include relevant info in my above post:

    Virginia
    USN – 9
    ATL – 2
    Debt at graduation – 250k
    Scholarship – $0
    Employment – 92%
    Underemployment – 2%
    Bar Passage – 96%
    Federal Clerkships – 10%
    Public Service – 10%
    Placement – NY 28%, DC 23%
    Monthly Loan Payments on 10 yr. plan – $2,819 (LRAP?)

    WashU
    USN – 18
    ATL – 17
    Debt at graduation – 90k
    Scholarship – 130k
    Employment – 86%
    Underemployment – 5%
    Bar Passage – 87%
    Federal Clerkships – 4%
    Public Service – 13%
    Placement – MO 25%, NY 15%
    Monthly Loan Payments on 10 yr. plan – $1,011 (assuming LRAP here isn’t as good as UVA’s..?)

    Wisconsin
    USN – 27
    ATL – 42
    Debt at graduation – 30k
    Scholarship – 70k
    Employment – 74%
    Underemployment – 5%
    Bar Passage – 100% (diploma privilege)
    Federal Clerkships – 4%
    Public Service – 32%
    Placement – WI 67%
    Monthly Loan Payments on 10 yr. plan – $311

    Obviously at UVA and WashU I would never be able to afford the 10 yr. standard repayment plan so would need to be financing through some combination of school LRAP, government PSLF, IBR, RePAYE, or something like that (if that’s even a prudent idea).

    I also wanted to quickly add that I feel supremely comfortable and at home in a college town environment such as UW & UVA (unsure what WashU’s campus and the Clayton, MO area is like but am visiting), for law school and also for after potentially..

    Thank you so much again in advance if you are able to take a look at my analysis so far! (And for the bibles!!)

    Brian

  • Brian L
    March 04, 2019 at 3:01am

    Further apologies – I did not see that you had responded before I sent my addendum post, sorry! Thank you for looking it over, I truly do appreciate it!

    Brian

  • Ella J
    March 10, 2019 at 8:45pm

    Hi Brian/Dave/everyone,

    I’m in the luckiest position I can imagine and have gotten in to a lot of great schools. I have it (roughly) narrowed down to Harvard, Yale, Columbia, and NYU, with the possibility of full-tuition public interest scholarships at both Columbia and NYU, and I am expecting zero need-based aid from Harvard and Yale. I am fully 100% committed to public interest, but I’m not sure exactly what I want that to look like — I could easily see myself in a legal services/public defender career, or something more policy-oriented eventually, and I don’t know enough about clerking to know if I want to clerk. There’s also a chance I might want to move abroad at some point. I don’t think I want to do academia (unless we’re talking about clinical professorships, which seem to be a different beast) but again, don’t really know. So…basically I want to keep my options open, with the knowledge that I definitely want to do public interest and would be fully relying on the LRAP programs at Harvard and Yale (and ostensibly at NYU/Columbia for cost of living loans).

    My instinct is that Yale > Harvard if I’m paying sticker. The only doubt I have about that is around Harvard’s larger network/greater name recognition if I’m living overseas and need connections. Do you think this is a legitimate doubt? That aside, would you agree that Yale > Harvard in terms of creating opportunities for most public interest-oriented people? Any other comments on that?

    That aside, paying sticker to Yale might be stupid if I get a public interest scholarship at NYU or Columbia. The NYU scholarship is named (it’s the RTK) while the Columbia one isn’t. I don’t really have a sense of how much better these opportunities would be compared to Yale at sticker with my goals. I have a feeling that Columbia has better overseas recognition than NYU, but the Root program has additional benefits that can’t really be measured because of the level of support and the network it provides.

    But I’m conflicted, because I also am really drawn to Yale’s lack of grades and general chiller/theoretical atmosphere! Also it’s Yale (who turns down Yale?)! I guess I’m asking how stupid it would be to choose Yale over the Root, since my goals are not super specific at the moment and I don’t really have a reason that Yale would uniquely help me get to wherever I’m going (except maybe int’l prestige). Their LRAP is obviously great but it’s also a LOT of debt, and who knows what life could throw at me.

    Any commentary you might have on any element of this situation/general panic would be amazing. The people I love are great, but they don’t really get law school stuff, and I don’t have too many people to talk to about this decision.

    Thank you so much.

    -Ella

  • Dave Killoran
    March 11, 2019 at 5:02pm

    Hi Ella,

    Thanks for the questions. The biggest concern I have in answering you here is that you have put so many options on the table, and in many instances said you don’t know if you might want to do them. That makes it very difficult for an outsider to provide advice 🙂 So, the first thing I would advise is for you to sit down and research through these various career options–you need to know more about things like clerking in order to understand if it’s something you want to pursue.

    Second, go look carefully at the job outcomes for each school (listen to our podcast if you don’t know where to get this info). There’s a reason here that Yale is on top of the rankings, and ultimately it translates into the fact that Yale gets you jobs everywhere (although slightly less so abroad compared to Harvard as you note, but again that’s a great example of why it’s so hard to provide advice here–are we looking at domestic or international markets for your future? That needs to be answered first). In general, in the Yale vs Harvard battle, take a look at matriculation numbers–it will be clear immediately which school your fellow students deem superior.

    Last, even if Yale is the kingpin of placement, a free ride at Columbia is a better deal almost every time. It’s just too big of a financial advantage from too good a school to pass up.

    So, the bottom line here is that I’m happy to help, but to do so I need to have narrower, more defined parameters for the decision. That allows us to compare apples to apples. Thanks!

  • Grace
    March 11, 2019 at 10:15pm

    Hi Dave,

    Thank you for giving your sage advice to all of the people on this blog looking to make a major decision about their future.

    Here’s my situation. I’ve gotten accepted to CLS without scholarship, NYU with a 26k scholarship, and Berkeley Law with 60,000. I’m currently negotiating with Berkeley to give me more money because USC offered me $120k. After Berkeley answers my reconsideration request, I’ll go to NYU to ask for more money as well.

    I have a large community in both the East Bay and NYC, but would ultimately like to settle down in California (most likely Oakland). I love it here. That said my best friend lives in NYC so a 3 fun years in the city before returning to CA is certainly possible.

    I will not have to pay room & board (my partner is covering those costs during school — and he’s willing to relocate to either city). So my COA is as follows:
    COA Berkeley = 96
    COA NYU = 166
    COA CLS = 210
    https://www.lstreports.com/compare/nyu/columbia/berkeley/

    Ideally, I’d clerk in the Bay Area after graduation then work for a boutique firm. I have no interest signing my life away in BigLaw for 200k, but no balance. Ideally, I could find a firm with a 40-50 work week and a ~150k salary. I just visited NYU and loved it, but I’m afraid NYC will be too big of a distraction. Berkeley is in the place I’d like to settle down, but has less prestige. What are your thoughts?

Comments

  1. Anonymous says

    June 23, 2020 at 12:22 am

    Hi Dave,

    Thank you very much for your quick response. This was extremely helpful and framed the discussion about career opportunities/ benefits in a way I had not previously considered and has definitely led me to look into some other things!

    As a quick follow up, my biggest concern with Nova is limiting myself to the Philadelphia market. I noticed in one of your previous replies you noted that a student should feel comfortable settling in the Philadelphia area if they attend Nova and that is something I am worried about.

    When I mentioned earlier that GW is the school “I will do better at” I was more thinking in terms of getting exposure to employers in that market. So with that in mind and my long term goal being to wind up in D.C., would your analysis change at all or stay the same?

    Thank you!

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      June 23, 2020 at 2:14 pm

      Hi Anon,

      Glad I could help! Villanova doesn’t have much placement in DC from the available numbers, but that data is also limited. I’d contact their career services office and talk to them about DC placements. It’s clearly not huge, but it might be more than the the 0% the data currently hows.

      If it does turn out to be 0% (and I don’t expect that), then you have a bit of an issue. It would likely mean that your first job would have to be in Pennsylvania, and then after that you could look for DC-area employment. If that’s not tenable for you, then in a sense you’ve made the decision–if you really want DC out of the gate and Nova has little to no pull there, then what other choice do you have but to transfer to GW?

      I’d start with the career services office as that will help make the data clearer! Good luck and please keep me posted!

      Reply
  2. Anonymous says

    June 21, 2020 at 5:09 pm

    Hi Dave,

    Thank you for your helpful article. I wanted to post this anonymously as I am a potential transfer student. I just completed my first year at Villanova where I have a scholarship worth 40k/ a year. I applied to transfer to a few schools in the D.C./ Virginia area since that is eventually the area I want to practice. I was admitted to GW, my original first choice, with no financial aid.

    While I think GW is the school I will do better at, the financial impact is scary, 93k cost of attendance x 2 years= 186k. I am scared that while I think GW is the better option, it may not be worth the financial burden compared to Villanova.

    Any thoughts? It would also only be for two years which makes it a little easier to stomach.

    Thank you,

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      June 21, 2020 at 7:12 pm

      Hi Anon,

      I guess it depends on what “I think GW is the school I will do better at” is referring to. As in, you’ll perform better there and like it more? Or that your job outcomes will be better? Or, perhaps, both?

      If it’s about performance and enjoyment, then it could easily be worth it as a higher class rank will typically translate into better results. If it’s about job outcomes, I’m less certain that’s a good trade. GW is a huge school (esp compared to Nova), and pushing that many grads into a DC market that is covered by other good schools (Gtown) and in a generally coveted location (politics) doesn’t make their employment numbers all that amazing (a comparison: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/gw/villanova/). That’s a big price tag to pay for what’s not a major step up in employment outcomes. There are times when you compare two school, and you can see the power differential so clearly–you see it elsewhere in some of my replies to students in this thread. Using a simple power ranking metric (fed clerkships + large firm jobs (250 or more)), you get the following comparison:

      GW: 2.2% + 27.7% = 29.9%
      Villanova: 1.4% + 15.2% = 16.6%

      That’s a lot of debt for a 13.3% improvement over where you are. I’d rather see a 40% difference for that kind of expense. Compare, for example, Northwestern:

      Northwestern: 9.1% + 65.9% = 75%

      I add them in randomly because that’s what top school numbers look like. You’re paying for a 75% chance at a top-level job, which is pretty good bet for most people. GW comes in under 30%, and that’s just not impressive enough to me to throw all that money at it. But wait, there’s more 🙂

      Note though, that where you draw the line makes a difference. Let’s say I added state/local clerkships and expanded the firms to 100+ attorneys. Note the change:

      GW: 9.2% + 31.1% = 40.3%
      Villanova: 23.2% + 22.3% = 45.5%

      In other words, as far as top-tier jobs, GW has a biglaw edge, but as far as what happens to those outside of the top echelon, Villanova is equal if not better (there’s a clear strategy at Villanova, if those clerkship numbers are right, to place students with state/local judges).

      So, I would take a long hard look at what you are paying for and your career goals. From a debt standpoint, this is a lot to pay for what I perceive as a not-overwhelming improvement in outcomes.

      Please let me know what you think. Thanks!

      Reply
  3. Jerry says

    May 13, 2020 at 4:17 am

    Hi Dave,

    I apologize in advance for the length of this post and thank you for taking the time to respond. I am caught in the middle of a rather complex decision.

    I have had a very interesting application cycle to say the least. To preface this comment I have done a significant amount of research and self reflection and I am still coming up short on what exactly I should do. I have reached out to lawyers, law students, scoured the web, reached out to career counselors, spoken with family/friends, etc., and I am still having such a hard time making a final decision. I have read through all of your previous comments to people to try to glean any similarities with my situation and you will likely be just as unsure what to do as I am.

    A bit of background. I am an untraditional student in the sense that I come from a performing arts/liberal arts background. I am originally from Texas. UT Austin undergrad. Moved out to LA to pursue acting/try something new. Started a career in entertainment management, not fulfilling enough. Still in LA and been here for 3 years. I am now returning back to my desire to go to law school (met with pre-law advising at least a dozen times in undergrad but was never ready to make the commitment, now I am.)

    As for career goals, I am not set on any particular area of law. I am not “BigLaw or Bust”, however, having that as a potential option would be better than not having it as an option at all. My heart is in public interest (strong focus on LGBTQ+ advocacy), but I ultimately just want a sustaining, challenging and fulfilling career. I don’t need to make top dollar, but being financially comfortable is always the goal. Given my fluidity/openness in career goals, I want to have the most options/opportunities I can get out the law school I choose.

    Geographically speaking, I have loved living in LA these last 3 years. I would not mind spending another 3 years here for law school. However, my family is back in Texas. My goal is to eventually return to Texas, more specifically Austin, Texas. Lower cost of living + no state income taxes + large legal market + family/friends = returning to Texas is inevitable for me.

    Now for the options:
    – The University of Houston Law Center: completely debt free (including tuition, fees, books, COL)

    PROS: a free J.D. means my earnings are my own from the moment I start working, strong support system in Houston (best friend lives there) and a quick 4 hour road trip to my family in DFW, low COL means my money goes further, huge city = huge legal market

    CONS: currently ranked #56, about 22% in total BigLaw/Fed Clerkship placement, would need to maintain top 20% status to secure a wider range of opportunities (more pressure to not be a median student), have heard “at graduation” employment is tough if you aren’t in the top half of the class, would need to be comfortable starting career in Houston and remaining until a lateral jump to Austin could be made

    – UCLA School of Law: could pull it off in roughly $80-$85K in principal loan debt

    PROS: would not have to immediately relocate in the short term, amazing LRAP program, guaranteed summer stipends for public interest work, over 50% in total BigLaw/Fed Clerkship placement, stellar employment record, access to the 2nd largest legal market in the country, most prestigious law school I got into

    CONS: taking on debt, prolonging the move to Texas and worried about UCLA’s placement there, larger class sizes and steeper competition

    I am unfortunately waitlisted to Texas Law or else that would have been the perfect combination of all of my desires. I have sent in several heartfelt and convincing LOCIs to no avail as of yet.

    If you’ve made it this far, you’re a hero. Again, I appreciate any guidance/insight as to what I should do in this situation or if there may be things I am not considering in my above thought process. I recognize that I am thankful to have any choices at all, but I’m sure you can appreciate how extremely stressful it is to have to make a decision that will more or less chart the course for the rest of my career.

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      May 13, 2020 at 9:04 pm

      Hi Jerry,

      Thanks for the message! I did indeed get through all of it 🙂

      First, thanks very much for the complete layout of information–that is quite helpful.

      Second, I don’t think there is a “bad” choice here, which is good news. Either route can easily work for your purposes, and if you went the UCLA path the debt isn’t so onerous as to cripple your options.

      Next, as you noted, UCLA has about a double placement rate compared to Houston for the top jobs. The reason we track that is that there is a trickle down effect, so that extra 25% or so is what you’d be paying for, and then presumably the second -tier jobs are improved, etc. Is that worth it, and would it play in Texas? It’s certainly an attractive bargain, and the nice thing about UCLA is that everyone in the country has heard of it and knows it to be a good school (it’s similar to how UT play reasonably well in other markets–everyone has heard of it). Texas firms won’t know UCLA grads as well as they do UH grads, but that can actually be a benefit when you come in from a higher-ranked school–uniqueness is desirable.

      So yeah, I feel the difficulty of this choice, and there’s no real way for me to say go for the bigger name vs the zero debt. You seem to like both locations, and so I’d likely focus your decision on which school you think you can do best at over the next three years (and, don’t worry about size/competition at UCLA; no one walks into law school suddenly great at it. That’s almost a crapshoot in some respect).

      Last, don’t over stress here. These are both excellent options, and you are looking at which one is better than the other, not which one is worse. Debt free is fabulous, but the debt at UCLA is also not that big and the jobs outcomes are generally better. Those are both winning options to me 🙂

      I hope that helps somewhat! And please let me know what you decide 🙂

      Reply
      • Jerry says

        May 14, 2020 at 1:53 am

        Hi Dave,

        I very much appreciate your thoughtful response!

        It’s an interesting point you bring up about which program I might succeed more in over the next 3 years. I’ve given this some thought too and I’ve considered what “stressors” I can avoid in either situation.

        I moved to LA in my young 20s. The community I have built here is largely built around social activities (i.e. going out, going on trips to Palm Springs/Vegas, etc.) While I know I am an amazing student and can easily say “no” to things, I feel the temptation and room for distraction is greater in LA given what I have grown accustomed to during my time living here. Another point I consider is the fact that I live with roommates in LA (3 to be exact). For what I spend to live here, I could easily live by myself in a very nice 1 bedroom or studio in Houston, TX (it may even be cheaper). If my fall semester, due to COVID19, is largely going to be virtual, I think about the huge benefit of having my own living and work space will be, not to mention the myriad of benefits of just living alone during law school. In addition, I think about how physically and mentally taxing law school is. Some days it may make all the difference to be able to just drive home for a nice home cooked meal to escape the stresses of 1L. In fact, UHLC does not have Friday classes during your 1L from what I understand and could easily leave for DFW after a busy week. Not to mention the added benefit of literally having my best friend since middle school down the road in Houston.

        However, on the flip side, UCLA has a unique one and half week long orientation and 1L “bootcamp” to prepare students with the necessary 1L tips, tricks and strategies to perform well in class and on exams before classes even begin. I absolutely love that. I think about being able to escape to the beach to clear my head or take a hike to release stress. What is unfortunate is that one of the appeals of UCLA is the gorgeous campus. With most classes likely being virtual, I may not even get to enjoy that beauty of the UCLA campus my first semester.

        This is all probably way more info than you asked for but it almost feels cathartic to type this out and think through it with you. 🙂

        I will surely report back what I ultimately decide.

        Thanks again!

        Reply
        • Dave Killoran says

          May 14, 2020 at 12:15 pm

          Hi Jerry,

          That’s a good way to think of it. I lived in LA for years, not too far from UCLA at times, so I know exactly the type of environment and distractions that exist there. Then again, sometimes it can keep you sane to have other people around as distractions on occasion 🙂

          One point I will make: that 1L bootcamp at UCLA shouldn’t be a decider. Similar programs exist in the “wild” and replicate that type of experience. For example, I’m good friends with the folks at LawPreview, and I know their program is high-quality and run by people who care.

          Another aside: this has been a very slow cycle for waitlists at the T14, but we may see some heavy movement this summer. I wonder what happens if UT comes calling for you 🙂

          Keep talking this through and I suspect one of the options will begin appear a nose ahead of the other.

          Thanks!

          Reply
          • Jerry says

            May 14, 2020 at 4:40 pm

            Hi Dave,

            You’re absolutely right and if UT came to me tomorrow and offered me a spot, I wouldn’t hesitate to accept, which has very transparently been expressed to them.

            I guess I would have to figure out at what point does it become to late for them to offer me acceptance and me reasonably make the switch. For instance, if UHLC is the way I go, I have to start making preparations to move and secure an apartment lease here in the not too distant future. If UCLA is the way I go, at what point is it too late to adequately and responsibly move back to Austin.

            I have a call set today with a UCLA career counselor to pick her brain about the program and get her insight into some of my fears. Hoping that goes well!

            Thank you for your guidance!

  4. Dave says

    May 9, 2020 at 5:44 pm

    Hi, Dave (?),

    Wow! Thank you for such a good and insightful answer…that helps me out a great deal. I also greatly appreciate the timeliness and kindness of your reply. When I posted a similar question on”Top Law Schools” I got a rude response that said neither school would get me what I wanted.

    I feel that the one factor that has held me back from W&M is distance, even more than money. However, your clear-minded analysis really focused me on why I wanted to go to law school in the first place, and W&M offers those things. Also, my wife and I really like Williamsburg and went there as our pre-wedding trip (and then had a colonial-themed wedding). I was afraid I might be just indulging myself by going there, but your numbers showed me that there is real value for my future in that decision.

    Finally, thank you for all you do…you obviously care about the welfare of students!

    Take care,
    Dave

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      May 10, 2020 at 2:10 pm

      Hi Dave,

      Yeah, I’m a Dave too, lol! Thanks so much for the kind reply–I cannot tell you how much I appreciate it! I can completely understand your concerns over the distance but it does sound like it’s a place where you can do well and that can help you in the future. And it sounds like both you and your wife will enjoy living there in your 2L and 3L years, which is cool since you both know a bit about the area already.

      I wish you the best of success!

      Reply
  5. Dave says

    May 9, 2020 at 4:32 am

    Hi,

    I have a choice between PSU/Dickinson and William and Mary. I’ll give details below, but my estimated annual cost of attendance will vary based on the fact that I am married and living arrangements will differ for each school. In each case, my wife and I will live separately (visiting on weekends) in my 1L year and we will be living together for the second and third years, when she would take on most of the non-tuition and fees COA.

    PSU/Dickinson (ranked 62):

    Full ride plus $5K 1L Dean’s Fellowship
    Annual Cost of Attendance: $9,000 to $10,000 (1L), $5,000 (2L and 3L)
    TOTAL cost of attendance = $20,000
    Pros:
    Largest scholarship, close to home (2 hours), provides advantage in PA, very friendly people, externships in state government, strong in state clerkships, chance to study in Philly and DC.
    Cons:
    Lower ranking than W&M, academic program less interesting, less interesting town and surrounding area, GPA curve 3.0 , no Order of the Coif to which to aspire

    William and Mary (ranked 31)

    About 50% tuition scholarship
    Annual Cost of attendance: $30,000 to $36,000 (1L), $19,000 (2L and 3L) with in-state residency
    TOTAL cost of attendance = $74,000

    Pros:
    Higher rank, focus on constitutional law, interesting academic program, nationally known, ranks in top 50 in any area of law that interests me, the historical interest and beauty of campus and Williamsburg, better law library, GPA curve 3.30, stronger in DC, higher rate of federal clerkships, Order of the Coif , train station close
    Cons:
    Higher cost, farther from home (about 5-6 hours), not as strong in PA

    Career Goals:
    I can see myself in a variety of positions, from working in a firm or government to becoming a judge, Congressional staffer, legislator, or even law prof (though I have been told I have no shot at the latter outside the T14). Right out of law school, the job that appeals most top me is a federal clerkship. My geographic preference is either Philly or DC, though I could imagine working in NJ, the NYC area, or possibly the Boston area, as well. My favorite areas of law (at least at this point) are constitutional law, healthcare law, IP law (including patent), elder law, animal law, national security law, space law, family law, trusts and estates. I am sure I will narrow this down in law school.

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      May 9, 2020 at 4:59 pm

      Hi Dave,

      Thanks for the message! You have the classic choice here, but the big bonus is that your costs are under $75K, which makes the final decisions easier no matter which way you decide 🙂

      Let’s first start with a comment you made at the end: “law prof (though I have been told I have no shot at the latter outside the T14).” This is a common misconception, as a glance at the faculty of almost any law school will tell you. Yes, if you want to be a prof at HYS, then being outside the T14 makes it harder, and in general T14 status is a big help. But take a look at William & Mary, for example. I pulled up their faculty roster and clicked on the first eight professors, alphabetically. Here are their JD schools:

      Illinois
      American U
      Stanford
      Yale
      Yale
      Virginia
      UNC
      Virginia

      So, 5/8 are T14, 3/8 aren’t. A limited sample to be sure, but surely it counters the “no chance” myth that has been perpetuated throughout the years 🙂 That said, prestige and rankings do matter in the law field, and generally the higher-ranked school you attend, the better your chances of landing a job like that.

      Next, you said that, “the job that appeals most top me is a federal clerkship.” As I’m sure you noticed, W&M in 2018 placed 9.1% of grads into a fed clerking job whereas Penn State placed 4.8%. Since W&M is about three times larger than PSU-D, that means the actual numbers were about 17 vs 3, but notice that means that W&M grads aren’t a rarity in federal clerkships whereas PSU grads somewhat are–they don’t have the same track record because the school is relatively new. That isn’t the end of the world (witness UC Irvine’s rise) but it means that PSU simply doesn’t have the same name brand recognition yet (in the future I believe they will–PSU admin seems quite focused and intent on raising their profile). But, as you note, Dickinson places a lot of grads into state clerkships.

      Moving on, given the variety of interests you have both academically and career-wise, there’s some value in looking at the bigger name school, and the LST numbers bear that out. Using a simple power ranking metric (fed clerkships + large firm jobs (250 or more)), you get the following comparison:

      Dickinson: 4.8% + 3.2% = 8.0%
      William & Mary: 9.1% + 19.7% = 28.8%

      That shows that W&M places into true power positions at a rate about 3.5 times greater than Dickinson.

      So, the question is whether the increased chances at a clerkship, greater job options, and eventual professorship are worth the extra money and distance. I’d say they probably are, BUT, I can’t see into how thing play out on the family side. Maybe staying closer to home works out much more easily for you on the home front and that helps you perform better. Or perhaps being in new surroundings in a place you like is the key to an improved performance. This is the real question: which school makes you feel more at home and comfortable? Because there’s no bad choice here and either school could see you off to a successful career. If it’s equal in your opinion, go with the lower debt every time.

      So, not a definitive answer but I hope it helped a bit. Please let me know.

      Thanks!

      Reply
  6. Neda Mazdisnian says

    April 29, 2020 at 12:10 am

    Hi Dave,

    I’m debating between NYU Law at sticker and Georgetown with 30k per year. I have an interest in big law, but I’m having trouble justifying paying full price at NYU. I also went to Georgetown r so I’m pretty familiar with the area, but I’ve always wanted to live in New York. I would love your advice on this!
    Best,
    Neda

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      April 30, 2020 at 6:19 pm

      Hi Neda,

      Thanks for the message! Any chance you could run down the final COA (cost of attendance) for each school for me? It’s basically impossible to make an informed call without knowing your exact debt outcomes here and whether you have any living arrangements that make one school cheaper than another!

      Thanks!

      Thanks!

      Reply
  7. Neda Mazdisnian says

    April 29, 2020 at 12:10 am

    Hi Dave,

    I’m debating between NYU Law at sticker and Georgetown with 30k per year. I have an interest in big law, but I’m having trouble justifying paying full price at NYU. I also went to Georgetown undegrad so I’m pretty familiar with the area, but I’ve always wanted to live in New York. I would love you advice on this!
    Best,
    Neda

    Reply
  8. Nn says

    April 27, 2020 at 5:08 am

    Reading through all of these responses has been very helpful! I’m in a similar boat to many, but unfortunately due to Covid (and being out of the country for the months before), I was unable to do any visits. I had planned on a gap year teaching abroad but the program was cancelled so I am now
    planning to attend school. I had applied just in case, all over the board. I got into GW, Vanderbilt and Boston with less than a 1/3. I got full tuition at Iowa, Temple, Maryland, GMU and Denver. I’m considering the full tuition offers more heavily, as I’m very hesitant about everything right now and am not sure what area I want to practice in. I’ve always wanted to be on the east coast, any thoughts?

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      April 27, 2020 at 4:55 pm

      Hi Nn,

      Thanks for the message! Any chance you could run down the COA (cost of attendance) for me? It’s basically impossible to make an informed call without knowing your exact debt outcomes here and whether you have any living arrangements that make one school cheaper than another (even with full rides)!

      Thanks!

      Reply
      • Nn says

        April 28, 2020 at 12:51 am

        Sure. Thanks for the reply. I just used the schools housing/cost estimates. GW COA after scholarship is $210,000. Vanderbilt and BU COA is about $214,000. Based on schools estimates my COA at Temple would be $60,000 (high estimate accounting for 20k per year for housing/books/travel /misc). Maryland COA would be $80,000. Denver COA is $60,000. I think I’ve ruled out Iowa for location (want to work in a major city) and GMU based on feel. I’m not tied to any specific field yet but have an interest in international law and hopes to work in a large city (Philadelphia, DC, Chicago…)

        Reply
        • Dave Killoran says

          April 28, 2020 at 7:21 pm

          Hi Nn,

          So with that info, let’s group those choices again and see how they compete internally:

          First group: T25 (comparison: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/vanderbilt/bu/gw/)

          #18 Vanderbilt COA is $214,000.
          #20 BU COA is $214,000.
          #23 GW COA is $210,000.

          These schools are all the same price, and of the three the hiring numbers at Vandy–as well as the national recognition–are highest. Vandy has the best biglaw placement and a much higher federal clerkship placement rate (and both are a reflection of name brand power). Other than geographical/city preferences (and Nashville is awesome), Vandy would be the clear choice of these three given costs are identical.

          Second group: T75 (comparison: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/maryland/temple/denver/)

          #47 Maryland COA is $80,000.
          #56 Temple COA is $60,000.
          #74 Denver COA is $60,000.

          Of those three, Temple has slightly better numbers than Maryland (likely due to Temple’s location in Philly), and both have better placement than Denver. I’d likely lean toward Temple since it’s $20K cheaper, but an argument can be made for Maryland too. I don’t see how Denver competes with Temple as far as employment.

          So, if it were me, it’s Temple vs Vandy (https://www.lstreports.com/compare/vanderbilt/temple/), and what happens next depends entirely on your career aspirations. If it’s a biglaw career then Vandy is clearly superior and may well be worth the extra $150K. But if you prefer maximum lifetime flexibility–but without nearly the access to high-profile/high-paying jobs–then Temple could easily be safer for you. And it’s on the East Coast 🙂 However, right now you don’t seem too sure about what you want to do so you should really think on this since it’s a huge financial decision either way you go!

          I hope that helps, thanks!

          Reply
  9. Tom says

    April 27, 2020 at 1:16 am

    Hi Dave, love all the great info!

    Between HLS and Columbia – both at sticker. Pretty strong preference to live in NYC.

    Hope to do BL for a couple of years in NYC and then go in-house.

    How much better, if at all, is the HLS outcome vs. Columbia?

    Thank you!

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      April 27, 2020 at 2:20 pm

      Hi Tom,

      Thanks for the message! Good news for you here: the HLS outcomes aren’t better than Columbia. If you want biglaw, Columbia is better than Harvard, although that occurs in part because Harvard sends more grads into coveted federal clerkships. The rest of the difference is likely the advantage of being in NYC as well as Columbia being a smaller school overall.

      You can see more details here: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/columbia/harvard/

      So, if biglaw is on your radar and you strongly prefer to live in NYC, I’d say you would be great with Columbia.

      Thanks!

      Reply
  10. BJ says

    April 19, 2020 at 7:32 pm

    Unsure if you’re replying to this post anymore but – if so – I’m a later in life student, going in at 34 and have two true options I’m considering. $10k per year at Fordham or full-ride at NYLS. The debt is the only thing I fear since it is literally $200k vs $0k but unsure if rankings will kill me in job prospects. I’ve gotten both answers from my network (have lived and worked in NYC for a decade now). My heart says Fordham. My brain says NYLS. Do you have any advice?

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      April 20, 2020 at 2:06 pm

      Hi BJ,

      Thanks for the message. Yes, we still reply to questions posted here 🙂

      First, for anyone interested, here’s the LST comparison of the two schools: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/newyork/fordham/

      Your sense of this is correct: Fordham has job outcomes that are demonstrably superior to those of NYLS, but you have to pay for the chance at those outcomes. So the real question here is: what kind of job are you seeking? If it’s biglaw, your chances at NYLS are basically about 1 in 10 of securing a biglaw job whereas at Fordham it is 1 in 2. On the other hand, if it’s public interest, there’s no reason to have debt for that and NYLS would be the clearly superior choice. So, is comes down to the options you want available and whether the preferred outcome is worth the $200K buy-in fee.

      Fordham has always been solid in NYC placement among larger firms and NYLS struggles there, and in the better paying job range you’d need to come out of NYLS near the top of your class (which is difficult to predict ahead of time due to the unusual nature of law school grading). So, I’d use your job preferences as the guide here since the difference is big here.

      Thanks and please let me know what you decide!

      Reply
  11. Anonymous says

    April 8, 2020 at 1:42 am

    Hi there,

    I would appreciate any advice you have on my situation. Money is my main concern and biggest factor.

    I was offered a full-ride at the University of Washington school of law (#44) as long as I work in public interest for 5 years my debt will be forgiven.

    My other option is Berkeley Law (#10) and I will probably pursue public interest and they have a generous LRAP program, but I would be coming out with ~$250,000 in debt.

    I do not plan to stay in Washington nor California, but practice in Colorado.

    Is the debt at Berkeley worth it for me?

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      April 13, 2020 at 12:44 pm

      Hi Anonymous,

      Thanks for the message! It probably isn’t, in part because your opening line is that “Money is my main concern and biggest factor.” If you chose Berkeley, you’re then on the hook for a substantial six figures of debt vs being debt free with a degree from a solid law school. If you were committed to biglaw or a clerkship, then Berkeley would get a lot more attractive, but looking at your career path and stated interest in PI then Washington appears to be the better deal. An alternative perspective here would be: is the $250K price tag worth the better job outcomes you’d get at Berkeley? For your area of interest, that’s a stretch to see as being the case.

      Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

      Reply
  12. Taylor says

    April 7, 2020 at 11:45 am

    Hello Dave!

    Amazing article! I’ll cut to the chase: I’m deciding between going to a top ranked school versus a school that is giving me a full scholarship. I got a full ride plus some (roughly $200k) at Chapman in California, but also got accepted to UCLA with $50k, Cornell with $60k, and BU with full tuition. I got accepted to other California schools with some aid (Davis, Loyola, Pepperdine, San Diego) which aren’t fully out of question, but i’m debating on taking up no debt at chapman or going to one of the better ranked schools I got into.

    I have no clue what I want to do, other than I want to work in a city (LA, DC, etc.) With Chapman at #111 and Cornell at #13 and UCLA at #15, I have no clue if its worth taking on the debt to get those opportunities associated with a higher ranked school, or if I should go with the #111 and call it a day. I feel as though I will end up in California since I’m from there and am interested in working in the area, and if thats the case, does it really matter whether or not I go to UCLA or Chapman since I’ll be networking in California regardless? Plus, with coronavirus and the incredibly likely impending recession, should I just take the money and run? Taking up some debt isn’t an issue for me, but in these uncertain times its difficult to predict what can happen.

    Also, should I be considering the other California schools as well? Since they are higher ranked than chapman and gave me more money than Cornell and ucla, should I be choosing one of those instead to sort of balance out the decision (money vs. rank)?

    I’m waiting on a few more schools, but as the April 15th deadline approaches I know I should be narrowing down my decision.

    Thank you! I know I have other question but thats the most pressing one I got. Any help or advice you can give me is appreciated!

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      April 11, 2020 at 7:26 pm

      Hey Taylor,

      Thanks for the question! This is an interesting set of options, but would you mind adding one piece of information here for all schools? That would be full Cost of Attendance for all three years, total. I’d like to see your exact debt for each school (that includes the ones aside from the three you named as likely primaries).

      As for the choice, it matters. Geography alone is not an automatic success, as shown by the comparison of Chapman and UCLA.

      Thanks!

      Reply
  13. C Elizabeth says

    April 6, 2020 at 8:15 pm

    Hi Dave,

    Thanks for the helpful article! I was hoping you could provide me with some insight regarding my current situation (that of prestige vs. debt free).

    I have been out of undergrad for 6 years and I am certain that I want to pursue public interest law. I have been working in deportation defense in AZ for the past 2 years and although I thoroughly enjoy immigration law, I would like to take advantage of the opportunity to explore other areas of public interest law (particularly international public interest law). My dream career would be in international human rights law, perhaps working abroad for an NGO.

    My options are:

    University of Arizona- Full ride- I am not 100% sure that I would like to stay in AZ but it is a great location to study and practice immigration law. The cost of living is cheap and I would graduate with very little debt. UA has a great immigration program, however, I feel like choosing UA would virtually eliminate the possibility of working in international human rights law let alone outside of the state of AZ.

    University of Minnesota- 50% scholarship on resident tuition + selected as a Robina Public Interest Scholar (guaranteed summer funding and direct guidance and counseling). UMN has a strong International Human Rights Law program including a center and a certificate as well as a great immigration clinic. MSP is also a bigger city which means more opportunities for public interest externships/ field placement etc. However, I do not see myself staying in the midwest (although it seems like a JD for UMN is more versatile than UA).

    UC Berkeley- sticker price- my “reach”/dream school. I love that the school is committed to social justice and many students are pursuing careers in public interest. Strong LRAP program and a strong International Human Rights Clinic.

    I am typically very risk adverse. I took a full ride scholarship for my B.A. and M.A. and currently I have zero student debt.

    *I am also in at Georgetown (sticker price) but at this point, I would choose Berkeley over Georgetown.

    Any insight is greatly appreciated! Thank you.

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      April 11, 2020 at 5:07 pm

      Hello C Elizabeth,

      Thanks for the message! First, congrats on a very successful cycle. You’ve gotten in to some great schools and you should be proud 🙂 Second, let’s turn to your choices. My take here is that you are looking at a classic lineup of options, and that means the choice will be difficult. For those reading, in a nutshell it looks like this:

      A T50 school for free.
      A T25 school for 50% off.
      A T10 school at full cost.

      You also have a very diverse set of locations in play, and in some respects they couldn’t be much different as schools and cities. We don’t have final COA, which would help here since your Minnesota scholarship is based on resident tuition. It would be interesting to know exactly how much more Berkeley would be for you, but costs would seem to be something like Arizona = $0, Minnesota = $130K, and Berkeley = $300K.

      Let’s start with Arizona vs Minnesota, using https://www.lstreports.com/compare/arizona/minnesota/berkeley/ as a base referral point. You can see immediately that Minnesota has strongly superior placement outcomes, and in a sense that’s what you are paying for if you go here. It’s also a T25 school and has been very stable over time. I’m from Minnesota, and totally understand the desire not to live there (lol) but at least it’s the best school in a reasonably sized metropolis. Arizona isn’t even the best school in the state or in the biggest city in the state (as you obviously know). That said, I have a good friend at UA who took the money over ASU and she’s enjoyed it so far and has had excellent outcomes (or did, until covid-19). Either way, for me the Robina actually makes a difference here since it’s matched to your clear and strong desire for public interest law, and it connects you to support and a network aimed at that career. The greater degree portability and focused support on the Robina probably tilt me towards Minnesota, but if you went the other way it would make sense to me as well. There’s risk here with the debt but you are indeed buying better employment outcomes with that debt.

      That leaves Minnesota vs Berkeley. Now we add a significant amount of debt for outcomes that are even better (although not as much as the improvement from Arizona to Minnesota). Berkeley is obviously great, and I’ve sent hundreds of students there over the years who loved it. The name opens doors and the activism aspect of the school is extremely strong and well-known. They key to me is the LRAP repayment and how that would affect your debt outcome. In fact, it’s so important that I don’t think you can make this decision without spreadsheeting the costs to see the final difference between the three schools. It’s quite likely that Berkeley ends up being a better deal than Minnesota, and that might end up being a small enough difference to allow you to mentally release the Arizona full ride.

      So, that’s what I’d do if I were you: chart every cost and get a full picture of how things look with the LRAP in full force. then feel free to hit me back–I’d fascinated to see the numbers!

      Thanks!

      Reply
  14. L says

    April 3, 2020 at 2:22 pm

    Hi Dave,

    I REALLY need your help!

    I have two amazing offers and cannot decide between them both:

    First year free at Colorado Law (#45 USNR #50 ATL) and 10k off the remaining 2 years. This will leave me in debt @ 1k/mo for ~7 years. Total: $86,800 (tuition+COL)

    Full-ride at UNH Law (#88 USNR n/a ATL) and part of DWS program (do not have to take NH bar, automatically admitted). 1k/mo debt for 2yrs to pay off living. Total: $22,200 (COL)

    Both are amazing options and I am having difficulty deciding between the two. Both have relatively the same statistics in regards to median income and bar passage rates. However, I have a feeling that the median income is skewed at UNH since many of its grads have B.S. degrees and are going into IP/patent (which I am not). Additionally, Colorado Law has 20% more people heading to big law, 15% vs 5% in state clerkships, and 1% vs. 0% in federal clerkships compared to UNH. Additionally, Colorado Law has 71% of grads in long-term JD-required jobs while UNH law only has 60%.

    I am interested in public interest/judicial clerkships and possibly academia down the line. I am averse to debt, but after visiting Colorado I truly loved the environment. That being said, UNH has offered me an amazing opportunity that I feel like I can grow well as well. Ultimately, I am asking is Colorado Law worth the extra the extra 40k+?

    I looked into public interest fellowship programs at both schools, both seem to have great opportunities to give stipends to those interested in public interest. It seems like a big fish, small pond and small pond, big fish choice.

    Any and all thoughts can help.

    Thanks again!
    -L

    Reply
  15. Justin Sanchez says

    April 3, 2020 at 6:07 am

    Hello!

    PowerScore’s LSAT prep course is a big part of what got me into multiple law schools…so I think it wise to come back and ask for some advice on choosing where to actually go now. To start out, my career goal is to become a deputy district attorney…And no matter where I go to school, I hope to eventually return and work in my home of Orange county, California. With that being said, here are my offers:

    Pepperdine (47th)- $60,000 scholarship
    [Pro: Highest ranked school I got into; and I love the area and environment//Con: This scholarship offer is far lower than the others and would put me in a lot of debt.
    {Note: I am willing to take on the debt if the rank would actually be worth the gained career benefits…I’m just not sure if that’s the case.}

    Loyola Marymount (62) – $129,000 scholarship
    [Pro: I’m very happy with this scholarship offer and their trial advocacy program is #5 in the nation (Great for the type of work I hope to do.)// Con: To be frank, I’m not a huge fan of Los Angeles. I don’t love the idea of living/working there during and after school…and fear I may be miserable in the city.] (Should I suck it up in light of its high trial advocacy rank? Maybe I’ll learn to enjoy LA?)

    University of San Diego (83) – $114,000 scholarship
    [Pro: I basically love everything about this school and am happy with the scholarship amount// Con: They are not known for specializing in the type of law I want to do; and I’ve been told their “lower” rank may hurt my chances with job opportunities.] (Is this an unfounded concern?)

    Chapman (111) – $ Full Ride
    [Pro: this was my undergrad and going here means I could live at home and pay no money for anything// Con: Deep down I feel I’m ready to go somewhere different and may grow more as a person elsewhere…Also, I have again been told the rank will do harm when trying to establish my career.] (Is this also an unfounded concern?)

    Thank you for giving me the tools necessary to get into law school. And thank you for now taking the time to help me make the right choice in choosing the school that best fits me.

    Best,
    Justin M. Sanchez

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      April 5, 2020 at 5:34 pm

      Hey Justin,

      Thanks for the question! Would you mind adding one piece of information here for all schools? That would be full Cost of Attendance for all three years, total. I’d like to see your exact debt for each school.

      Thanks!

      Reply
      • Justin Sanchez says

        April 7, 2020 at 4:26 am

        Hello sir!

        COA for all three years:

        Pepperdine- 196,080

        Loyola- 147,420

        USD- 138,642

        Chapman- 40,101

        It may be worth mentioning that my parents will help me pay off my debt.

        Thank you,
        Justin

        Reply
        • Dave Killoran says

          April 11, 2020 at 7:58 pm

          Hi Justin,

          Thanks for the reply and updated info. It’s helpful, and I also really appreciate your personal insights into how you’d feel at each school. That makes a difference!

          Let’s start by addressing one idea that you reference, which is concern over going to a school that doesn’t seem to specialize in your area of interest. to be honest, so much of law curriculum is standardized that it’s not a huge issue. Most employers (not all, especially those focused on IP and tax) don’t worry so much about the specialty of a school but rather it’s overall perceived quality (in other words, rank). The legal field is all about reputation, and for better or worse the rank of the school you attended makes a long-term difference for most people (not everyone, but most). Which leads to the next point that rank typically matters, and when you look at employment outcomes you see that very clearly in most instances. Consider for example the comparison between the two schools with the most similar total debt: Loyola and USD. Per LST, the comparison is as follows: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/loyola-la/sandiego/. On employment you can see that Loyola–which is ranked more highly as you noted–solidly bests USD. I have a really hard time recommending USD from a financial perspective when for a relatively small sum of $9K you can get much better outcomes. Of course, I also noted what you said about living in LA, and I’m also a believer that if you don’t like your environs, you won’t perform well. So, both options have issues in my opinion. An aside: I lived in LA for years and enjoyed it. Living downtown is not where I’d live–head towards West LA or near UCLA. Tons of downtown law students (such as those from Loyola and USC) live away from their schools and out on the westside.

          If you add Chapman to the above comparison, you can see why it’s relatively cheap: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/loyola-la/sandiego/chapman/. The employment outcomes get worse overall (they’ve improved in recent years but still not great). But then let’s note what you said about careers: you want to be a DA and be in the OC. So Chapman is more attractive there because of location and connections. If debt avoidance is the top goal, Chapman is the clear winner. The question when compared to the other two schools is: are Loyola/USD worth 100K more in debt to gain outcomes that are improved but still not slam dunks? I’m not sure they are worth it. $40 or $50K maybe, but $100K extra is a lot.

          So then Pepperdine. I love Pepperdine and the location cannot be beat (seriously–the view is ridiculous). But employment wise they aren’t worth $50K more than Loyola; their numbers are a bit worse in a number of instances (biglaw, for example). So, while it’s a million dollar view, it’s not worth more than Loyola (to me, not to everyone). I’d likely remove them from this equation because I don’t think they are worth more than some of your other cheaper choices.

          So, just on employment numbers and debt, it would be Chapman vs Loyola. And that’s where it comes down to you. What’s the bigger issue to you–dislike of LA? Desire to get away from your undergrad school and try something new? Lower debt or higher rank/employment? I see a real debate here since it’s a $100K difference, and the more expensive school doesn’t exactly thrill you.

          I hope that helps, but keep in mind this is my thoughts only and this is your choice. You have to go where you feel you will do best–that’s will outweigh all things in the long run. Please let me know if it made sense!

          Reply
          • Justin Sanchez says

            April 14, 2020 at 6:01 pm

            This makes a lot of sense! Thank you for giving me such an in-depth response. I really appreciate you taking the time to give me a breakdown like this…Leaves me with a lot to think about. I’m gonna dwell on this info for a bit and will be making a final decision within the next few days.

            Best,
            Justin

          • Dave Killoran says

            April 14, 2020 at 6:09 pm

            Sounds good and glad we could help! If you don’t mind, please keep me posted on the decision you make. I’d love to know what you ultimately decide!

          • Justin Sanchez says

            April 20, 2020 at 6:15 pm

            Hell Sir,

            You asked for my final decision update so here it is: I committed to the University of San Diego!

            Out of all the advice you gave me, the thing that really stuck with me was what you said about choosing the school I thought I would best perform at. You weren’t the first person to tell me this; but the amount of times I had heard this really made me respect the sentiment of it. Plus, as you said, the right environment is important for performance as well. (This is something I wholly agree with…four years of studying psychology taught me there’s truth to this).

            So with those factors in mind, USD became the obvious choice for me.

            On a side note: I looked again at the COA numbers and saw I had made a miscalculation. The difference between Loyola and USD would have been 22,000…not 9,000. Not sure if that would’ve made a difference in your analysis but thought it worth mentioning.

            Anyway, I just wanted to say thank you again. PowerScore’s prep course was a big part of what got me into law school. And the fact that you personally took the time to answer my questions really means a lot.

            My Best,
            Justin

          • Dave Killoran says

            April 21, 2020 at 6:18 pm

            Hey Justin,

            Thanks for the final update, and congrats on your decision! I’m so pleased we’ve been able to help you along the way 🙂 I’m sure you will enjoy San Diego, and I look forward to hearing of your legal exploits down the line.

            Thanks and work hard next year!

  16. Peter says

    April 1, 2020 at 9:48 pm

    Hi Dave,

    I’ve been offered $120K from Northwestern and $35K from Columbia. I have requested that Columbia reconsider their offer but am not expecting much if any increase. Assuming my 529 doesn’t sustain significant losses during this soon-to-be recession, NU will require me to take out about $100K in loans, Columbia $200K.

    In terms of my career goals, I would ideally like to obtain a federal clerkship, though I know neither school is great for that. I intend to work in Big Law, but I wouldn’t want to be stuck in a Big Law job if I didn’t like it––at least not for more than a couple of years. At the moment I picture myself working in Big Law for a few years, then transitioning to public interest, but I’m not married to this plan. I would describe myself as vaguely ambitious; I want to be doing the most interesting work I can in the long term. (And I have no interest in trial work.)

    I would also really like to attend Columbia. I love NYC (I have never visited Chicago), Morningside Heights, and, frankly, I like its prestige.

    At a glance, Columbia’s LRAP program also seems to be superior, with a higher income threshold and the possibility of applying after leaving a private-sector job. On the other hand, I’m hesitant to rely on LRAP at all, since the schools could cancel these programs at any moment if they run into financial difficulty, and they are at least partially dependent on the federal program, which seems to help very few attorneys.

    Do you think Columbia in my case is worth the extra $100K of debt?

    Thanks for your help!
    Peter

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      April 2, 2020 at 4:29 pm

      Hey Peter,

      Thanks for the message! And congrats on some fine options–no matter what you choose here you will be good I’d wager 🙂

      There’s a bit of an internal conflict here because on the one hand you mention wanting to work in biglaw but then also wanting to leave that job category if you don’t like it. That’s a problem because the more debt you take on, the less freedom of choice you will have due to monthly payments. So, your debt choice may constrain those public service option going forward, LRAP or not.

      That aside, your two schools compare as follows:

      * Columbia, ranked #4: COA $200K. Power employment percentage (all clerkships + firm employment at firms of 250 or more) = 5.6% + 74.4% = 80%

      * Northwestern, ranked #9: COA $100K. Power employment percentage = 9.1% + 65.9% = 75%

      These are both very good outcomes, so the choice isn’t obvious. It’s essentially down to a few things for you: the extra 5% in power hiring/prestige costs you $100K, and you also would get to live in a place you clearly like vs one you don’t know anything about. That last factor is important to me since people tend to perform better in places where they are comfortable and enjoying themselves.

      Columbia is a killer school and as close to a “lock” as far as employment as you can get out there (along with HYS and Chicago). But ti gives you less flexibility for w while due to paying off that extra $100K. Northwestern gives you very similar outcomes for a cost that’s significantly more manageable, which would allow you greater flexibility to walk away from biglaw and do what appeals to you.

      thus, the choice here is about your preferences, and those aren’t entirely clear above. I believe you need to spend some time looking at different options and talking to people in the field about possible directions for your career. While you may be “vaguely ambitious” (my new fave phrase btw!) you also were attracted to the appeal of Columbia so you might be more ambitious than you think. I said above there’s no wrong choice here, and if you are truly debt averse you go Northwestern; if you want to shoot for the highest possible launch point, you go Columbia.

      I’d love to hear the final decision so please keep us posted. Thanks!

      Reply
  17. Sofie says

    April 1, 2020 at 10:54 am

    Hi Dave,

    I heard about this blog on your podcast, decided to give it a shot.

    I’ve narrowed down my potential schools to three options: UCLA ($100,000+), ASU (full), Northwestern (~$90,000)

    Eventually, I want to end up somewhere in the western states, but I feel comfortable moving to any of those cities for school. I’m interested in entertainment law, but it isn’t a dealbreaker for me. Pretty sure I am not interested in Public Interest but open to all other areas. I am debt averse, but willing to take out some loans if I’m reasonably confident they will pay off.

    Any advice is appreciated!

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      April 1, 2020 at 12:38 pm

      Hi Sofie,

      Thanks for the message. I’m going to assume those those are your scholarship offers, but those alone don’t tell me enough to really help here. What we need is cost of attendance (COA), and because some schools have in-state residency discounts and I don’t know where you are living currently, I need you to come back and post the COA figures for you personally, if you don’t mind 🙂

      Thanks so much!

      Reply
      • Sofie says

        April 1, 2020 at 12:50 pm

        Thanks for your response! Yes those are my scholarship offers, and I am currently living in Utah. These are the COA figures for each school:

        UCLA offered me a resident tuition waiver, so this is calculated with their in-state tuition: $38,964

        Northwestern: $110,418

        ASU: $0, full tuition and fees are covered through O’Connor Honors Program (extended deadline April 15)

        Also would like to add that I have not negotiated my offer with Northwestern yet.

        Reply
        • Dave Killoran says

          April 1, 2020 at 1:25 pm

          Hi Sofie,

          Thanks for the info! You can see how much of a difference that makes here 🙂

          So your schools compare as follows, using https://www.lstreports.com/compare/northwestern/ucla/asu/ as a reference. I’m going to focus on biglaw related employment opportunities based on what you said:

          Northwestern, ranked #9: $110,418. Power employment percentage (all clerkships + firm employment at firms of 250 or more) = 9.1% + 65.9% = 75%

          UCLA, ranked #15: $38,964. Power employment percentage = 5.7% + 38.5% = 44.2%

          ASU, ranked #24: $0. Power employment percentage = 9.8% + 6.5% = 16.3%

          You can see the rankings relate very directly to higher chances of power outcomes, which makes sense given the nature of the legal hiring world. Speaking bluntly, ASU does not fare well here (and there’s been controversy there recently over their handling of grades during the COVID crisis–read up on that if you haven’t already). The number itself is low and only 1 in 6 grads are going into what are the higher prestige/eventually high paying jobs. For $39K you can almost triple your outcomes at UCLA, and to me that increase is worth the $39K as you are now closer to a 1 in 2 chance.

          That leaves UCLA and Northwestern. Overall $110K isn’t the worst law school debt out there, and you again almost double your outcomes and now you’d be at 3 out of 4 chances to land something that would lead you to where you want to go. Or, alternatively, you go from 44% to 75% and it costs you the difference of ~$71.5K. Not a bad deal!

          So, what I’d do is use the UCLA offer to see if you can leverage Northwestern down a bit. They might not budge here because they won’t see UCLA in the same strata as they are (and they’re right) so you might not get a whole lot. however, you won’t know unless you try and things are so up in the air that you might get really lucky! I don’t see a wrong decision here between UCLA and Northwestern, and if NW came down they would be awfully hard to pass up 🙂

          Last, congratulations on the great set of offers! you’ve had quite a good cycle 🙂

          Thanks and please let me know if this helps!

          Reply
          • Sofie says

            April 1, 2020 at 1:42 pm

            Wow, thank you very much for your insight, this is great! I agree that Northwestern is very difficult to turn down.

            Is there a benefit to UCLA over Northwestern if I am hoping to practice somewhere in the West?

          • Dave Killoran says

            April 1, 2020 at 2:53 pm

            A little bit in LA but keep in mind that Northwestern has a higher national name recognition, and that extends West too. UCLA will always do fine out west because of course everyone knows it (and I’m a personal fan of the school having lived nearby and taught there), so the placement of UCLA grads will always be solid. But overall Northwestern has a bigger name and a more powerful draw.

            Or, put another way, if you walk into an LA firm that interviews 100 UCLA grads a year and only a few NW grads, who do you think stands out?

            Thanks!

  18. Anonymous says

    March 25, 2020 at 4:04 pm

    Dave,

    Thanks for the input! I feel pretty solid about taking the money and running, but it’s nice to have that confirmed by an informed outsider who has considered my thought process. Thank you!

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      March 26, 2020 at 3:31 pm

      No problem, and let me know if anything changes. Thanks!

      Reply
  19. Anonymous says

    March 25, 2020 at 1:32 pm

    Just following up to confirm that I have officially been offered full tuition at Michigan, which would mean a debt total debt of $23,000 or under. Eagerly awaiting your thoughts!

    Reply
  20. Anonymous says

    March 24, 2020 at 8:45 pm

    Hi Dave,

    Read this article, found it immensely helpful, and am happy to see you’re still answering questions! Hopefully you’ll have time to respond to mine. My options are currently narrowed down to Michigan and Harvard, and maybe NYU if I get RTK or Furman. A little bit more about my interests:

    I’ve taken 4 years off and have mainly worked in policy (both in local government and at advocacy organizations). I want to continue pursuing PI work in law school. I have a pretty strong aversion to the hours of big law work, but not totally writing it off, especially because I know some PI pathways value a little bit of big law experience. I love my current job at an advocacy org, which has incredible work life balance, and have the general end goal of living a comfortable life doing interesting work (which for me means I don’t necessarily need to be ~rich~ but I also am not interested in making $50,000 as a public defender). Alas, my current job does not have a legal department that I could return to. As of right now, my ideal role would be as policy counsel at an advocacy org. I have strong interests, and work experience, in reproductive justice and education policy, but also would like to use law school as a chance to explore other pet interests in voting rights, housing, or (kind of randomly if I can) food law. I’m also fairly certain I’d like to clerk for at least a year after graduating.

    I imagine for my interests, I’d probably have to spend at least a couple of years in D.C., but I’d like to ultimately end up back in the Midwest (ideally Chicago), maybe working at an advocacy org or in a local government agency.

    Harvard COA: I have $45,910 in need based aid. Assuming I get around that same amount for 2L and 3L, I’ve estimated my total cost (plus living expenses, books, etc) to be $137000.

    Reasons to Attend Harvard: I do not have a strong interest in becoming a professor, but I don’t have a strong interest ~not~ to become a professor. I like having access to Harvard Kennedy School, as someone interest in the intersection of law and policy. And I like that Harvard has a dedicated class or clinic for all of my interests, even food! Plus I love the idea of no grades. But as someone blessed with no undergrad debt, 6-figures is hard for me to swallow, yes even with LIPP.

    UMich COA: I got full tuition at Columbia. I have no interest in attending Columbia. I didn’t like the feel of the school and would like to get out of NYC after being here for 8 years (counting undergrad). I leveraged the full tuition with UMich. I’m still waiting to hear back, but assuming Michigan matches, COA could be anywhere from debt free to around $24000.

    Reasons to Attend Michigan: I am from Ann Arbor and could live at home to save costs. Plus, I miss being around my family. I’d like to settle in Chicago. I like that Michigan has a reputation for being nice. They have decent offerings in voting and education/children issues. I haven’t explored their housing offerings, but I imagine with Detroit right there, there’d be interesting things to do. No Food Law offerings, but I don’t have a strong enough interest for this to be the sole basis of my decision. I’m also very debt adverse and love the idea of being debt free or at least able to manage debt payments without LRAP assistance. If UMich doesn’t give me full tuition, I’d probably knock it out of consideration due to better LRAPs at HLS and NYU.

    NYU COA: ~$80-90K assuming RTK or full-tuition Furman (haven’t crunched the hard numbers yet)

    Reasons to Attend NYU: I’d only consider going if I got full tuition. I really want to leave NYC. But I’m attracted to NYU’s clinical offerings and the dedicated supports that come from the Furman in pursuing my interest in law + policy (a semester in D.C., externship placement at a government agency, etc).

    I know some of the above factors are to be determined, but I think that I’m pretty clear that given the above scenario it’s a toss up. Given less than full tuition at UMich vs. RTK/Furman at NYU or HLS, then Michigan is out, but would HLS be worth $40K more than NYU? 
What should I do?

    Thanks for parsing through my different scenarios!

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      March 25, 2020 at 2:37 pm

      Hi Anon,

      Thanks for the message! Well, the good news is that you have a wealth of quality choices, so congrats to you on a very successful cycle so far 🙂

      As it stands, the situation is:

      Harvard COA: $137000.

      UMich COA: Under $24000.

      NYU COA: ~$80-90K.

      And while these are all schools we know well, just for due diligence purposes it’s good to check the numbers: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/michigan/harvard/nyu/. Not all that dissimilar, although NYU tends to send more people to big firms (which makes sense) and less so to clerkships. So, assuming nothing changes, this is how I view it:

      NYU: this is the first school off the list for me since you want out of NYU. If you were really biglaw focused that might change things, as would a change in the financials, but it sounds like you are over NYC, so given the debt I personally would remove it.

      Now it’s Harvard vs Michigan, and since I personally tend to be debt averse I would have to really have a good reason to choose Harvard here. Yes, it’s a fab school and everyone knows it and the Kennedy school is there, but is it worth $113,000+ simply to get those benefits when the alternative is very similar? Not to me. So unless you suddenly decide that being a prof is where it’s at, I would tend towards Michigan.

      All that said, these are all great choices and no “bad” ones 🙂 So, congrats again on that!

      Reply
  21. Sven says

    March 11, 2020 at 11:04 am

    Hey there,

    Thanks for an incredibly helpful article!

    I find myself utterly torn between two great options. I am a fifth generation rancher from southwest Oklahoma, and I know that I would like to raise my family in the area. That being said, I feel a strong desire to seek clerkship for a federal judge, and I do not want to limit myself to the Midwest.

    I have received the Sumners full ride scholarship to Southern Methodist University in Dallas. In addition to the monetary appeal, the Sumners scholarship instantly plugs me into an outstanding alumni network.

    I have also been admitted to University of Pennsylvania. I do not know about scholarships yet, but even if I receive some it will certainly not be a full ride.

    The median salary of UPenn is 180k (SMU is 100k), but I do not know if that is exclusive to the region. Would a large Dallas firm pay more to a Penn Grad?

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      March 11, 2020 at 4:13 pm

      Hi Sven,

      Thanks for the message and congratulations on the acceptances and scholarship! You are in an enviable position with a full ride already in your pocket 🙂

      Here’s the thing about the comparison you make: Penn is a national school and the name opens doors everywhere, including Texas. But, it’s also the case that many Penn grads are looking to break into biglaw in the biggest legal markets, and this you see a very high percentage go into big firms (around 70+%), with NYC, Philadelphia, and DC accounting for around 70% of their placement. Can a Penn grad go into Texas an pull a high salary? Yes they can because of the national name and ranking, but keep in mind there are fewer opportunities for that in Dallas vs NYC, and so you see fewer grads heading to Texas.

      So, what happens if you get down to a top grad from SMU vs a top grad from Penn going for the same job in Dallas? Then it becomes a battle of familiarity vs national prestige/ranking. Law is a very elitist field, and and most law firms tend toward the bigger name, almost like they caught a big fish. Most of the time, the firm would say we have plenty of SMU grads but not Penn folks, so all else equal go with Penn

      The real research of interest here is the percentage of positions in DFW/Houston that are $150K+ salaries for new associates. What I can see at a glance is that it’s maybe 10% max, and for those, Penn would make a difference and get you in the running. But I don’t know how many 10% equals to in actual spots, so that’s what I’d really look at.

      Btw, if you get a federal clerkship, you’re golden regardless. That’s the most desirable position out there and turns you into a hot commodity. There you again see the Penn advantage: 7.4% of Penn grads get one vs 2.5% of SMU grands (and, SMU is in a less competitive sector than Penn, since many people try to get those jobs in the region where they go to school). Something to think about.

      Please let me know if this helps, and let me know what you decide. Thanks!

      Reply
  22. Austin says

    February 29, 2020 at 1:33 pm

    Hi there!

    I’m trying to figure out where to go to school. I have an offer from UCLA with a 10k/yr scholarship, which doesn’t really do much financially. I’ve also heard different things about UCLA’s reputation–originally, I considered them a school with a national reach, but as of late I’m worried that I would be stuck practicing in California. I have a few other acceptances I’m considering: GW with 20k/yr scholarship, Emory with a 25k/yr scholarship, and Fordham (who has yet to send me scholarship info–but considering the other schools, I expect to get something). I would like to practice in an east coast city, whether it be D.C. or NYC or Chicago, and I would like to make enough money that this investment actually makes sense. After looking more closely at the bimodal salary curve, I worry that at any of these options, I am going to be left with massive debt and poor career prospects. Any advice? Should I keep UCLA in the running?

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      February 29, 2020 at 7:00 pm

      Hi Austin,

      Thanks for the message. This could ultimately prove to be a tough choice for you, but at least you have options so things aren’t bad at all 🙂 A few thoughts:

      UCLA is fringe national. Meaning, everyone knows the school and thinks it is solid, but outside of California there will be occasional regional preferences that outweigh the name. But, every legal hiring manager in the country knows UCLA and has some familiarity with it, which is more than GW or Emory can claim (and really Fordham too). That said, availability doesn’t get the job on its merits alone, and so can you get hired in a large market outside of CA? Yes, you can see that about 6% of their grads go to NY and 2% to DC. Small percentages but it tells you that jobs are available and sometimes it’s good to not be the 100th Fordham or GW grad they interview, if that makes sense.

      The high percentage of in state CA placement (around 80%) for UCLA is a product of both the fact that many west coast based students go there and the fact that LA and SF are two big legal markets that they have access to. If you’re from the west and can interview in those cities, you probably end up in a job there. So, that’s less regional than it looks.

      With what you have in terms of options, the money makes a huge difference. No school in your group has a slam dunk rep that justifies taking on large debt, and so outcomes/debt appears to rightly be your focus (congrats on that!). The Fordham offer can’t be evaluated because without the $$, there’s no baseline cost yet and thus I can’t factor them in. Between the other three, UCLA has a definite edge in employment, so I’d look at the total cost of attendance thereafter and less so on how much each school gives you. UCLA has better placement and a bigger name, and that’s worth something (how much is the question). Side note if it does come down to Fordham and UCLA: Take a close look at the Fordham placement: it’s great in NY but falls off rapidly once you get out of the northeast. A city like Chicago is a lot less likely for you with a Fordham degree (which may be worth it since the NY power is very good).

      One thought: look around on Reddit or elsewhere for a UCLA grad who then worked in NY/DC, and seek them out. Most people are helpful and they can give you a first-hand info on how the process was for them.

      Last point is that you are right to question the location vs debt vs career outcomes, and while I think you’ve got decent choices, if you feel the debt is too high, take a year off. I can’t see your GPA/LSAT numbers, but the surest way to change your admissions options and financial offers is to try the LSAT again and in the meantime strengthen your resume. Certainly it’s terrible to wait a year, but I just had a student apply a year ago with a similar slate of school to yours, not like her options, come back to retake the test while working in a law firm, and who will be now be going to a T6 this upcoming fall with about $120K less debt overall from what she would have taken on last year (at a lower ranked school).

      Please let me know what you decide, I’d love to hear how it turns out. Thanks and good luck!

      Reply
  23. Barry says

    February 27, 2020 at 1:32 am

    Hi Dave

    I am from Ohio, and not sure exactly what type of law I’d like to practice, but think I’m interested in clerkship or Biglaw, preferably in DC or NYC, and have the following offers:

    BC – full tuition
    George Mason – full tuition
    Vanderbilt – $45k scholarship per year
    UVA – $10k scholarship per year

    I will likely have some family contribution, so the pure economics are likely less important than they otherwise would be, but are still meaningful.

    I am attracted to UVA in the flexibility it provides for strong job outcomes in numerous disciplines and geographic locations, but am struggling with the cost differential. I have studied the LST data – UVA seems significantly stronger, especially for placement in DC.

    How would you rank these offers if: (1) wanted to practice in Boston, or (2) wanted to practice in NY or DC? Thanks so much!

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      February 27, 2020 at 1:37 pm

      Hey Barry,

      Thanks for the message! I tend to think of things in job position outcomes, and if you are truly focused on biglaw or the more elusive clerkship, UVA is tough to beat. On name/results alone, it simply ranks above the other schools. Of course, that comes with a hefty price, and that’s where the problem is as you already pointed out.

      As far as the four offers, to me the BC offer cancels/overrrides the George Mason offer, so it’s down to three schools for me: BC, Vandy, UVA.

      Geographically, since you’ve seen the LST data you have a sense of what happens. If it’s just about being in a certain location that’s one thing, but if it’s about a certain location AND a specific type of job, then the outcomes change. For example, we can see that BC places around 65% of grads in Massachusetts. UVA and Vandy are far less, so much so that Boston/Mass doesn’t even show up in the top spots their grads land. So it looks like BC has a huge Boston advantage, right? Not necessarily. UVA grads tend to go into high-profile jobs in DC and NY, and don’t focus as much on Boston. So, if they were to go hard at Boston, they’d be a bit unusual which would stand out. In Boston, there are tons of BC grads which is both a great network but also one flooded with people bearing the same credentials as you. You can use the network to get a job but you might not get the type of job you seek. So be careful in how you interpret the stats 🙂

      With the above in mind, it’s about what type of job you want after. If clerkships are your thing (and federal ones are the big deal), it’s UVA by almost a double margin over Vandy. If it’s biglaw, it’s UVA and then to a lesser extent Vandy. If it’s not as important to hit those two spots (or a professorship), then it’s BC. Location is less important here since you may change you mind; the name of the school you graduate from is the card that opens doors in the legal field, so first you should really look at where you want to be as far as a job position, then go from there.

      I hope that helps, and please let me know what you decide!

      Reply
  24. Dan says

    February 20, 2020 at 5:04 pm

    Hey Dave,

    Thanks for taking the time to read my post. I’m currently trying to decide between two Philadelphia schools: Drexel (with a full ride) and Temple (with a 50% scholarship).

    I currently work as a paralegal in Philadelphia, and it’s well know that Temple is very highly regarded within the city. Discounting Penn, I’ve been told that it should be the school to aspire to go to if I want to practice in Philly. It has better job placement than Drexel, and it has much better resources/amenities than Drexel, as I saw on my visits to both schools. As it stands with the offer they gave me, I’d be paying about $15,000 per year in tuition at Temple, which I thought was ridiculously cheap until…

    Drexel offered me a full ride. Unlike Temple’s law school which was founded in 1895, Drexel has really only been around since 2013. It’s kind of a wild card in Philadelphia. They aren’t far behind in job placement, but I did not come away as impressed with the curriculum. While I feel like I could probably excel at Drexel, the resources Temple offers to its students in terms of clinicals, intern/externships, on campus interviews, etc. make me feel like it’s too good to pass up on.

    I should add that I am a Temple undergrad alum, and absolutely loved my time there.

    I can’t seem to figure this one out. Temple was my dream school, but I’m afraid if I don’t take the money I will be sitting there 5-10 years down the road with my debt thinking “Man, I could have just gone to Drexel.”

    Once again, thanks for reading my post. Really appreciate all that you do for us prospective law students!

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      February 20, 2020 at 7:00 pm

      Hey Dan,

      Thanks for the message! Your explanation here makes me think Temple would be the better call for you, including “it has much better resources/amenities than Drexel, as I saw on my visits to both schools” and “I did not come away as impressed with the curriculum” and “the resources Temple offers to its students in terms of clinicals, intern/externships, on campus interviews, etc. make me feel like it’s too good to pass up on” and “I am a Temple undergrad alum, and absolutely loved my time there.” Everything there points to, “I like Temple and think I could do really well there.” That to me is key since you performance will be the determining factor once you get into the job search market (on top of school rep, of course).

      Other factors:

      * The cost difference isn’t too bad considering you are looking at the 48th ranked school vs the 100th ranked.

      * The numbers are closer than one would think, but still in Temple’s favor: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/drexel/temple/

      * People in Philly have told you to go to Temple.

      * You already were satisfied with the financials at Temple before this new offer came in.

      I’d say go with your gut and follow your heart to Temple, and then just focus on doing well. Whatever environment maximizes your ability to perform is typically the right choice 🙂

      I hope that helps. Thanks and good luck!

      Reply
  25. Leila says

    February 16, 2020 at 9:14 am

    Hi everyone,

    I’m not sure if anyone is still updating this blog, but I’ve got a dilemma like everyone else. I’ve read about 60% of the comments and saw similar situations, but can’t help but get a personalized answer.

    I have (as of now) no money to both Columbia and UChicago. I have a full ride to both Minnesota (#20) and UBoston (#23). I also have partial at USC and Vanderbilt. I am getting advice across the board from friends and family with law degrees. I want to practice BigLaw. I really hate to take on debt, but turning down a top 5 seems like a big no-no to a lot of people I am seeking advice from.

    I’d love to discuss with anyone.
    Thank you!

    Reply
  26. Anonymous says

    January 21, 2020 at 3:42 pm

    Hi Dave,

    Sorry for a slightly off topic question (I wasn’t able to create an account on the message board, so thought I’d leverage this thread):

    What would you think of including in an application a supplement that’s basically a request for a merit scholarship?

    I’ve got T3 stats (175, 3.95), but I want to attend a particular T6 that’s basically just down the street from where I live — ideally with a significant scholarship.

    I’m considering including a one-paragraph supplement saying how much I love the area and the school, and that it would be my top choice bar none if they give me a full ride. My general approach in life is not to dance around things — be clear what you want, so that everyone is on the same page and can make the most-informed decision. My hope is the statement would help them overcome any potential yield-protect concerns and also make them more inclined to give their absolute best scholarship offer for my situation. But my worry is that it would come across as arrogant, rude or uncouth — money is always such a touchy subject.

    Additionally, what about taking a similar (but not the same) approach to a T40 in the same city? Obviously I wouldn’t promise them that a scholarship would guarantee my enrollment or anything close to that, but I’d like to let them know that they have a real leg up by being located in my current city, and that a significant scholarship differential would make them very competitive vs the top schools. Even more for this school than the other, I think it would be a good way to allay any yield-protect concerns they might have.

    I would only take this approach for these two schools, because they’re the only two I can honestly say these considerations apply to.

    Any input appreciated!

    Best,
    Anonymous

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      January 21, 2020 at 6:02 pm

      Hey Anon,

      Thanks for the message. What happened when you tried to create a Forum account? In the meantime, some thoughts:

      “I’m considering including a one-paragraph supplement saying how much I love the area and the school, and that it would be my top choice bar none if they give me a full ride.” — Save this approach for later, once you see their actual offer. It’s dicey, and if you get the wrong reader it will indeed come across badly. What you should do is express a strong desire for the school and express the rather delicate hope tat you will be able to attend as you’d love to do so if feasible. That’s a clear but still subtle signal.

      “Additionally, what about taking a similar (but not the same) approach to a T40 in the same city?” — There’s a decent chance they might yield protect here and slow play your app or accept you with a decent but not full scholarship. So, make your interest clear—perhaps a “Why X” essay focusing on how the school is in your city and that you’d absolutely love to continue living where you do, etc. Then see if they come back strong, as you might discover with your stats and local interest they are willing to pony up in a chance to nab you. If the rest of your app is as good as your numbers, you shouldn’t need to send them a message telling them what they need to do; they will already know.

      Talking about money before you’ve been accepted is s dangerous line to walk and as you say, can often come off as arrogant, rude or uncouth. So, push that element until later. Negotiating with top applicants is the norm and happens every day. But you need an acceptance and offer in hand in order to do so effectively, otherwise you look presumptuous. Can it be done? sure, but it requires a deft hand, and a careful shaping of your message, and most people don’t execute it well enough and instead end up damaging their overall chances.

      Thanks!

      Reply
      • Anonymous says

        January 22, 2020 at 1:12 pm

        Thanks Dave, exactly the input I was looking for!

        And I figured out my issue with the forums — the confirmation email went to my spam folder. Silly of me not to think to check there.

        Thanks again!

        Reply
  27. Michele says

    January 17, 2020 at 7:48 am

    Hi,

    I am currently at a law school ranked at 100 with a full academic scholarship. I have received my grades for the fall semester and have ranked top 5% and hope to either maintain or improve on that during the upcoming spring semester.

    I was wondering your thoughts on transferring to a better ranked school, my options would include Columbia, NYU, and Fordham, as I would like to remain in NY. I am aware that transfers do not have the ability to be considered for scholarships so I would have to pay the full tuition at any of the schools previously listed (current tuition looks to be roughly $70k a year at Columbia and NYU and slightly less at Fordham). I would have the ability to live at home and commute to any of those schools so room and board are not monetary factors that need to be considered. Although money is a huge factor, I was looking for opinions on whether the switch would be worth it. I do not have a preferred field after graduation but I am not opposed to big law in NYC, and am quite interested in possibly pursuing a job in academia.

    I also know that if I were to transfer my ranking would likely drop, I am hoping not below top 30%. Would you suggest transferring and would the drop in ranking impact job prospects despite the prestige that comes with the better ranked school?

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      January 17, 2020 at 2:03 pm

      Hi Michele,

      thanks for the message. There’s no “right” answer here, only what works best for your career path. Graduating at the top of most any school will open some doors, but obviously the name-brand power of a T6 school does the same. And if you did graduate in the top quarter, you’d be looking at some excellent offers, so for me the drop in ranking isn’t a major worry. The question is, can you deal with the debt? I can’t answer that for you since I’m not the one who would have to pay it, but I would advise you to look carefully at the monthly on such a debt vs the likely salary you’d be looking at. It could easily be that moving to a T6 school would be financially sound, but only you know your exact finances and costs. I

      I can see positives from either situation, so it’s about what feels best for you personally. I know that’s not definitive, but I hope it helps. Good luck!

      Reply
  28. Alex says

    October 13, 2019 at 3:07 am

    Hi Dave,

    Not sure if you’re still providing advice on this topic but I wanted to take a shot anyway. I put off school for another year after last cycle where I had a $32k per year scholarship offer from CWRU and full tuition at Cleveland-Marshall (these are the only schools on my radar since I plan to remain in Cleveland for the foreseeable future). I’m expecting similar offers from both schools this cycle so I wanted to get your input.

    I’m an older/nontraditional student and I’ve worked the last few years as a paralegal at a legal services organization. I’m planning to remain in the public sector after I get my JD, and my current employer made an informal offer for me to return as an attorney after graduating (sounds great to me and is Plan A, but nothing is in writing so I know I’ll need to keep my options open). I can also live with family during school so no worries about living expenses. CWRU’s tuition is about $52k so I’d be about $60k in debt total after three years compared to $0 if I go to Cleveland-Marshall.

    Is CWRU worth the extra debt, especially since I plan to remain in Cleveland anyway? There is a big Cleveland-Marshall alumni network in this city and obviously the full tuition sounds great, but CWRU is ranked a lot higher (71 vs 126) and it has better name recognition outside of Cleveland. However, neither of them are ranked high overall so I’m not sure if the rankings even matter that much once you’re this deep in the numbers.

    Cleveland-Marshall sounds like the obvious choice after typing all of this out but CWRU was my dream school growing up and some of my relatives have suggested for me to go there due to the prestige/name recognition. I don’t think the sentimental/prestige reasons are worth that much debt but I can’t shake the feeling that I’d be passing up an opportunity at CWRU.

    Thanks!
    Alex

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      October 13, 2019 at 6:30 pm

      Hey Alex,

      Thanks for the message! Yes, we still answer questions here, although I get the feeling you have kind of answered your own question here at the end when you said that, “Cleveland-Marshall sounds like the obvious choice.” While $60K isn’t the biggest debt, is it worth moving up 55 spaces? I’d say yes if you were moving into the T25. But that’s not the case here, and you wold be moving into a schjool that is not at all well-known outside Cleveland. Now, if you think that Case name would help you in Cleveland (and I’d ask some of your legal services organization contacts just that), then I could see it. But otherwise if it were me I’d take the money and not look back.

      Please let us know what you decide!

      Reply
      • Alex says

        October 14, 2019 at 9:49 pm

        Thank you! I appreciate your thoughts.

        Reply
  29. Connor says

    August 1, 2019 at 7:35 pm

    Good afternoon,

    I was originally planning and offered to attend Albany Law School (115) at cost of $10k/year (remaining cost after scholarship- Conditional on top 50% of class) plus cost of living (living alone) at $15k.

    So Albany Law CoA – $25K.

    However, St. John’s (77) just called to take me off their wait list at a cost of $40k/year (after scholarship- conditional; dont drop to bottom 20%). I would move in with my parents saving that $15k for room/board/food.

    So St. John’s CoA – $40k.

    (This is not taking into account personal expenses that would be the same for each school) I want to practice in the city and Long Island area, and I have the added security of my social / familial / sober support network. Also, if I were to attain close to a top 25% class rank the first year I would increase my St. John’s scholarship. Would it be irresponsible to attend St. John’s at the added cost of $25-30K a year, or with it due to job opportunities and ranking.

    Thanks,
    Connor

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      August 1, 2019 at 11:15 pm

      Hi Connor,

      Thanks for the message! No, it probably wouldn’t be irresponsible. The difference in amounts is not all that large, and St. Johns definitely has better name recognition than Albany. the employment is better, and the attrition rate is lower: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/albany/stjohns/. I could see an strong case being made for accepting their offer. If you feel better about the school, then it’s not an unreasonable move.

      Thanks and good luck!

      Reply
  30. Ashley W says

    June 21, 2019 at 6:54 am

    Hi Dave!

    So I’ve paid a deposit to West Virginia University (#100, cost will be less than $20k a year), but I just got off of Tulane’s waitlist (#52, only $10k a year). I’m also still waiting to hear back from Baylor (#48), my undergrad and probably what I’d prefer over Tulane. In terms of just picking between Tulane and WVU, is the money really worth the jump in rank?? I’m interested in working in something involving human trafficking or maybe even Title IX law. Possibly might apply to be a JAG at the end of law school…

    Also, I’m thinking I might try to transfer to University of Texas after my first year (awesome school, way better cost than private). I only made a 153 on my LSAT, 3.65 undergrad gpa. I’m also thinking about taking the GRE since Texas now takes that too. Would I have a better shot trying to transfer from Tulane vs WVU? I’ve seen people transfer from Tulane and Baylor, but I’ve also seen that most of their transfer students come from South Texas College of Law in Houston (not ranked).

    Thanks for the help!

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      June 25, 2019 at 11:02 pm

      Hi Ashley,

      Thanks for the question! Do you mean WVU’s total cost is <$20K and Tulane would be around $30K total? I'm confused there by your descriptions. If so, yeah, I'd go Tulane for sure since the difference is so small!If you have the numbers after your 1L year, transferring is a viable option, but be forewarned it's not easy. I'd suspect that UT has more experience with Tulane transfers than WVU transfers, so that factors in as well. But I've not looked at Texas transfer stats in the last year or two, so I'm not entirely sure.GRE is useless to you here. Once there's an LSAT score on record, that's what they use. And law schools aren't very impressed with the GRE yet, so I personally think it would be a waste of your time.I hope that helps. Thanks!

      Reply
  31. Nia says

    June 19, 2019 at 3:59 am

    Is it worth it to try to negotiate between a T14 and a top 30? Wisconsin offered me a 90% scholarship, I wouldn’t have to take the bar and I can work for a federal agency (I currently have 5 years of DC experience). I got waitlisted at Northwestern. It is my dream school and was my first choice. Until Wisconsin made me a scholarship offer at the end of May, my original plan was to reapply next cycle. My ultimate goal is to become a federal judge so going to a school that has better fed clerkship rates is ideal. That being said, is it rude to try to negotiate a 90% offer from Wisconsin with Northwestern while on the waitlist? I don’t want to ruin my shot at acceptance but also not sure the likelihood of me getting into Northwestern with money at this point. I’ve already sent a LOCI and completed their waitlist interview. Also, I checked the law schools of judges for the district courts I want to sit on and its a mix of Wisconsin, Northwestern, or Ivy league.

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      June 19, 2019 at 6:51 pm

      Hi Nia,

      In my experience the answer is No. T14s don’t see themselves as competing with T30 schools, and so you are coming at the negotiation from a place of weakness, and usually those requests are dismissed almost immediately.

      The chances of getting into Northwestern off the waitlist with money aren’t great, as you fear, and while I don’t think attempting to negotiate with them would change your chances of getting in, I also don’t think it would impact any monetary offers they might make. Your best option is likely to call them up and get on with a live person, and ask about your status and explain your dilemma: you really want Northwestern but Wisconsin has made a generous and compelling offer, and is there any indication of what might happen with your WL status so you can make some decisions? That’s not a full negotiation ploy but it puts you in the position of listening to what they say. If you feel the opportunity is there to mention it as leverage, you can do so explicitly but I wouldn’t start out by going right at that point. I’ve heard many adcomms react badly to negotiations using schools they don’t see as on their level so tread carefully here.

      Good luck!

      Reply
  32. Zach says

    June 8, 2019 at 3:58 am

    Hi, I am in a bit of a difficult situation here and could use some advice as to which option is truly better.
    I am currently deposited at Ohio State University Moritz with a scholarship of $11,000 per year. I think it is important to mention that I am an Ohio resident so I am receiving in-state tuition.
    However, I was just accepted recently (Thursday) to Wash U Law off of the waitlist and received the information today that they are offering me a scholarship of $20,000 per year (Super generous and I feel so grateful for this opportunity). I know that Wash U as far as employment, prestige, and overall stats is the superior school in this scenario. I really enjoy what their program has to offer, had a great time on my visit there, and really like the campus.
    My goals are overall not completely set. I find myself interested in the Biglaw route but would not classify myself as “Biglaw or bust.” Location is not a largely significant factor, my SO and family are in Ohio but both are extremely supportive of the situation.
    Wash U set the deadline for me to deposit and “accept” the scholarship on Monday, June 10th so I have to have a decision by then. The question I wanted to pose was—Do you think Wash U is worth the extra $ 60k COA, or does this seem to be too much debt? And if this number is “too much,” is it wrong to ask for a bit of an increase in scholarship so that the extra debt seems comfortable on Monday?

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      June 8, 2019 at 7:04 pm

      Hi Zach,

      There’s never a clear answer on calls like this, but the employment differential (esp biglaw and clerkships) likely makes WashU worth the extra money. But as always, you are the one paying it, so you should closely examine what the extra monthly cost will look like–know the numbers!

      With them pushing your deadline so quickly (Thursday to Monday isn’t exactly a long time), my inclination is that they won’t negotiate with you on additional money. That said, what’s the harm in asking? A simple, “Is there any way we could go to $25K a year? I’ll accept right now if so” or something similar might prod them into movement of some sort here, and every little bit counts.

      Good luck and let us know what happens!

      Reply
  33. Oleh Matviyishyn says

    May 22, 2019 at 8:48 pm

    This is the perfect thread for me and I am hoping you could help me in a pinch as I have to make my decision soon. I got accepted into Rutgers Law and Seton Hall Law. Seton Hall is giving me a $25000 Scholarship and Rutgers is giving me a $12000 scholarship. I live in NJ and would prefer to work in the NJ/NY area. With Seton Hall i would be paying $25k-$27k per year while with Rutgers it would be $13-$15k, so basically about half. I would come out of Seton Hall law with about $35k more in debt but it is a better school. What would you do? I know the $35k isn’t that much of a difference but i wonder if even that is still worth it. My undergrad was at Rutgers and I’m not sure if that helps or hinders anything. Thank you so much and i would appreciate any feedback.

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      May 22, 2019 at 10:28 pm

      Hi Oleh,

      $35K is not a small difference, and I’d be willing to pay for it if the school difference was worth it. #59 vs #77? I’m not so sure it’s worth it. It might be but the ranking difference isn’t huge there, and while SH has better employment outcomes, they aren’t overwhelmingly better. I’d be on the fence here.

      In those cases, then, it comes down to two things:

      1. The school you like better and where you feel you will perform better. The undergrad at Rutgers doesn’t factor in to me because people do undergrad-grad at the same school all the time.

      2. The type of law you think you might be interested in. SH has solidly superior biglaw numbers, so if that’s your goal, that makes a difference.

      Here’s what that $35K would be buying you, by the way: Compare Seton Hall and Rutgers Head-to-Head.

      Think about those two points above, and it should give you some additional clarity here. But I don’t think either is a “bad” choice given what you’ve said 🙂

      Reply
  34. Alex says

    May 13, 2019 at 3:53 pm

    Hi Dave,

    Would appreciate some advice if you have the time. I am planning on attending law school part time in the NYC area and am mostly interested in big law, particularly trusts and estates law (which is the field I work in now). I am a little older (recently turned 27), and just finished paying off undergraduate debt and am a little weary of taking on more . That being said, my goal is a good paying job in big law, so some debt may be worth it. As I had decided on part time, these are the schools I am deciding between:

    Fordham – minimal scholarship money, lets call it sticker price
    Seton Hall – $19,500 in renewable annual scholarship (need to stay in top 75% of class)
    Brooklyn Law – $24,000 in renewable annual scholarship (need to stay in top 80%)
    New York Law – Full Scholarship

    Would love to hear thoughts and suggestions, I know the school name does matter, but I am wondering if it matters any less going part time and already having a job in a similar field? Fordham seems to be consistently the best ranked, and being that I am going part time while working would not be taking on any cost of living debt. Seton Hall seems close behind with considerable scholarship money but I plan to stay in NYC, and what I’ve seen so far is a lot of Seton Hall’s job placement is in NJ. Brooklyn does seem to be ranked considerably higher than NY Law School but the question seems to be, is the better ranking worth about $75K in debt? Any help or things to think about would be appreciated. Thanks a ton!

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      May 13, 2019 at 6:43 pm

      Hey Alex,

      Thanks for the message! To get this down to a manageable choice, we need to eliminate some of these schools from the running. Seton Hall and Brooklyn match up reasonably well here from a financial standpoint, so looking at them head-to-head is useful I think. It’s a close call, but Seton Hall has the better employment stats, so I’d lean that way (which is just numerical; you might like Brooklyn better, and there’s nothing concerning about that at all). So, if we remove Brooklyn, it leaves you with NYLS, Seton Hall, and Fordham (comparison here: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/newyork/setonhall/fordham/). This is then the point you need to contemplate, because the choices are rather stark:

      NYLS: Free, but the employment stats are not great. If biglaw is a goal, this puts you on rocky ground. I also hate that over 22% of their jobs are “JD advantage” and not full attorney spots. It’s free, but job-wise this is an uphill climb.

      Seton Hall: Here you get a little bit of both worlds. The price is reduced and biglaw is a more attainable outcome (although not hugely so).

      Fordham: Debt is heavy, but half the class goes into a large firm job. That’s what you are paying for right here: $300K in order to half a 50-50 shot and a major firm job.

      Personally, $330L at Fordham vs $220K or so at Seton Hall would make me tilt towards Fordham, but I’m not the one taking on the debt. And so it comes down to what kind of job you want vs how much debt you can handle. I’m debt-averse, and strongly recommend you look at the full cost and monthly payment to handle that debt, because this is sort of an all-or-nothing choice with Fordham vs NYLS.

      I’m not sure that’s a huge help, but most of this decision rests with your personal preferences and life preferences. Please let me know what you decide. Thanks!

      Reply
  35. Victor says

    May 8, 2019 at 2:52 am

    Hi Dave,

    Just found this article and it is massively helpful! I am a Powerscore Course Alum–your course materials and instructors were vital to helping me increase my LSAT and create the following opportunities.

    I have deposited at William & Mary with a scholarship that will cover roughly 85% of tuition each year. With low COL in Williamsburg, I foresee the overall cost of attendance to be roughly 70k. I am confident I could pay it all out of pocket without taking out any loans based on having saved my earnings carefully since graduating undergrad a few years back.

    I have recently been contacted by Michigan and Georgetown gauging my interest if they were to accept me off of their respective waitlists.

    While I am definitely interested in the prestige and higher ranking that comes with UM & Gtown, the costs of attending each at sticker price would dictate me going into $250-300k of debt.

    Michigan: USN: 9; ATL: 8; LST Employment: 89.3%; Large Firm: 54%; FedClerk: 13.7%; Underemployment: 6.2%; LST Total Sticker COA: $305k.

    Georgetown: USN: 14; ATL: 16; LST Employment: 81.8%; Large Firm: 56%; FedClerk: 4.5%; Underemployment: 11.8%; LST Total Sticker COA: $350k.

    William & Mary: USN: 39; ATL: 27; LST Employment: 79.7%; Large Firm: 23%; FedClerk: 9.1%; Underemployment: 10.2%; LST Total COA factoring in Scholarship: $70k.

    My goals: I grew up in Pennsylvania and would love to return to the Mid-Atlantic post law school. Working in PA, DC, DE, VA, and NC all appeal to me. I am not Biglaw or bust. However, I am not very interested in PI or Government work, and I do want to do firm work and earn a strong starting salary. I would be open to clerking at some point (why is W&M killing Gtown in the dept.?), but that is definitely not my main focus. I should note that I attended an Ivy league undergrad (I’ve heard this can slightly help with differentiation landing biglaw or other competitive firm jobs?). I also should mention that I have been out of undergrad for 3 years now and hope to be starting a family right after law school. For this reason, I am definitely debt averse and would love to maximize my career prospects without the crippling debt.

    Currently leaning towards taking the $ at W&M. I have visited all 3 and loved them all! I eliminated some other schools that I didn’t love or my Significant Other wouldn’t be comfortable with.

    Please let me know if I am crazy to take the money and run and pass on the prestige of the two higher ranked schools. Thanks so much!!!

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      May 8, 2019 at 9:12 pm

      Hi Victor,

      Thanks for the message! And thanks for being a student, I’m glad we could help you 🙂

      You have some great options here, so congratulations on your success! When you have three schools in play, we need to narrow that down first, and when you look at the data (that you so kindly included—thank you!) the first comparison I’d make is Michigan vs Georgetown. These are the two expensive schools, so let’s run them against each other (as above, as well as here: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/wm/michigan/gulc/). For me at least, Michigan is the clear winner on multiple fronts (employment/clerkships), and especially so when you include your COL. So, I’d drop Georgetown and that leaves your real decision here (in my eyes) as William & Mary vs Michigan.

      The difference in cost here is $235K, and the better employment results you listed above are what that gets you (as well as the prestige of attending the #9 schools vs the #39 school, which of course affects those job outcomes). For that extra debt, on a monthly basis over 10 years you’d be looking at $2435 per month. That’s a lot, and I’m personally not sure it justifies Michigan based on your stated goals. If you want to start a family after graduating, you are going to be locked into a job that has enough financial power to pay off that $235K, and those jobs are most often very long hours. Not a great combo for your life goals. William & Mary gives you full job flexibility since you’re basically debt-free on graduation, and that’s an incredibly powerful outcome from a school with a solid reputation.

      The counterargument—just for devil’s advocate sake—is that prestige is everything in the legal field, you’d be marrying an Ivy degree with a T10 law school degree, and in the Midwest the Michigan name would be extra-powerful. With decent grades you’d have some extremely attractive choices coming out of school.

      So, bottom line, do I think you are crazy? No, your decision makes complete sense here. Not an easy one for sure, but an undeniably justifiable one. Good luck in school, and enjoy W&M!

      Reply
      • Victor says

        May 8, 2019 at 9:45 pm

        Hi Dave,

        Can’t tell you how much I appreciate your fast response. You guys really do things the right way at Powerscore, and I am sure people are continuing to take notice. I don’t think any of these options would be there for me without your class/books/advice etc.

        Thank you again for putting so much time and thought into your response, it means the world to have my initial analysis and lean toward W&M validated by you!!

        Reply
        • Dave Killoran says

          May 8, 2019 at 9:49 pm

          Thanks Victor, I’m always glad to help! And I really appreciate you noticing that as well–it’s gratifying!!

          Reply
  36. V says

    May 1, 2019 at 7:00 pm

    Hi Dave,

    I was admitted to Cardozo yesterday and offered a $40,000 annual merit scholarship with no stipulations. This offer changes my law school plans because now I have to decide whether I should attend Brooklyn Law (full tuition scholarship as long as I remain in the top 80% of my graduating class) and Cardozo Law ($40,000 per year).

    The COA for Brooklyn would be approximately 90K for all three years and 150K (90K Cost of living expenses + 60K tuition) for Cardozo. I’m interested in exploring corporate, IP, and information law and want to find employment in NY after graduation.

    What are you thoughts on these options? This is an incredibly difficult decision, and I don’t want to take on more debt or worry about losing scholarship money if I fall below the top 80%. Also, I asked Cardozo for more money, but they currently cannot offer me more than $40,000.

    Regards,

    V.

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      May 7, 2019 at 5:13 pm

      Hi V,

      Thanks for the question! I’d suggest exploring the hiring statistics at these two schools. You can start with that at https://www.lstreports.com/compare/brooklyn/cardozo/. The schools aren’t terribly dissimilar, but at the same time Cardozo has the edge in almost every category. Is that worth 60K? If you get the right job, yes, it would easily be worth it.

      As for the merit scholarship, top 80% isn’t the worst standard to maintain. That said, every year people lose their scholarships because of similar rules, and it’s financially devastating. If you have these understandable concerns already, perhaps paying 60K more for better job results AND a no-loss scholarship guarantee is worth it for you? the last thing you need at finals time is the additional fear that if you do poorly you are out tens of thousands of dollars.

      Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

      Reply
  37. Ron says

    April 20, 2019 at 5:30 pm

    Hello Dave!

    This article is exactly what I was looking for! I am currently in a bit of a pickle and any help would be appreciated.

    I have narrowed my options down to three: Seton Hall (28% merit scholarship), Rutgers Law School (40% merit scholarship), and Pitt Law (77% merit scholarship).

    Seton Hall is ranked a bit higher than the other two options, however the overall cost (COL included) would be 100k higher than Pitt and 65k higher than Rutgers. Their job placement stats in NJ are very strong. While Pitt law has given me by far the best offer money-wise, my plan has always been to work in NJ (although I am somewhat flexible, due to the fact that my significant other currently resides in Pittsburgh). On top of this, establishing residency in PA after my first year would lower tuition costs to next to nothing. Rutgers, on the other hand, has offered me a sizable scholarship and is located in the legal market that I have always wanted to work. Again, any and all help with this decision would be greatly appreciated!

    Thank you,
    Ron

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      April 23, 2019 at 3:33 pm

      Hi Ron,

      Thanks for the question! I’m currently of town, but my flash analysis is that the extra rankings/location boost from Seton Hall isn’t enough to justify the extra $100K. When we talk about taking the “prestige” option, it’s usually jump much farther up the rankings chain (like form 70 up to 30, or 20). But to go from 77 to 59? that’s not enough of a jump to make it worth an extra 6 figures in debt. Or even $65K in debt, in my opinion.

      The above aside, the key is finding the school where you will perform the best. And it can be worth it to pay a bit more if you know you will be more comfortable. so while Pitt would be the choice I’d tilt towards here, your personal comfort might make a school like Rutgers more attractive. But it’s going to have to make it $65K more attractive, which is a big hurdle!

      Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

      Thanks!

      Reply
  38. Alex says

    April 19, 2019 at 4:12 am

    Hi,

    Thanks so much for all of your advice. I have to make a QUICK decision to accept or decline the Furman Public Policy Fellowship at NYU (full tuition, close mentorship). I’m deciding between that, Columbia w/Hamilton, Yale, and Stanford. I have a huge passion for climate change (my reason for applying to law school), and would love to work in the UN, policy, government, and perhaps get into politics in a decade or two. If climate change ever gets under control, I’d also consider being a judge.

    NYU’s program seems really strong, but I it is tough to make this decision. Money is definitely a factor for me – Yale/Stanford would be ~150K in loans, and NYU/Columbia would be ~30K in loans (total, over three years), to help cover living expenses. Would love to hear some perspective.

    Best,
    Alex

    P.S. – I used powerscore books while studying for the LSAT back in the day – you guys are the best!

    Reply
  39. Sarah says

    April 14, 2019 at 9:11 pm

    Hi Dave/anyone who would be willing to answer this question!

    Thank you so much for the great article. I am currently deciding between NYU (still waiting to find out if I will receive any aid) and UCLA (~$75k total merit scholarship). My assumption is that if I get any aid from NYU at all, it will be significantly less than UCLA’s offer, as although I am above the 75th percentile for GPA at NYU, I am below their 25th for LSAT scores.

    My ultimate goal is to work at a BigLaw firm in Northern California — I am from NorCal and am highly intent on returning to the area. It is my understanding that the top 1/3 of UCLA students and about 70% of NYU students land BigLaw jobs. However, only about 6.5% of NYU grads ended up in CA based on the latest data. Additionally, I am assuming that while both schools have high-caliber students, it would be much more difficult to graduate near the top of my class at NYU than at UCLA. That being said, is UCLA my safest option for CA BigLaw? I know that NYU would be my best choice for BigLaw in general, but I have no desire to stay on the east coast after graduating and am wondering how high I would have to rank in my class in order to get back to CA. Or do you think NYU would increase my chances at NorCal BigLaw over UCLA?

    I was also waitlisted at Stanford and Berkeley, so I have been debating retaking the LSAT and trying again for those two schools. However, doing this would be a gamble since there is no guarantee I’ll actually improve my score, and I may just end up putting myself in a worse position.

    What do you think the most risk-averse option is?

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      April 16, 2019 at 12:24 am

      Hi Sarah,

      Thanks for the question! This is a tough decision, so here are a few starter thoughts:

      “However, only about 6.5% of NYU grads ended up in CA based on the latest data.” — The one thing to realize here is that the typical NYU grad isn’t trying to get into the CA markets. So, what you are seeing there isn’t necessarily a weakness, and given an expected low number of NYU grads seeking those spots, probably represents a fairly high percentage for them. In other words, it could actually show they place exceptionally well in CA. After all, do you want another USC/UCLA/Berkeley grad in the office or someone with a degree from an elite East Coast school?

      “I am assuming that while both schools have high-caliber students, it would be much more difficult to graduate near the top of my class at NYU than at UCLA.” — I wouldn’t make this assumption. The quality level is quite close, and law school in general is rough. And quite a learning experience for many people. I’ve seen top-level minds really struggle. Also, sense of place and details specific to your situation at each school will have an impact, and you can’t gauge that beforehand. But UCLA students are certainly no slackers, and the difference isn’t going to be noticeable to the extent you can bank on it being easier.

      “That being said, is UCLA my safest option for CA BigLaw?” — There is no way to know this. UCLA is certainly well known here, but NYU is known everywhere. The best school is the one where you perform the best, and only you know which school makes you the most comfortable!

      “I have been debating retaking the LSAT and trying again for those two schools. However, doing this would be a gamble since there is no guarantee I’ll actually improve my score, and I may just end up putting myself in a worse position.” — You will not end up in a worse position; schools only care about the high score, and will ignore a lower score. If you can get a certain score, you ARE that score, regardless of what happens after 🙂 So, at worst you stay the same, at best you put yourself in a better spot. See: The June LSAT and the Law School Waitlist.

      I’m not sure that’s a huge help, but perhaps it does a little. Please let me know!

      Reply
  40. Lekh says

    April 14, 2019 at 9:39 am

    Hi, I am a International Student pursuing LLM from USA this Fall.
    I have admission offer from Loyola LA with specialization in Intellectual Property Law and UC Davis with General LLM Degree at the moment and am confused as to which one to accept. Both the schools have provided me with Partial Scholarships. Loyola giving 50% and UC Davis 25%.
    I have sent a mail to both requesting delay acceptance date and to increase scholarship respectively.
    I am waiting to hear from UCLA and USC Gould and Santa Clara.
    I plan on pursuing legal career in the field of Intellectual Property but am not from a STEM background. I have my Undergrad degree in Commerce field with specialization in Accounting and Finance.
    I also am in the last semester of LLB at the moment.
    Please help me with making a wise choice for the same. I am also expecting positive response from the other schools.
    I plan on appearing for NY , CA , DC bar exams and Patent Bar exam eventually and to get a good Legal Job ( not specifically a Big Law but a one who could sponsor my H1B )
    Which option would you suggest I go with ?

    Reply
    • Dave Killoran says

      April 16, 2019 at 12:34 am

      Hi Lekh,

      Thanks for the message! My specialty is not with LLM programs, so I’m not entirely comfortable here in providing extensive advice. In part because I don’t know the complete cost factors involved (which is on you to provide to us), as well as certain specializations each school has. However, in the Us legal markets name branding is a big factor, and you should look carefully at the placement numbers of each school.

      That said, it seems like you still have many decisions that you are waiting on (UCLA and USC Gould and Santa Clara), and those will change the calculus of your options and so trying to decide between just the first two schools at this point is a bit premature to me.

      When you do get more decisions, please let us know, and also let us know the entire scope of costs, etc so there’s a firmer foundation with which to make a decision. Thanks!

      Reply
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