Scholarship vs. Prestige: When to Take the Money and Run

Hi Todd,

I completely agree with Dave here (congrats to your son, btw – he has the most enviable of choices to make!)

Regarding NYU with full scholarship vs. Harvard, there are two main issues here:

1. How certain is your son that he wants to pursue an academic career? If he’s dead set on it, then Harvard and Yale probably do win, with or without money at other top-10 law schools. You need to realize, however, that such a decision is really difficult to make before even stepping foot in law school. What if he changes his mind and decides to do corporate law? Or get into politics with the hopes of becoming a judge? Or join the Justice Department? Or become a public defender? Or federal prosecutor? The list goes on… I’m not saying that Harvard will be ill-suited for such pursuits (quite on the contrary); however, NYU will arguably be just as good of a choice, one that will save him the equivalent of a downpayment on a mortgage. Furthermore, while there are indeed more HLS alums as Supreme Court clerks, professors, and SCOTUS justices, these statistics don’t confirm that HLS is vastly superior to NYU in preparing its students to join these elite ranks. You are looking at a self-selected sample: what if HLS students are merely more likely to compete for such positions in the first place? There is also an outcome bias here, judging a decision based on the outcome alone. If he’s a student at or near the top of his class at NYU, with stellar mentoring and no debt, there will be nothing – NOTHING – to stop him from pursuing whatever career he wants – even in academia or the judiciary. The first step will be securing a federal clerkship with a feeder judge, something a top NYU Law student is just as likely to secure as a HLS student.

2. Is cost a considerable factor here? If your son plans to borrow money to attend Harvard or Yale, even with their excellent loan forgiveness programs, the debt will be a burden that may shape the future decisions he makes. Having no debt will give him a lot more freedom than even the best loan forgiveness program in the world. Of course, if cost is not a factor – i.e. he or you will be paying for his education out of pocket – then by all means, let him go to Harvard! 🙂 The name has a nice ring to it, and it’s a wonderful place to spend 3 years. (I went there, I know :-). Needless to say, your son needs to visit both schools and get a feel for each.

One decision may be wiser than the other, but there is no “wrong” choice here. Let us know what you guys decide to do!

Hi! I am currently trying to decide between attending a top 50 law school with no scholarship or a lower ranked (but not by much) law school with a large scholarship amount. The top 50 school is UNC Chapel Hill and the top 100 school is Villanova. I am currently out of state for UNC but will be able to get in state residency by next year. I’m not totally sure what field of law I would like to practice but I am leaning towards Healthcare law. I haven’t had to take out any student loans for my undergraduate career and with the scholarship given to me by Villanova and the money I have in savings(I’ve worked 3 jobs at the same time throughout undergrad) if I attend there the loan I would need to take out would be minimal, but if I go to UNC I will have to take out a much heftier loan and risk exiting law school almost a quarter million in debt. I’m leaning towards Villanova because of its location to Philly and all the money I would save, but I also know that UNC has a great program.

Hi! Thank you so much for your response. I haven’t tried negotiating with UNC, I actually didn’t even know that was something I could do.I’m not waiting on any other schools, I’ve narrowed it down to these two. I have family and ties in both areas so I am okay with living in either region. I do know that my scholarship to Villanova is not conditional. I haven’t fully decided which field of law I would like to practice, but I think I am leaning towards either Healthcare law or a federal clerkship. How would one go about negotiating?

Hi, My son has two nice scholarship offers. One is from Indiana for 90,000. One is from Washingnton University in St. Louis for 70,000. We have visited both and he is wrestling hard over the decision. WashU is a career placement machine, starting from day one to find those prestigious internships, federal clerkships etc. They also have a huge national reach. Indian is a warmer program with a strong regional reach. Does the money in this case make much difference? What do you think is the best choice?

Beth

Wonderful!! This is exactly what I wanted to know. He paid his deposit and he will be in the 150th entering class of Washington University Law! I so appreciate your help!

~Many thanks!

Beth

Hi Team,

First off, thanks for publishing an up-to-date and thoughtful article on this topic. While it’s a blessing to be in the kind of position described here, it’s certainly stress inducing as well.

I’m currently weighing two different scholarship offers:
1. Unconditional full-tuition and fees to the University of Houston Law Center (UH)
2. $20k per year offer from the University of Texas Law School (UT)

I am a long-time Texas resident and likely will want to stay in Texas after graduation. I have an undergrad degree in Electrical Engineering and have been working as an engineer for several years. I think I am interested in intellectual property law, but am drawn to studying law partially because there are so many opportunities to study different topics. Overall not 100% sure what area I’d like to practice in long-term.

A few more things I am considering:
– UT is a top 15 law school nationally; UH is top 50.
– UT sends nearly 10x as many graduates to clerkships as any other school in Texas, including UH. I’m not sure I’ll want to pursue a clerkship, but it is certainly a nice option.
– Cost of living in Houston is significantly less than in Austin.
– Without taking any loans for cost of living (my wife’s salary will hopefully allow that), I would graduate UT Law with ~$45k in debt. That doesn’t seem like much relative to what many others end up with from law school, but feels like a ton relative to going for free at UH.
– For IP Law in particular, UH is typically ranked in the top 10

I’d be delighted to hear your thoughts on the situation!

Thanks in advance,
Cody

Hey Cody,

Thanks for the question! This is a tough one. I’m generally quite anti-debt, but there are times when it’s reasonable to take some debt on. This might be one of those times, so let’s look at some factors:

I’m a Houston fan. I think the law school is up-and-coming, and the overall school profile is growing nationally (the recent success of the football team cannot be discounted in that; anything that gets the school name in front of more people is a good thing).

2. Relatively speaking though, UT is simply the bigger, more recognized name, and it has national presence. Houston only has regional presence. That is, however, offset by your desire to stay in Texas after graduation.

3. When it comes to specific specialties, I don’t give those much weight. First, most employers don’t really think about them. employers hire on school name and class rank/grades, and not so much on which school are the best at environmental law. Second, as you readily admitted, your interests are far from certain, and can and likely will change once you get into school. So, using the IP ranking as a factor here doesn’t seem like a good idea. In the same way, the relative clerkship success at UT also doesn’t influence me, although it is in fact a reflection of the definably higher prestige associated with attending Texas. There no way of knowing if you’ll want to go the clerkship route, although one can say that going to Texas preserves that option whereas going to UH lessens it.

4. The free ride at UH is pretty attractive 🙂 I mean, zero debt more or less speaks for itself, and its why this is a debate at all. On the other hand, the Texas debt is at least manageable. If you can come out under $50K for a T15 law school education, that’s pretty solid. with your EE background, you’d probably be in better shape than the average grad, something that I also factor into the equation.

So, all that said, this is a classic “higher prestige with debt” vs “lower rank but free” argument. If it was me, I’d probably lean very slightly towards UT, but I don’t think there’s a wrong answer here, and that’s the good news: you either come out of this with a free law school education (which I find wildly attractive) or a top-level degree and low-level debt. All in all, you’re the real winner here 🙂

Please let me know if this helps. Thanks, and definitely keep me posted on what you decide!

Hello,
Do you regard Penn Law, Duke, or UVA law worth giving up a full ride and paying sticker price for national recognition and job prospect wise? Even if the full ride was at a top 50 school such as Florida State law or UF law?

I’d love to know your thoughts as they aren’t HYS, but still T14 schools?

Hi Rebecca,

This is a very tough question that no one can really answer for you 🙂 So many factors go into this that are personal that honestly you are the only person who can say how you value certain elements and what you want from a law school. I can tell you that a big part of this equation is where will you do the best? Your first year grades will have a huge impact and so you need to be as comfortable and happy as possible.

For me, I strongly tend towards debt avoidance, and so if you are going to pay sticker price vs a T50 full ride, then you should have some very good reasons for doing so. It’s very hard to beat a debt-free education, and even a big name doesn’t automatically pay the bills. So, weigh all the competing factors and your needs very carefully. Each person will arrive at a different answer, but you need to be as comfortable as possible with the decision you make.

Good luck!

Nikki,

How did you go about asking for more money at Fordham? Did u cite specific schools as leverage?

Nikki,

Which schools in particular if u dont mind me asking?

Hey Nikki,

Ok, so the latest situation is:

Fordham, which results in $195K debt after the $35K per year is applied

OR

Cardozo, which results in $90K debt total

In other words, about $100K more in total debt to attend Fordham. Oh boy, this is not easy at all! Law is often a rankings game, and Fordham comes in at #37 whereas Cardozo is #74. Knowing that you want Biglaw in NYC, obviously Fordham has the edge (and it’s a fairly big edge as Cardozo doesn’t produce many biglaw associates. See https://www.lstreports.com/schools/cardozo/ and https://www.lstreports.com/schools/fordham. Plus, here’s an anecdotal example supporting the same conclusion: http://abovethelaw.com/2016/09/the-best-and-worst-new-york-law-schools-f…). But, the debt worries me a lot, and I know it worries you too, especially given your age. I’m also concerned about how Biglaw firms will view you as a 33 year associate–you may encounter some hesitation on their part (I’ve heard of such in the past). Then again, your paralegal background can help offset that and would ease the concerns of a law firm, especially on the theory that you’d acclimate even faster and be more efficient. It literally is impossible to call here so I’m going to make a unusual suggestion that may or may not work. I think you should call the hiring office of a biglaw firm or two and see if you can’t find someone who will give you advice here. Explain your situation in a very brief, concise nutshell (don’t go more than 30 seconds) and ask if they have any thoughts. It’s a longshot, but if you could find one person who could almost serve as a “5-minute mentor,” it might set you at ease about your chances and your decision.

I personally fear the debt we are talking about here, because $195K is nothing to sneeze at. But, neither is $90K, so you already know you’re going down that path to some extent, it’s just a matter now of how far. Is the better ranking worth the extra $100k? It might be but only if you do well (and I can see that you know that by the comment you made about one bad final). It comes down to your commitment to Biglaw, because for that Fordham is the way to go. But I don’t think the extra money is really worth the extra boost because once you have that debt, you’re stuck with it.

So, I suppose I’d go with the lower debt, but I understand why this is difficult. That lower debt comes with lower opportunity. Either way, you will need top grades but you’ll have to be top 5-8% to pull a Biglaw job. That is a lot of pressure 🙁

I wish I could do more here, but there isn’t a “best” answer, just what is best for you. Thanks!

Yea Dave this is a hard one. My gf would o ot have to pay about $500 a year for parking and what not at St. John’s or like 70k in loans for Fordham… it’s deff a difficult decision. It’s funny you suggested calling a firm bc I know someone who gave the same advice… after looking at this article I am leaning St. John’s beacause of the cost and my belief that she can finish near the top. One of my best friends is an even L2 #2 in his class at St John’s. he will be an additional awesome resource… http://abovethelaw.com/2016/09/the-best-and-worst-new-york-law-schools-f… Yes Fordham has way more “Big Law” lawyers but their class size is much bigger… Take the money and run? After visiting Fordham and saint johns, I would say she is more comfortable at St. John’s. Fordham has this colder, we’re a good school, fend for urself approach… We shall see… Villanova has been nothing short of great and personable in the pre selection process so they’re making it difficult as well…

Hi Nikki, hope this isn’t too much of a dumb question…you mentioned Cardozo’s offer was a full ride and still 90K in debt (over the 3 years), What exactly does that 90K include? Housing, books, etc..I am just wondering why one would still have 30k a year in debt, without having to pay any tuition? I too will be applying to Cardozo, Fordham, and Villanova and leaning towards Villanova (free ride tuition scholarship) and because the cost of living in PA near villanova is much less then rents/cost of living in the NYC. Ideally my preference though would be to live and go to school in nyc, however the debt I would incur with only partial tuition scholarships, (although a free ride cardozo and unsure about $ fordham will offer) and the cost of living would put me way up there in debt than if i were to choose villanova and lived and worked in PA(philly area). Any insight would be much appreciated!! If it’s not too much trouble, advise me on the remaining debt for both cardozo and fordham (90k vs. approx. 300k)? Thank you! Josie

Hey guys,

I’ve been working on making a decision but don’t have much to go on career wise because i’m not sure where I want to end up after graduation. I’ve been looking into Cardozo as well but have only been offered $22,000 per year. However, Hofstra offered me a full ride and I was wondering if the full ride would be worth it from a much lesser ranked school?

Thanks so much.

Hi Dave,

Thanks so much for answering everyone’s questions. I’m currently grappling to decide between Fordham with $135,000 scholarship, and Penn, with no money. It seems that the two are in completely different ranks… It would be really hard for me to turn down a prestigious opportunity like attending Penn for a school without as much name or reach, like Fordham. At the same time, being in debt from attending Penn at sticker could affect the rest of my life. I likely want to work in New York City upon graduation, but I am not NYC or bust. I’d like to consider the option of working for government in DC. What do you think? Am I throwing out an amazing opportunity by attending Fordham instead of Penn? Is there even a discussion between the two schools? I would really love to go to Penn, though I feel that a big part of my interest is the prestige, and I’m not sure that’s a good enough reason.

Thanks!

Hey Dakota,

Well, what you have is the classic name vs money decision, which is probably the toughest one in the admissions world. Whereas in some cases I have a strong feeling about what to do, in this one I don’t. So, let’s break it down. First, what’s the exact financial outcome for each. I’ll use the LST Reports:

https://www.lstreports.com/schools/fordham/ — Non-discounted cost of $307K – $135K scholarship = $172K debt.

https://www.lstreports.com/schools/penn/ — Non-discounted cost of $320K – $0K scholarship = $320K debt.

So, a significant difference there. And one, that as you rightly note, could follow you around and affect the rest of your life.

Now, are the job prospect differences enough to make a difference. Again, back to LST:

Fordham: Employment score = 66.8% / Under Employment = 17.8%

Penn: Employment score = 89.8% / Under Employment = 4.9%

Again, a significant difference, and you can see that while you pay more, your job outcomes are better from Penn (and they better be, for that price!). By the way, pay close attention to the graduate outcomes box in the lower right. Penn has 66.3% grads going into large firms and 10.6% into Federal clerkship jobs (highly coveted). Fordham? 33.7% grads going into large firms and 1.7% into Federal clerkship jobs. In other words, Penn provides a 76% chance of large firm/clerk jobs, whereas Fordham is about 35%. they are, as you say, in very different classes.

At this point, it’s about what happens with the individual. Because although at Fordham you have less leeway for a bad exam or bad day, when you look at Penn there are still people struggling coming out of that school. Not everyone gets what they want, and there’s problem: if you could guarantee that you are in the positive outcome group, then Penn is a reasonable call, but you can’t guarantee that. And so it comes down to how you feel about all sorts of factors, including the environment at each school, how confident you are in your abilities, and so on.

I don’t know the best decision here for you, mainly because I don’t know you 🙂 I am generally debt-averse but I understand the pull of Penn here. Do you have any other admittances in the T14 or even T20 that gave you money that you could use to bargain with Penn? For example, maybe Duke gave you $20K a year? If so, use that as leverage and ask Penn for an improved aid package.

Sorry, there’s no “right” answer here but hopefully this gave you something to think about. Good luck!

Hi! I am currently debating between Washington University in St. Louis, Boston College and Notre Dame. To be honest, I’m leaning away from Notre Dame, but it isn’t completely off the market yet, either. Regarding scholarships, I received $35,000 per year at WashU, $26,000 per year at Boston College and $20,000 per year at Notre Dame. I know I want to practice big law after I graduate, but I am open to practicing in many cities. My biggest concern is job placement. I know Boston College sends about 25 percent of its graduates to big law, whereas WashU sends about 17 percent. I’m also concerned that WashU has less of a national reputation than Notre Dame and am worried that it will be difficult finding a job. Any opinion on what to do would be greatly appreciated!

Hi Dave,

Thank you so much for your response! That definitely helps. I actually just got back from Boston today and am fairly confident that I want to be at BC, but money is of course a huge hinderance in this. Unfortunately, admissions representatives were out of the office doing recruiting activities while I was there, so I was unable to speak to anybody in person. Instead, I drafted an email to BC and am planning on sending it tonight basically stating the above. Do scholarship negotiations usually work from your experience?

You definitely confirmed my current thoughts–ND is likely a no, BC is probable pending scholarship negotiations and WashU is backup should scholarship negotiations end not in my favor. Hearing your thoughts on this has been a huge help; it’s nice to know that I’m approaching this decision in the right way!

Thank you so much for your help. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your prompt feedback and input on this! I’ll keep you updated after scholarship negotiations. Crossing my fingers it works out!

Hi Dave,

I just wanted to follow up. BC got back to me and said that their initial offer ($26,000 per year) is their best offer. As a generally debt adverse person, what do you recommend at this stage? Go to BC, have more debt but have potentially better job prospects, or go to WashU, have less debt but also worse job prospects in big law? Thanks again for your help!

Hi Dave,

Thanks for your input. It’s a classic and difficult position indeed!

Unfortunately I don’t have money at other T14s… I was waitlisted at Duke + Berkeley, rejected at Cornell, and given nothing at Georgetown. I do have $30k (total) from UCLA and $105k from GW, but I don’t feel there is much in either of those in terms of negotiating with Penn . What do you think?

Thanks!
Dakota

Hi Mary,

Thanks for the reply! I’m glad that your visit to BC went well–Boston is obviously a great town (by the way, I hear great things about St. Louis as well–I’ve had a number of friends spend time there who actually loved it). If this is down to BC vs WashU, the debt is so similar as to be non-determinative. It’s really down to which school you like better and which one you think will help you to perform as well as possible. Your first grades will be key to your job prospects, and thus you need an environment where you will do as well as possible.

The alternative here is that if WashU was really an option, to go back to them and ask them to sweeten the offer to a number that you would fine irresistible (or, as they say in The Godfather, you want them to make you an offer that you can’t refuse :). However, I only recommend that approach if you know that there is such a number and that you would indeed attend–to me, honesty in negotiation is absolutely essential, and I would only open up a negotiation with WashU if there is a chance they could change your mind. And if they can, be clear about the number that it would take to do that.

As far as BC, it’s interesting to me that they stood firm. Sometimes schools will do that, other times not. It depends on a lot of different factors, including your numbers and how their own applicant pool is shaping up. Thus, from year to year things will change, and that makes it very tough to predict how a school will act. Did you just send a letter to them about the debt? I ask because maybe it would be in your best interest to call them up and talk to the person who sent you your reply. A real live conversation can sometimes get a school to change their offer–hearing a person is so much different than reading a letter and impersonally replying to it. Perhaps you call them up, thank them so much for taking the time to reply, and let them know if they could just sweeten it a little–say $4K a year or sometime rather minor–you’d sign on the dotted line right then, you might be able to turn them over on this. And if not, what’s the harm? You can still tell them you love the school and want to attend.

I get the sense you are leaning towards BC here, and given that the alternative is WashU, I think you are good there. The debt is very similar but BC has better prospects for what you seek.

Please let me know if this helps. Thanks!

Hi Lindsay,

Thanks for the question! Your situation is so open-ended right now that’s it’s really difficult to provide any insights until some of the options become clearer. You have three schools that haven’t weighed in yet, and so those could be options, and if one gives you a good financial package, the debate might end right there 🙂 Same thing with the Wait List schools–I don’t know what your personal priority list is, and it could be that one of those schools is you dream, and so if you get admitted you might just take it.

The starting point here should be for you to really work out where you want to go–the list of schools you applied to is quite wide-ranging, and I don’t get a sense from it what your interests or priorities are. so, you need to make sure you know where you really want to go, and why. The second step would be to break down the financials in the same way I did for Mary above. Third, isolate your career goals and compare them to the job placement info for each school. Narrow the field so you can see what really matters to you.

As for the Oregon schools (and as a full disclaimer, my sister-in-law lives in Portland, I love Oregon in general, and on top of that I personally am a huge Ducks fan), it depends on whether you want to live and practice in Oregon after graduation. an Oregon degree will play well in the Pacific Northwest, but if you are going to DC or Philly or NYC, it drops off the table as far as recognition. So, the answer there depends very much on you and your goals. Thus, to provide any helpful info, I’d need a lot more info form you, and it also may be that we need to wait for more schools to give you firm answers and WL updates.

Please let me know what you think. Thanks!

Hey Dakota,

Yes, you are exactly right–#15 UCLA and #30 GW won’t open the door to negotiating with #7 Penn. UCLA is obviously the closest, but the $30K total isn’t enough to make Penn feel like it’s competitive and something they’d need to match. So, you are probably in a position where what’s on the table is what you have to work with :/ I wish I could say something more insightful but basically comes down to how you feel here about the debt and the job prospects. This is now prestige vs lower debt, and there are going to be people who feel strongly on both sides of that debate. Sometimes I would say “what does your gut say here?” but instead I’m going to say: “After weighing all the factors, which seems like the safer path?”

Hi Dov,

Thanks for the question! As a quick reference for you, earlier in this thread we had a Cardozo vs Fordham discussion, and you can find that here: http://blog.powerscore.com/lsat/scholarship-vs.-prestige-when-to-take-th…. The discussion and analysis there was a bit different since both choices resulted in some debt ($90K vs $195K, with that $90K being enough that it affected my recommendation, actually), but the basic idea–Fordham with more debt vs Cardozo with significantly less, is similar.

In that situation, there were certain stated employment goals that made Fordham more attractive than usual (since both resulted in a lot of debt, the extra debt was less troublesome), so in reading that please keep that in mind. In your case, I’m inclined to agree with you–if it’s going to be basically free to go to Cardozo, that’s incredibly attractive. Law school debt is non-dischargeable, so you are stuck with it no matter what. Thus, I always tend towards debt-free outcomes whenever possible.

Job outcomes here are obviously critical, and you should carefully peruse the LST Reports: See https://www.lstreports.com/schools/cardozo/jobs and https://www.lstreports.com/schools/fordham/jobs. Fordham has the edge, BUT is it worth going about $218K into debt for? I have a *very* hard to believing it is worth that.

At the end you ask about negotiating with Fordham, and that’s a smart move that I fully support. I’m currently working on a short article about negotiating with law schools, but I don’t think it will be about for about two weeks. The bottom line is that you should try it here because there’s clearly a chance you’d go to Fordham if they offered you more money (and you should have that figure in mind when you write them–don’t be swayed because they offered you a little bit more; know beforehand exactly what number you think they need to reach to make it persuasive). I usually recommend negotiating by using offers from similar or more highly-ranked schools, but you don’t quite have that option here. So, be direct with them. Explain that Cardozo (and St. Johns, to make your case even stronger) has given you a full ride and that you find that attractive. Tell them that you prefer Fordham (assuming that’s the case), and ask not only for them to increase their offer but name a figure if you can. I’d think there’s a high chance they just sit tight here–while Cardozo is in the same area, Fordham is solidly higher in the USNews rankings than Cardozo (#36 vs #65, although neither school is in the top 50 according to the Above the Law rankings). Often when a school feels that the other school isn’t in their bracket they just ignore them and won’t negotiate. So that might happen here, but so what? Better to try it and see rather than wonder about it later. You unfortunately don’t have much leverage here (if Cornell had accepted you it would have been a card you could have played) so give it your best shot and see what happens.

Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

Hey Dov,

No, the rankings reflect general assessments of a law school, and thus they tend to come into play for any job situation. For example, if Yale grad comes up against a Pepperdine grad, if all else is equal then the Yale grad will have an advantage. That’s just basic human nature I think, and more a reflection of that than the legal field itself.

The Biglaw placements reflect not just the rankings but geographic location as well. But the same is true for clerkships and any highly desirable position. What it really comes down to is that law is a rather hierarchical field, and because of that the prestige of a school tends to be important. Are there exceptions? Certainly, and there are plenty of successful attorneys who didn’t go to a T14 school.

Thanks!

Hey Dakota,

Congrats on that news–that is awesome! My first reaction was one with a small bit of concern, but once I heard that you’d be stopping by in person to make this pitch, those concerns went away. Doing it in person allows you to control and massage the message and convey it in a super-friendly, non-threatening way. As long as you do that, I’m all for it.

One tip: I’d probably keep your request relatively small and try to be specific. A pitch along the lines of, “If you could increase the offer $4500 a year, it would position me to finalize my acceptance right now” is much easier for an admissions officer to process and approve than, “I am hoping to get a better aid package–what more can you do for me to put me in a position to enroll?”

Good luck and please write back and let me know how it goes! I’d love to hear what you said adn how they responded. And, congrats once again 🙂

I will keep you updated! I will be nervous doing it in person, but yet I’m confident that I can deliver the message as you proposed, in a non-threatening, and friendly way. I can’t thank you enough for your responsiveness and advice – it has been extremely helpful. Thank you!

Hi Dave,

I am struggling between three schools in particular-GW, William and Mary, and Uni of Maryland (the state I live). I have a big scholarship from W&M and a small one from Uni of MD, but nothing from GW. I want to practice family law in DC and MD. I am debt averse especially because I know I may not be making a lot of money practicing family law, but I also want to attend a school where I will be happy with my decision in the end. What are your thoughts? Thank you.

Hey Dave,

For the most part I have narrowed down my school list to three choices with statistics shown below (I say for the most part because I am waiting to here from UC Davis, which enough if awarded money I would highly consider).

However, I have a deadline of April 7th to make a decision for Loyola in Chicago, which I am also highly considering. The three schools I am really considering are as follows with the reports for pricing with scholarships, employment scores, and rankings. By far Washington & Lee is the best school and they still offered as much (or more) in financial aid. They have the best job placement by far, especially in DC a region I would highly consider working in. The theme between all the schools I applied to is a Public Interest/Human Rights/Social Justice Program. Of these three Northeastern has by far the best program with my specific interest and I loved the school when I toured. Loyola is still a good program and I received the Civitas Child Law Fellowship (8 student cohort per class, with additional funding toward externships). Although Northeastern’s program I believe is overall better, I have already been pre-selected in a sense to be considered for many things at Loyola and I fear giving up such a fellowship would be a mistake. I have read your blog extensively and I am planning to ask Loyola to match the offer from Wash Lee and maybe that of Northeastern.

Another large concern is place of living. I was interested in moving to a city (never lived in one) and Wash Lee is certainly not in a city. But I did undergrad at Virginia Tech and thrived as a student in that similar VA environment. I feel it isn’t what I want, but should I let geographic location make me forego the best school I’ve received a great package from?

Is Wash Lee too good of a deal at a great school to pass up on? Is a highly competitive fellowship with connections and resources in my field of interest to good of a deal to pass up on?

Loyola:
Non-Discounted Price: $233.5K – $123K = $127K
Employment Score: 51% Underemployment: 30%
US News: 72 ATL: NA

Northeastern:
Non-Discounted Price: $240.5K – $139.5K = $101K
Employment Score: 62% Underemployment: 24%
US News: 82 ATL: NA

Washington & Lee:
Non-Discounted Price: $233.5K – $127.5K = $106K
Employment Score: 74.5% Underemployment: 13%
US News: 40 ATL: 25

I would appreciate your thoughts,
Thanks Roy!

Thanks, Dave. I actually wrote it wrong: It’s $35K/year at UVa, or $105K. Does that change your calculation? I would think not, but I’m interested to know if when the differential goes from $15K to $45K you would still go to UVA rather than WUSTL. Frankly, I’m having a hard time ignoring Columbia even at full freight. Is there ever a good reason to go for the highest ranked school just ’cause? Or if we’re not talking HYS, then they’re all about in the same boat? And, really, is WUSTL in the same boat? How about Cornell? Why is it ranked so low?

Hi Brit,

Thanks for the reply! The first thing that jumps out at me is that if you are living at home for GW, then you won’t be paying $308K. I would carefully consider those costs and how much you’d save, because every dollar you don’t save is a dollar of debt you must pay off eventually.

However, given the size of your scholarship at William & Mary, even living at home won’t bring GW down to that cost level. William & Mary is a great school, and you can see the USNews rankings support that and ATL actually puts it the highest ranked school (which means dollar for dollar they see it as the best of the 3). Given my own stated aversion to debt and your job preferences, debt management will be important and the costs here aren’t even close: W&M is $85K less than the next school (which is ranked lower!). So, I see nothing here that would sway me from William & Mary. At $109K it’s the best deal just on the numbers (that said, you have to determine if it’s the best deal or not for you and your personal preferences).

Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

Hi Dave,

Thanks for your feedback on this topic!

I am solidly focused on public interest and have so far gotten into Fordham ($135K), Cornell ($105K), Georgetown (waiting to hear), and Penn (waiting to hear).

One thing that is making this decision difficult is the LRAP — on a visit to one of the schools, the director of financial aid told me not to bank on the LRAP being as good when I graduate as it is now. I suppose it has to do with the potential revocation of federal funding. That said, what does “not as good” mean? Is there a chance I may be left without any repayment help at all? I could maybe justify going to a school at sticker if I knew for certain that I would be able to make use of an LRAP.

Another factor in assessing my options is getting a handle on public interest employment statistics from the different schools, since employment seems so heavily geared toward biglaw.

Any insights you have would be greatly appreciated!

Sincerely,
Anna

Hi Anna,

Thanks for the question! Unfortunately, in this case I don’t know the specifics of what the Director meant 🙁 I haven’t seen any reports to the effect that LRAP will be changed or eliminated, and so it could be a reference to *feared* changes in a lot of areas due to the current political administration. I seriously doubt you’d be left without any help at all though, and I don’t think the Director was trying to imply that (“not as good” is far different than “none”).

As far as employment stats, I use LST Report (https://www.lstreports.com/schools/) and the ABA Standard 509 Disclosures (http://www.abarequireddisclosures.org/). Those both have a wealth of info!

Please check those out and please let em know if they helps. Thanks!

I would also greatly appreciate your input to my above question, Nikki.

Thanks!

Hi Claire,

Thanks for the reminder 🙂 I actually planned to add an answer today, so I hadn’t missed it. If you don’t see me reply to something for 5 or more days, then I’ve missed it. I almost always respond to things on the same day, but right now we are experiencing an extraordinarily high volume of questions above the LSAT and law school admissions, and it is slowly pushing me back.

Nikki isn’t handling blog duties for us currently, so he will not be able to add in a response. Sorry about that!

Hey Mike,

Thanks so much for adding in this update! Just so everyone can see the rankings–which do matter since they reflect general perceptions–I’m going to add those in here:

U Miami Tuition non-discounted (150k) – 75k scholarship = 75k debt
employment/unemployment scores 60.4/19.9
USNews: #77 ATL: Unranked

Florida tuition non-discounted (67k) – 9k scholarship = 58k debt
employment/unemployment scores 76.2/16.2
USNews: #41 ATL: 30

Cardozo tuition non-discounted (168k) – 114k scholarship = 54k debt
employment/unemployment scores 67.7/16.9
USNews: #65 ATL: Unranked

St. Johns tuition non-discounted (165k) – 141k scholarship = 24k debt
employment/unemployment scores 69.8/15.3
USNews: #72 ATL: Unranked

Hofstra tuition non discounted 55k – full ride = no debt
employment/unemployment scores 65.8/22.6
USNews: #118 ATL: Unranked

In your earlier comment, you also said: “I’m from Long Island and want to get into NYC big law.. at least that’s my plan for now. I also went to undergrad in florida so have interested in heading down south…Being in Florida would be awesome but I wouldn’t want to ruin my chances at a good NYC job.”

Ok, all of that together allows us to start making some evaluations. As usual, my disclaimer is that this assumes all else is equal, and that each school is a school you want to attend and would be a good place for you. Only you know the true answers there, so rely on your own judgment 🙂

I grouped the two Florida schools together due to market proximity. In the case of Florida and Miami, that lower tuition makes Florida cheaper, and then you can see that their rankings are stronger. Importantly to me, Florida made the ATL Top 50 list, and I like their reliance on costs and job outcomes. So, between Florida and Miami, I’d choose Florida. I like Miami’s big city location–and better proximity to the small, tough, but growing Miami biglaw market–but it’s hard to beat better reputation and less debt.

With the New York area schools, it would probably be St. Johns for me. I love Hofstra’s no debt outcome, but St. John’s is only $24K in total debt, and they are much more highly regarded overall (which is reflected in the rankings). I generally like Cardozo, and I know their big firm placement is slightly better than St. John’s, but overall job stats are a shade worse and it’s also $30K more than St. John’s.

So, that reduces the field to Florida and St. Johns for me. Now you get into real decision problems based on where you want to practice and debt levels. Florida has the better reputation and ranking, but costs $34K more, and it’s miles away from that NYC market and so doesn’t do quite as well with big firm placement. I’d probably go Florida but it’s a coin toss. In NYC maybe the uniqueness of being a Florida grad gets you some passing interest vs being a grad of a local school they see tons of people from. I don’t like the higher cost but I do like the higher ATL ranking. Tough call.

Please let me know what you think of that breakdown. Thanks!

Hey Dave,

Thanks for the feedback. I totally agree that it comes down to Florida and St. John’s. I definitely feel the 8k/yr is worth it over a Hofstra full ride. When it comes to UF, it’s a tough call just because of the NYC opportunities. The school itself and ranking is attractive. I’ll let you know what I decide! Thanks again!

Agree 100%, it’s tough to turn down the ranking but if NYC is your target then it gets harder. I’m usually for taking the school with higher prestige when most everything else is close, but how that Florida degree plays in the northeast is not something I’m entirely certain about.

According to LSTReports on the location of Florida grads (https://www.lstreports.com/schools/florida/jobs/location/), New York received 1.9% of 2015 Florida grads, which was tied for 2nd on the UF placement list (which, not surprisingly, was dominated by the state of Florida = 88.8%, then Georgia = 1.9% and NY = 1.9%). Problem is, 1.9% equals just 5 students, and so the sample is quite small. Thus, those relatively low numbers may have more to do with Florida grads wanting to stay in sunny Florida than with a lack of opportunities presented to grads of the school, but there’s no way for us to tell just from the numbers of grads there; we’d need to know how many tried to find employment in NY to have a better picture.

Anyway, best of luck and please let me know what you decide. Thanks!

Hey Mike,

Congrats on the full ride! They would probably nose out St. Johns for me in the northeast, but it’s very close and I can see St. Johns being someone else’s choice. For me, I see Penn State as having an advantage since it’s free, and then also I know they’ve been working on those law schools, and have a stated commitment to making them better. When you can put state university system money behind a school, that can make a difference and hence I suspect in years to come their ranking will be even higher. Big drawback is employment right now.

Hi Dave,

Thank you for all of the helpful information on this topic!

I was offered a full-ride by The University of Minnesota Law School. However, I was also accepted at the University of Chicago Law School. The University of Chicago has offered me a scholarship of $10,000.00 per year, I have requested a scholarship review in hopes of having more assistance.

I am from the Twin Cities Area and up until I attended the Admitted Students Weekend at UChicago I was very confident that I would attend the U of M. However, after visiting UChicago I can’t help but feel I would be missing out on a huge opportunity if I decide not to attend.

As of now, I am interested in pursing a career in public interest, particularly in the field of education law/educational policy. One reason UChicago stands out is the location in Chicago, I would like to pursue an internship at the U.S. Department of Education, Office of Civil Rights, which has a field office in Chicago. Additionally, UChicago offers a generous summer funding program for public interest positions and a great LRAP.

However, I know that I could change my mind after starting school and learning about different opportunities. I feel that UChicago offers the most flexibility and opportunity for being unsure about career choice as it is a nationally known school.

All that being said graduating with $250K in debt is a bit hard to contemplate. I know that the U of M is also a great school and the opportunity to graduate almost debt free is very attractive. But almost everyone I have spoken to has expressed that I should go to UChicago, that the price is worth it in terms of opportunities as a student and future career choices.

I would appreciate any general thoughts/opinions you may have on my situation! Thanks so much!

Hi Amy,

Thanks for the message! It’s funny how the Fordham vs Cardozo decision has come up quite a bit in the comments here but you can see why since it’s a tough one. If you compare the two schools, the overall employment numbers are similar (see https://www.lstreports.com/schools/cardozo/ and https://www.lstreports.com/schools/fordham/), but inside those numbers is where the difference appears. As you noted, Fordham places better in large firms and clerkships whereas Cardozo send more grads to smaller firms (which are often perceived as less desirable) and public service. As for whether you are interested in biglaw, I think you made the correct point that doesn’t matter because you want options, and “better” law schools tend to generate better job choices.

When we start talking about schools, it’s easy for the money to get abstracted. that is, $120K doesn’t feel like anything significant because it’s just numbers on paper right now. So, the best thing I can think of for you is to look at the monthly costs and fees associated with that debt level, and for there make the determination if the extra opportunities at biglaw/clerkships is worth it. Imperfect but at least it gives you a definite sense of the money involved. Try these two:

Michigan Law Debt Wiz Calculator: https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/debtwizard/Pages/Debt-Wizard-Calc…

Washington Post Student Loan Debt Calculator: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/business/student-loan-debt-…

I know it’s conflicting but perhaps that will tip you one way or the other. Good luck!!

Hi Sarah,

Thanks for the question! The first steps here are to run the full debt and job analysis you’ve seen me run with other schools in these comments, using LST Reports: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/. That will show you the exact costs associated with each school, and I tend to prefer the sum total of what is needed to attend a school as opposed to broad cost of living assignments (COL) because just saying COL takes away the reality of the dollars that must be paid back.

Next, look at the jobs situation. This is where I think you get the second number that affects the decision-making process: employment (the first key number is straight costs/debt). NYLS has a number that has always concerned me, which is their employment score, which is under 50%. Miami isn’t fantastic, but it is better at 60.4%. I have real problems with schools under 50% because even though you are just paying COL, it’s still in the six figures in NYC, and you are going to need a job afterwards. The line is very narrow at NYLS, and basically your grades need to just be awesome. there’s no safety net there at all (to be fair, that’s true at every school, but it’s even moreso the case at NYLS if that makes sense). So, when I look at this, it’s hard for me to avoid saying that despite the higher cost, Miami is the better call. You of course have to weigh all the options and see how they affect your life, but on the face of it I lean towards Miami.

By the way, the comment you made about environment is an important one to me. How you feel about where you are at is very important, and that comfort can make securing top grades easier (not easy, just easier :). The question to ask is: where do you envision yourself, and where do you see yourself performing well?

Please let me know if the above helps. Thanks!

Hey Chase,

Thanks for the message! First off, congrats on the amazing choice you have here. Both schools are fantastic, and to get money at Harvard is great but to also have no tuition at Penn is fabulous. There aren’t enough adjectives to describe how nice your position is here.

There are two parts where I think I can provide assistance: the debt/job question and the geographic reach of Penn. Let’s start by referring to something you said, namely that: “The more I read about BigLaw, the more scared I get. I don’t want to spend the first ten years of my professional life, stuck in an 80 hr/week job, with no time to settle down and start a family. This is really important to me, and I’d take a much lower starting salary (than the 180K) in a smaller firm if it meant less hours/cutthroat/anxiety.” That comment jumped off the page at me because you are quite clear there that being bogged down by a lot of debt and having to take a BigLaw job that grinds the life out of you is NOT something you are at all interested in. It’s also really great that you already know that and can articulate it at this point in the process. Many students don’t realize that they feel this way until they are actually in one of those jobs, and ordering Chinese food at 11 PM while working in the office on a Saturday night. So, while $60K is still a significant amount of debt, with the employment prospects of Penn it is certainly manageable. And, actually, $189K is also manageable when you have Harvard on your resume. So either choice here would work out, but obviously when you are so clear about debt-avoidance (or really, BigLaw associate avoidance), that tends to tilt the decision towards Penn in my mind. I believe you also feel that way, and it’s why you raised the concern over Penn’s geographic influence.

So let’s talk about Penn’s national reputation. Penn is a perennial T14 school (ranked #7 this year, as you surely know), and they are generally a well-known school nationally and internationally. Are they quite as well-recognized as Harvard or Stanford? No, they aren’t on that level. Those schools live in a special strata that includes the most famous universities in the world (like Oxford and Cambridge in England). Penn is one cut below those schools from a reputation standpoint. But still that is quite excellent. To analogize, it’s like saying that a player isn’t Michael Jordan. Ok, so the player isn’t the best in history but that doesn’t mean the player isn’t good. Maybe they are Charles Barkley or Kareem or Magic–still great in their own right. One way to see that is to examine the job placement of Penn grads (via LST Reports at https://www.lstreports.com/schools/penn/jobs/), where you can see that federal clerkships go to 10.6% of the class. Clerkships are prestigious and highly desirable, and 10% is an extraordinarily high figure (compare it to #15 Georgetown, for example, which sends 3.5% of its students to federal clerkship positions (which is actually a great number compared to most other schools, but is nowhere near the class of Penn). Second, where do Penn grads go to practice? Are they locally constrained and forced to stay in the area? No, they aren’t. Only 12.5% practice in Pennsylvania (compare that to a school like Minnesota that has 55% of its grads practicing in MN). Per LST, Penn’s geographic placement is as follows:

NY: 48.8%
PA: 12.5%
DC: 9.6%
Texas: 5.8%

So, Texas is the fourth state on the placement list, and probably the figure could be higher if more Penn grads applied for Texas jobs. In other words, the school will play well in Texas, and you shouldn’t have any problems having a degree from there when seeking employment in TX.

Bottom line is that if you want to avoid debt then you can safely choose Penn and feel good about it: it’s a great school with a strong national reputation, and because of that the grads do well in both quality of position as well as location. It’s a top 10 school, and given the lowered debt you’d leave with, it’s an incredibly attractive offer. If you instead choose Harvard, well, you’ve got Harvard on your resume and after that all you need to do is punch out some solid 1L grades and you’ll be set.

Last, if you still can’t decide, put deposits down at both schools and buy yourself some time. It’s a totally practice, adn this decision is big enough that if you need more time, then it’s worth paying for. See http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/multiple_deposits/ for more info if needed.

Please let me know if that helps, and please let me know what you decide to do!

Hey Dave,

Thanks for all your advice on here. If you were in my shoes, would you take a full ride at Northwestern or accept near-sticker at UChicago or Columbia? I have deep roots in Chicago, and want to practice BL in C, NY, or DC. Thanks!

Hello!

I have been struggling with a very tough decision for a few days now, so I’m SO glad I stumbled across this blog!!

So, first of all, some background: I live in Little Rock, AR, and my original intent to go to law school was to practice law in this area (kind of interested in getting involved in local politics; my ultimate goal is to eventually become a judge — but not exactly sure what kind of law I want to practice when I get out). I got accepted to the local law school here in downtown Little Rock, William H. Bowen School of Law, with almost a full-ride scholarship. I’m not even sure what they’re ranked, but it’s not in the top 100 — the benefit here is that I *think* this is where I want to practice, and I could get out of school with only maybe $10,000 or so in debt.

However, I was also placed on the priority wait list at Emory (#22), and I went to visit the campus this past weekend. When speaking with the dean of admissions, he made it sound like I had a pretty good chance of getting in (they said they only didn’t admit one or two people from the priority wait list in recent years). If I do get the call that I’m admitted (which could be at any time), I will only have 48 hours to make my decision (!!!). Hence my anxiety about this.

From visiting Emory law school and speaking to students/faculty, it is clear that this is a FAR superior law school than what I would have if I stayed at home, but I would most definitely come out of school with AT LEAST $100,000 in debt (if you combine the cost of tuition + the cost of moving and the cost of living in a new city), even with a decent scholarship (they typically don’t award more than half the cost of tuition, which is around $50K per year). The appeal here for me, I think, is that even though I am pretty sure I want to end up back in AR, I feel like I wouldn’t be limited to that if I got my education at a school that is recognized on the national level.

The question I’m wrestling with is whether or not paying that much more for that superior education would be worth it? Do you think it would have the potential to open up more doors even here in Little Rock if I did return? Or is taking the money and going to school locally going to actually wind up establishing better connections for myself in the future?

ALSO…not to complicate things further, but I also applied to Vanderbilt and am still waiting to hear back from them. Going to school there has always kind of been my dream, and it is a little bit closer to home (only about 4 hours instead of 8.5) — so if I got in there, even without a scholarship, I feel like that might be even harder to pass up. But I’m still faced with the same question: would it be worth it? And more importantly: am I completely stupid for passing on that kind of opportunity if I do decide to stay here in Little Rock?

Thanks in advance!!

Hi Melissa,

Thanks for the message! First off, while this may be a difficult choice, the nice thing is that you have two excellent options to select from, and so I don’t think you can make a bad decision here 🙂

If we break down the numbers (excluding cost of living for now), then what you have told me so far reduces to the following:

Vanderbilt: $54K a year – $27K scholarship = $27K/year = $81K over three years

Michigan: $58K a year – $20K scholarship = $38K/year = $114K over three years

So, as you clearly saw, those apparently small differences added up to a final $33K difference in tuition costs! Now, if we stop right there it looks like Vanderbilt has a significant edge. But Michigan is in Ann Arbor, a relatively small town, and Vanderbilt is in Nashville, a larger city (and an awesome one too, in case you’ve never been there). That makes a difference since the Cost of Living (COL) in Ann Arbor is generally less than Nashville. According to LST, it’s the following (includes books and living expenses):

Nashville, TN Cost of Living: $24,910/yr = $74,730 total

Ann Arbor, MI Cost of Living: $19,010/yr = $57,030 total

That difference favors Ann Arbor by about $17.7K, and makes the final debt totals closer:

Vanderbilt: Tuition $81K + COL $74,730 = $155,730

Michigan: Tuition $114K + COL $57,030 = $171,030

Thus, when COL is added in, the gap narrows to $15,300. That’s still significant, but much closer than before.

Ok, now that we have a firm grasp of the numbers, the first consideration is for you to go look at some debt calculators (which you may have done, but I’ll repeat the advice here for the benefit of others). Check out:

Michigan Law Debt Wiz Calculator: https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/debtwizard/Pages/Debt-Wizard-Calc… (which is extremely convenient since Michigan is one of the choices here)

Washington Post Student Loan Debt Calculator: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/business/student-loan-debt-…

Next, let’s look at the job outcomes at both schools to see if the extra $15.3K might be justifiable:

*Vanderbilt*
US News Ranking: 17
ATL Ranking: 14

Employment Score: 78.9%
Under-employment Score: 13.5%

Large Firm: 37.3%
Small Firm: 4.3%
Federal Clerkship: 9.7%
Public Service: 11.9%

*Michigan*
US News Ranking: 8
ATL Ranking: 13

Employment Score: 85.0%
Under-employment Score: 10.5%

Large Firm: 50.8%
Small Firm: 1.4%
Federal Clerkship: 10.2%
Public Service: 12.7%

So, are those numbers enough to justify a slightly higher price tag? I think so. Overall employment results are better, especially at the more desirable large firm and clerkship jobs. Toss in some smaller but useful considerations (such as bar passage: Vandy 85.7% vs Michigan 93.7%) and I feel like there is a reasonable argument for thinking that Michigan is worth the extra $15.3K. That said, something you mentioned in your initial message also makes me feel that the extra money is warranted, mainly your comment that, “I’d love to attend Michigan.” So, that’s the school you want to go to, and since the costs are so close and the job outcomes are a bit better, I see no reason for you not to go ahead with it. If it is indeed the environment where you will be happiest, then that has an economic value since happy students typically perform better overall than unhappy or less happy students.

So, to make a long story short, I think you have all the evidence and justification you need to support your desire to go to Michigan 🙂

Please let me know what you decide to do–I’d love to know. Thanks!

Hi Christine,

Thanks for the message. Wow, having to make a major life-changing decision in only 48 hours is a tough spot to be in! So, knowing that you could be faced with that prospect, you need to do everything within your power right *now* to put all of the relevant information and decision-making tools at your finger tips. That way, when the time comes, you can move quickly and confidently to make the best decision for you. With that in mind, let’s talk about it.

First, you need to assemble all of the financial information that you can, and be as detailed as possible. Start researching now what it would cost to live in Atlanta or Nashville (prepare for all outcomes, not just the most likely ones). Consider things like flights from those cities back home, or the cost of gas if you were to drive. Do that for each year and then multiply it out by three, for each year of law school. Get detailed! If you don’t have some of the info, ask. Put together a spreadsheet for each school and fill in every possible item. that way, instead of thinking that your debt would be at least 100K at Emory, you will be able to state the exact figure.

Second, use some financial calculation tools to get a sense of what different debt levels look like. Here are two that you can start with, but there are others:

Michigan Law Debt Wiz Calculator: https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/debtwizard/Pages/Debt-Wizard-Calc…

Washington Post Student Loan Debt Calculator: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/business/student-loan-debt-…

Put in different numbers to get a sense of monthly payments, how long it would take to pay off certain debt numbers, etc. This is an important step because it makes the debt real. It’s really easy in these conversations to toss number out like $53K or $181K and have them not feel real. A monthly debt service payment makes it feel a lot more real 🙂

Ok, you should both of those things as soon as you can. Next, let’s place the schools in perspective by comparing them to each other. In that process I’ll use rankings from US News and Above the Law, and as much as I think rankings systems have natural flaws, they are useful because they reflect how other people perceive the schools.

*Emory*
USNews Rank: 22
ATL Rank: 38

*Vanderbilt*
USNews Rank: 17
ATL Rank: 14

*Arkansas-Little Rock*
USNews Rank: 134
ATL Rank: Unranked (not in top 50)

So, as you’ve noted, there’s a big difference in perceptions between Emory and Vandy vs UALR. You also sensed that when visiting Emory, since you said that “this is a FAR superior law school than what I would have if I stayed at home.”

Next, as we will see, that rankings/perception difference has a significant impact on job prospects (all numbers drawn from LST Reports at https://www.lstreports.com/schools/):

*Emory*
USNews Rank: 22
ATL Rank: 38

Employment Score: 75.0%
Under-employment score: 15.9%

Large Firm: 26%
Small Firm: 15.3%
Federal Clerkship: 3.9%
Public Service: 17.5%

*Vanderbilt*
USNews Rank: 17
ATL Rank: 14

Employment Score: 78.9%
Under-employment score: 13.5%

Large Firm : 37.3%
Small Firm: 4.3%
Federal Clerkship: 9.7%
Public Service: 11.9%

*Arkansas-Little Rock*
USNews Rank: 134
ATL Rank: Unranked (not in top 50)

Employment Score: 44.4%
Under-employment score: 23.8%

Large Firm: 0.8%
Small Firm: 22.2%
Federal Clerkship: 0.8%
Public Service: 23%

I’m going to be honest: the Bowen numbers aren’t good. Not just a bit worse than Vandy or Emory, but a lot worse, and plain bad on their own without being compared to a T25 school. The one thing that gives me some pause is that their bar passage rate is 76.3%, which isn’t bad especially since the Arkansas bar is rumored to be somewhat harder than average.

So then, one of your main questions was whether the extra debt is worth it. We don’t have the exact debt numbers so we can’t judge that yet, but from the above employment figures there is certainly a very reasonable chance that extra debt would indeed be worth it.

The second main question you had involved your area of practice vs where you went to school. The general rule is that at a certain level, big names open doors no matter where you are. The Harvards of the world allow you to go to any city and be competitive. When we talk about Vanderbilt and Emory, we move down a step and one would say that both schools have more of a regional presence than a national presence. Of the two, Vanderbilt is closer to having a full-scale national presence than is Emory; Emory is decidedly more a southern region school than a national reputation school, but it is still well-known in legal circles. As a comparison, although the data was limited, only 22.2% of Vandy students stayed in Tennessee and 12.2% of students went to New York:

• TN: 22.1%
• NY: 12.2%
• TX: 8.1%

At Emory, 56.7% stayed in Georgia (much greater percent indicating stronger local ties as well as a stronger Atlanta legal market), and for New York it was also good, at 10.1%:

• GA: 56.7%
• NY: 10.1%
• FL: 6.7%

The numbers show the top 3 practice states for the grads of each school. The larger point is that both Emory and Vanderbilt are Top 25 schools with excellent reputations, and each has a strong enough reputation to allow their grads to go to the big legal arenas like NYC and compete for jobs. When you moved back to Little Rock, the reputation of each school will help you, and in many ways it might be worth it to have a degree from one of those schools as opposed to just being another UALR grad (as a reference, here are the Bowen numbers: AR: 71.2%; TX: 6.7%; MO: 2.9%. In other words, 4 out of 5 Bowen grads stay in the area, and thus they flood the market each year. One question here is do you want to be one of those many grads looking for a job or would you prefer to be coming in from out of town with a brighter, shinier degree? Who do you think looks more attractive to prospective employers?). Bottom line is that the fact that you hope to be in Little Rock is not a reason for you to automatically select Bowen. All else being equal, I’d personally take a degree from either Emory or Vandy vs Bowen as I think I’d prefer to stand out. And, of course, a Bowen degree basically limits you to Little Rock; a degree from Emory or Vanderbilt gives you many more options if something doesn’t open up for you in LR.

The last thing I’ll suggest is for you to read all of the comments in this blog. In each case, the student has described the choice they are making, and then I reply and discuss the relevant factors. I want you to read each situation because it will help you see the types of choices and considerations other students faced, and it will also allow you to see the way I prioritized each factor. For example, I tend to be very debt-averse, but I’ll let better job prospects outweigh debt in certain cases. But, if the schools are fairly similar, then I’ll almost always go for the money (example, full ride at Northwestern vs full tuition at Chicago; I take Northwestern since it’s a top school and you graduate with no debt). In your case, the schools in play are very different, especially in the employment results. While I can’t see your final debt numbers, I can take a guess at them and I have a strong suspicion that if I were in your shoes I’d be leaning towards Emory/Vanderbilt.

Ok, that’s a long post but it’s important for you to run the numbers here and think about this choice very carefully, and to do so as quickly as possible. Please let me know what you think, and good luck!

Hi Taylor,

Thanks for the question! This is a challenging decision, and I tend to think that no matter what you decide you’ll have some uncertainties over whether it was the right decision, and that is because there are positives on both sides here.

While reading what you wrote, there were two things that jumped out at me, and the first was your statement that “I am shooting for a federal clerkship and then biglaw for a few years in either NY or DC.” If that was the only consideration, then obviously UVA would be the better choice as shown by large firm/clerkships percentages: UVA = 54.5%/15.8% vs BYU = 7.5%/2.3%. That’s 70% vs 10%, or a 7 times better chance at the path you seek at UVA. Basically, the two schools are on different planets as far as job placement, which is to be expected when one of them is a T10 school. I realize that BYU has a strong alumni network (and one that tends to have stronger personal relationships than many others), but it can’t compete with the sheer power of the UVA name.

So, based on the above it would seem that I am advocating for UVA. But then the second consideration comes in, which your friends nicely summed up by saying, “unless one gets into HYS, they should go to BYU.” This is a saying you hear with some frequency, and the reason it is so popular is that there’s a degree of truth to it. The HYS schools are like the superpowers of the law school universe, and offer a name that opens doors no matter where you go. UVA, while outstanding, is a cut below those schools (maybe two cuts if you look at the CCN trio as its own level). You are rightly concerned about going into $231K of debt, and I personally have a hard time justifying taking that on. That is especially the case since BYU is generally considered one of the best deals in the law school world — a well-regarded school at a relatively reasonable price.

So, that probably didn’t help much 🙂 I think that given your background and comfort with Provo and the BYU school environment, I’d probably say avoid the massive debt and go with BYU. It’s a very good school and the price is very nice. But I understand the siren call of a top-ranked school like UVA, and in one sense you are directly lowering your chances of obtaining the career path you seek if you choose BYU. Interestingly enough, in this case we can quantify that trade, as those improved job outcomes cost exactly $143,000 more. Is that too much to bear? I can’t say, but I would urge you to use something like the Michigan Law Debt Wiz Calculator: https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/debtwizard/Pages/Debt-Wizard-Calc… to get a sense of how that extra $143K affects monthly payments.

Just as an aside, a decision like this has elements of game theory behind it, but one way to look at this is that UVA offers a wider array of outcomes, including both good and bad results. The potential job outcomes are seemingly better on the top end, but if things didn’t go well the debt load could result in some very negative results. BYU, on the other hand, could be characterized as resulting in a narrower set of outcomes, with few potential bad outcomes but also fewer topline results. You could consider this the choice of locking in a more reliable set of middle-range outcomes (and again, this is generalizing; you could go to BYU and have a result that is the best possible one for you) vs a more risk-taking approach that increases the possibilities at both ends. If it helps, you should consider what type of person and risk-taker you are—does one of those two characterizations immediately feel more comfortable to you?

Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

Can I get you that 10% agent’s fee when I get a job in 3 years? 🙂

Really though, one 15 minute conversation and an email equated to $7k. I’d say that’s the highest “pay rate” I’ve ever made 🙂

(ok, ok, I didn’t get paid so much as I got discounted, but still! $7k in 15 minutes, is fine. by. me.!)

Hi Christine,

Thanks for letting me know this helped you! That’s why I do this and enjoy it so much.

I’m really glad to hear you are going through all the expenses and looking carefully at each option. When the time comes, that will give you confidence to make the best choice for yourself.

Please let me know how things play out–I’m really interested to see where you finally end up. Thanks and good luck!

Hey Alex,

Interesting set of choices! Would you mind breaking down each school’s ranking/finances/employment numbers in the manner I’ve done above? That’s where we start with every discussion simply so the numbers are as clear as possible to you. Here are the links we use to obtain the info:

https://www.lstreports.com/schools

https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings

http://abovethelaw.com/careers/2016-law-school-rankings/

And here’s an example of how it looks for one sample school:

Florida
Tuition non-discounted (67k) – 9k scholarship = 58k debt
employment/unemployment scores 76.2/16.2
USNews: #41 ATL: 30

I’ll sometimes go deeper if there are specific practice states or job types in play, and since you mentioned biglaw, if you could, add in the job type percentages from LST Reports (such as Large Firm, Small Firm, Fed Clerkship percentage, etc) as so:

Large Firm 11.2%
Small Firm 27.4%
Federal Clerkship 2.6%
Public Service 16.2%

Once you have that info posted, I have a feeling we’ll start to see some of the choices rise to the top and others fall–such as the full ride at Case will knock out UConn pretty easily 🙂 I keep a close eye on this blog, so when I see you post back, I’ll come back in as quickly as I can and provide some further thoughts on the school choices.

Ok, while we wait for that, let’s talk transferring. Here’s my basic rule for transferring: There’s no guarantees when it comes to transferring, so don’t attend a school unless you’d be happy graduating from the school. That said, the reason there are no guarantees is because your ability to transfer will rest on your first year grades and the quality of the school you are transferring from. The grades are huge, and that can be a challenge because the typical 1L law school grade is derived solely from the final. So, nail the final and doors start to open up. But if you have one bad day or exam, then it’s over. And law school is so unusual that even if you’ve been a great student your whole life there is no guarantee that that will continue in law school.

Now, let’s say you go out and do quite well, and your class rank is high. From there, it depend son how high your rank is as well as the school you attend. In general, the rule is that the better the school, the more room you have with your grades. For example, if you were trying to transfer to #10 Duke, if you were coming from #23 Minnesota you could transfer over with slightly lower grades than if you were coming from #51 Baylor. In other words, the lower ranked your starting school is, the higher your grades need to be. And, past evidence shows that at a certain point, the top schools stop taking students. For example, Harvard just doesn’t take transfer students from the bottom tier of law schools. However, when you slide down the rankings scale, it loosens up. So, when you talk about transferring up, we have to consider not just grades but that starting school as well (that said, Case would allow you to transfer into the T14, maybe even higher if you absolutely killed it on the grades).

Last note, if you transferred out of Case, you lose the scholarship at that point. You probably know that, but it’s worth mentioning here for others.

Thanks and I look forward to hearing back from you!

Hi Dave,

Thanks for your advice. I have a little more information now as I am still deciding and GW added a small scholarship. I am just between GW and W&M now. How accurate are the cost from the lstreports site? I ask because I did my own calculations using the estimate cost from both schools and here is what I got:

GW: School est. COA= $85,900/yr
My est. COA= 70,500/yr -8,000 (scholly) – 7,000 (grant)= $55,500/yr
My breakdown:
1,500 books and supplies
3,000 personal expenses
6,000 room + board (living at home and maybe helping out a little)
2,000 transportation
58,000 tuition

Est debt. $167,000. I have not factored in working during the summer and possibly breaks.

W&M: School est. COA= $60,700/yr
My est. COA= 60,500/yr – 25,000 (scholly) = $35,500/yr
My breakdown:
1,500 books and supplies
5,000 personal expenses and transportation (traveling home some weekends or moving)
12,000 room + board (through summer)
42,000 tuition

Est debt. $106,500.

I would like to attend GW and I think I could figure out a way to make that work. I guess my question is would it be worth it to choose GW over W&M?

Thanks for your input Dave.

Hi Brooke,

That’s great that they came up with some money–it just goes to show that you should ALWAYS try to negotiate with a school if you have even one other good offer. And, of course, congratulations on attending Columbia! It is obviously an amazing school and you can’t go wrong with a degree from there. I’m so pleased that things worked out for you 🙂

Thanks for letting me know which way you went, and again, congrats to you!!

Hey Dave,

Just an update on my situation… FSU got back to me and I’m accepted with a 13.5k scholarship/yr which would make it 20,000 debt over 3 yrs.. besides this.. still considering St. Johns and UF… thoughts?…thanks

Florida tuition non-discounted (67k) – 9k scholarship = 58k debt
employment/unemployment scores 76.2/16.2
USNews: #41 ATL: 30

St. Johns tuition non-discounted (165k) – 141k scholarship = 24k debt
employment/unemployment scores 69.8/15.3
USNews: #72 ATL: Unranked

Florida State tuition non discounted (61.5k) – 40.5k scholarship = 21k debt
employment/unemployment score 71.4/8.3
USNews Ranking #48 ATL: 37

Just an fyi to everyone who has asked a question here–I have some current schedule conflicts and so I won’t be able to reply for several days. But I will reply to everyone 🙂

Hi Drew,

Thanks for the question! Well, this is more or less the quintessential question behind the blog title here: should you go for the free ride at a lower-ranked school or go into debt for the prestige of a highly ranked name? The answer for each person is different, and as I’ve spoken with all the students in this comments section I’ve found that each person has slightly different ways that they value and analyze the elements in play. Nobody likes debt, and if you’ve read the other discussions you’ve seen me repeatedly recommend that applicants considering going into debt should look at the repayment schedules and truly understand what $150K-$250K of debt looks like on a monthly basis. It can be significant and overwhelming, but you have to face the reality of the financial consequence of choosing that path. For some students the answer is that it’s too risky but for many others it’s not. I know that going to the debt-free school represents a safer pathway in a financial sense, because we can see a black and white difference in the monetary obligations that those individuals bear upon graduation. But it also often represents a demonstrably lower chance of securing the so called elite jobs in big firms and clerking for judges. This is where your goals and aspirations really do play a major role. For example, do you want to be a law professor? Then your chances increase more as the rank increases at the school you attend. In your case, I don’t get the biglaw/clerkship pathway as being something you have your heart set on. Will Michigan give you a better shot at any job compared to Wayne? Yeah, to be honest it will, and that goes even for those in-state jobs. Plus, so many of those Michigan grads leave the state because they can; the name gives them the clout to do so (and it also pulls in many more people form out of state than Wayne, which is also why they leave upon graduation).

I think your decision needs to be driven by your comfort with these schools. Which one do you think will make you happier? Both will be competitive–just because Wayne is ranked lower doesn’t mean that there won’t be pressure in class to perform or on the exams to ace them–but if you feel Wayne is more to your liking, then you get a free education at a school you like. I don’t know you well enough to really contribute to this decision (I wish I did–it would be easier, right? 🙂 This decision has to be driven by deep introspection on your part about what you want out of law school and what you are willing to pay for the experience. Ask yourself how you feel about those monthly payments, and how you would feel about passing up the big name school. Talk to the people who know you best and ask their opinion. they can’t decide for you, but maybe they’ll help you best understand your personal values and how those relate to the costs involved here.

Please let me knwo if that helps, and good luck–I’d love to know what you ultimately decide!

Hi Hilary,

I’m very debt averse, so I don’t think either Wake or Emory would be able to compete with the full ride. I kind of get the feeling you feel the same way, and a free education is just really hard to ignore. Usually it takes a very big name to overcome that debt burden, and we don’t have that here.

I’m glad the books helped–thanks for letting me know!

I would also like to add I don’t have any big lofty goals after graduation,I do not want to be a law professor, or go into big law or clerkships, I would just like to work at a private firm working with family law as I studied family, youth and community sciences for undergrad. I have possibly thought about wanting to become a judge or having a goal to reach for after practicing for a little while.

Also as I mentioned my husband that leaves the possibility of moving to Texas, Louisiana, or other big engineering states but also the possibility of just staying in FL if a good enough job presents itself to him, so state does not matter. Although I am born and raised in FL and my family is located in Tampa, so I do enjoy staying here.

Thanks Dave! that is very helpful, this is personal not facts but its hard to go against what my parents believe is right after they have supported you your whole life, but I am financing this so it is my own decision.

My other questions is since I am from Florida and there is a large possibility this is where I would end up also, do you believe in going where you think you will practice, especially since FL bar is so difficult? Or do you think this is not as big of a deal?

Hi Tim,

I like GW a lot, and I like DC even more, especially as a city to learn law in. So, I think it is a great combination and you should enjoy yourself there!

I wouldn’t worry about the rankings movement. This is natural, and if you study what happens, at times schools have fallen and then risen, as well as the reverse. A school like GW knows how important the rankings are, and it won’t be lost on them that they need to get back up there, and they’ll put in the resources to make that happen. So I expect to see movement the other way soon enough.

It also won’t affect employers at this point. Yes, if they keep falling it will be and issue, but right now the movement is too small to be an issue.

Congrats on the acceptance, and go have a great time!

Hi Dave,
You have offered some great advice on this site and was hoping you could opine on my daughter’s situation. She graduated in 2016 with very good grades and decided late in the year to try to apply to law school. Her original intention was to use the year as a practice run and then apply seriously for admission for the fall of 2018. Well, with very little study she did well on the LSAT (lower 160’s) and applied to 8 schools to see how it would go. It turns out that she got full ride offers to 6 (Ohio State, American, ASU, U of Arizona, Wake Forest & Case), ½ to George Washington and a decline from Duke.

It has come down to Ohio State vs waiting another year and trying to improve her LSAT score to get into a T14. She’s torn between practicing in DC and Ohio, but looks at the prestige a T14 can offer and potential opportunities it affords. She also is very conscious of the enormity of debt that may coming with getting into a T14 without significant scholarship. She originally was interested in GW but because Ohio State and GW are ranked the same thought the Ohio State offer was better.

So looking for your thoughts on likelihood of improving her LSAT score to get into a T14, and starting a career in DC if she attends Ohio State. The Ohio State offer seems too good to pass, but she also doesn’t want to settle if there is greater potential at a T14. Also waiting another years seems to be putting off the inevitable. Thank you!

Hi DFennis,

I’ve just returned form a lengthy trip, and I couldn’t quite get to your question today, but I will post an answer tomorrow. I will say that this is all going to come down to her waiting an extra year vs her career aspirations. the Duke rejection more or less sums up where she stands right now: she’s set with OSU (great school, btw) but her numbers aren’t good enough for the T14. Could she increase her LSAT score with an extra year? Sounds like it. Is it worth it? That I’m not sure about–it’s a long time, but we do know that a higher LSAT score will not only increase her acceptances but bring more money as well. So the balance becomes an extra year (and I don’t take that lightly) vs where she wants to go and what kind of school she needs for that. I’ll talk more about it tomorrow.

Thanks!

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. Definitely would like to hear your thoughts on waiting a year. She concerned about opportunities offered at Ohio State. I’ve told her to reconsider George Washington if that is a concern, but would be interested in your opinion on Ohio State. Waiting a year just doesn’t make sense to me.

Thanks again!

Hi Dennis,

Thanks for the reply! The first place I’m going to refer you to is the LST Report on OSU: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/osu/. This gives a very nice thumbnail sketch on how the school performs when it comes to job placement, salaries, and bar passage. You should also compare that to GW: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/gw/.

The comparison between those two would suggest to me that the full ride at OSU is generally the better choice. First, it’s free, whereas at GW she’d be walking out with a six figure debt load. Second, in comparison to GW, OSU also performs well in employment, which is really important to me when evaluating offers. The downside is that OSU places a LOT of grads into Ohio (80%), so her options for practice would most likely be in-state unless she is at the very top of her class (which is not easy at all to guarantee). GW places about half of their grads in DC and about 10% in NYC, so there is a bit broader feel to the options when you attend GW. However, you mentioned that she’s torn between DC and Ohio as practice locations, so for her it may be that this isn’t a big issue. To me, this is a critical point, and question she *really* needs to ask herself is: where do I want to practice and what type of job do I want? If Ohio is great, then take the money at OSU and don’t look back! If she’s a “bit” interested in DC or “kinda” would like to have the option, then again I’d say go with OSU. However, if she’s adamant that she wants a big-city practice or for sure wants biglaw, that’s when other options aside from OSU come into play.

If the latter is the case (and I suspect it isn’t based on your initial comments), then she has either a half scholarship at GW or the option of a year off for a try at a higher LSAT score. The decision factors involved get very personal here, and aren’t of the type that I can easily evaluate. Given her performance with minimal prep, I suspect she can raise her LSAT score further, which as I’ve mentioned earlier would open doors at more highly-ranked schools as well as increase her financial aid packages. The cost is the extra year off, which is a huge cost! However, that cost is weighed against the debt load from GW, and through that prism I don’t think the cost looks so bad. Let’s say she could raise her score into the upper 160s. At that point, her aid package at a place like GW might well be increased a full ride, meaning she’d save something like $150K overall. In that light, taking a year off actually would make some sense. If she could do even better, then perhaps she’d be looking at great aid packages at even better schools, meaning even more would be saved (or gained, it depends on how you look at it).

Thus, in my opinion, her situation reduces to two primary questions:

1. This is the question I posed above, namely, “where does she want to practice and what type of job does she want?” Depending on her answer, then she’d either accept the OSU offer, or alternately consider my second question.

2. This question only gets asked if the answer the first question shows that Ohio isn’t where she wants to end up, and her opinion on that is *very* strong. The question is: “How much better could she do on the LSAT if she had another year to prepare for the exam?” If the answer is, “I don’t think I can improve much,” then take the OSU offer and don’t worry about this option. But if the answer is that she believes with good reason that she could do 5-6 points better (or more), then she should consider retaking the exam, and then re-applying, especially to schools in the T14 and schools with good rankings in larger cities (such as GW or Georgetown).

I think this is an interesting situation, and although I’m generally anti-taking a year off, you can see how in her case it might actually make some sense. But for that to be the case, she has to be fully committed to what she wants because that course of action requires considerable time and effort. It could very well be worth it both economically and job-wise, but it’s not a path for the faint of heart.

Please let me know what she says–I’m really interested in hearing what she think about the options. Thanks!

Thank you very much for the advice! I’ll have to make a decision soon 🙂

Hey Dave,

I ended up e-mailing Gtown and received 1/3 off tuition! Do you think UT’s current ranking is really that significant when Gtown’s has historically been higher? I feel like those rankings are always changing, so I can’t tell how reliable they are each year. Just hoping Gtown’s doesn’t continue in the wrong direction, while UT’s continues to go up!

Dave,

Great additional comments about her choice. Well after a week of mulling things over, she has decided to take the offer at Ohio State. She’s not completely sure she wants to end up in DC to practice but, in order to keep her options open there, she plans to continue to cultivate relationships that she made during undergraduate school and in the past year in working there.
Ohio State also offers a summer program in DC which she will look into. I think a lot of her decision came down to a sure thing at Ohio State vs an uncertain path and delaying that path for another year.

Thanks again!

I’m currently debating on Chicago Kent College of Law or the University of Illinois College of Law, Kent has offered me a full tuition scholarship and U of I has given me a 60% scholarship. Not sure if I want to do big law. But U of I is ranked 31 and Kent is around 70. Not sure which one to pick. I know U of I has better job placement numbers, but its hard to pass on a free legal education. Assuming I want to practice in Chicago, which one seems like the better option?

Dave,

Thanks for the response!

Kent= 0 debt
LST employment/unemployment scores 55/10.7. However the underemployment is 22.7%.
Ranking US News: #92 ATL: not in to 50

UIUC= 39k – 21k = 18k per year= 54k debt after 3 years.
LST employment/unemployment 78.3/8.4. Underemployment 10.8.
Ranking US news: #44 ATL #31

Hey Corey, thanks for the reply! I always like everyone to do those breakdowns so they can see the facts (and everyone else can too). In this case, it’s a tough call. Yes, Kent has worse employment numbers, but it’s free. Illinois is a school I really like, but it it’s going to cost you $54K. So it’s $54K debt vs worse job prospects. which one do you fear most? That is the essence of the decision being made here. I’d personally probably take Illinois, and use the bigger name and better job prospects to erase what is a smallish debt, but that is not the “best” decision here. What’s best is the choice you make, and I can tell you that debt avoidance is usually a very high priority for me. Difficult decision either way!

Hi Jess,

Thanks for the question! This is really tough for me. On a relative scale, $42K isn’t bad, and since I love ATL’s ratings, that #31 is appealing. but your parents also have a point: leaving with just $8K is akin to a free education. That’s pretty hard to pass up!

The one question I want to ask you is: do you see yourself at GMU? Because your happiness will be critically important to how well you perform in law school, and how well you perform is going to be critical to the jobs you can obtain. If you like GMU and see yourself there, I see no reason to not go there. But if you can’t or prefer GW, then you need to consider that carefully.

Please let me know what you think. Thanks!

Hi Jess, you are correct about GMU placing at a lower rate in those jobs (here are the numbers for anyone else reading, per https://www.lstreports.com/national/) compared to GW:

GW: Fed Clerkship = 3.8%
Big firm = 23.4%

GMU: Fed Clerkship = 1.5%
Big firm = 9%

This is exactly where the tradeoff here becomes apparent: certain job prospects are sacrificed in order to obtain the lower fees. There’s one school of thought that says that saving $34K is small potatoes compared to the possible income loss by not having these options, but that is true only if those jobs interest you AND you can obtain one. The other school of thought says that nothing is guaranteed, but that debt is real and non-dischargeable, and thus to be avoided at all costs.

The best advice I can offer here is to take some time to research big firm jobs and clerkships, the type of work required, and the options they create in your working life. If the option is something you conclude is necessary for your future, then you’ll make one decision. If you determine that when is all is said and done that those options aren’t that important, then you’ll make a different decision. But right now is the time to look very carefully because the decision you make has real consequences regardless of which direction you take.

I hope that helps, and good luck!

Hi Katherine!

My take on the part-time program is that GW is actually trying hard here to create a pathway for you, not just ignoring your app or rejecting you. So I wouldn’t worry too much about the program they put you in at first since they are trying to use it as a way to get you into the regular full-time program at the school. This is what schools do when they like a candidate but the applicant doesn’t meet some part of their normal criteria.

From here, then, I’m going to request that you do the numbers comparison I do above for both schools. Here’s the GW one:

GW: Non discounted Cost = 308K
GW: Employment score = 64% / Under Employment = 21.1%
GW Rankings: USnews #30; ATL: #33

The reason I want you to do American is that I want you to see the exact differences in black and white as far as numbers. I explain why a few times above so I won’t repeat it again.

Once we have that, let’s look at your decision more closely. Thanks!

Hi Katie,

I only have a moment to respond unfortunately, but to me this is a fairly clear case. Given the close amounts per year, I’d look at the two more highly ranked schools, meaning Maryland and AU. Then when you toss in that commute for AU, I think that Maryland looks very strong. Not to put my own value judgment on this, but 2 hours commute each day and you only save 4K a year, and it’s for a lower ranked school? That doesn’t seem to add up to me at all.

Also, no matter how well Baltimore is regarded locally, always think big picture, especially when costs are so close.

Last note, you can never assume what will happen with class rank or grades; it’s just too variable to even think about that as a factor. Things at a different school could align even better, or something at Baltimore might cause issues.

So, given all the factors, if it was me, I’d take Maryland and not look back for even a second 🙂

I hope that helps. Thanks and please let me knwo what YOU decide, because that’s what important here!

Hi Pearl,

This is an extremely difficult question for me to answer, and really I don’t feel comfortable making a recommendation when the only things I know are that you received a 166 and live in NY. It’s just not enough to weigh in on what is an extremely important life decision for you!

I will say this however: if Fordham offered you a $30K scholarship, then they obviously liked what they saw. In cases such as that, more highly-ranked schools will often at least come to the table with an offer of admission. How much they offer in scholarships is another matter, but certainly what you have so far suggests that as far as rankings, you could probably gain acceptances from more highly-ranked schools. At that point, it becomes the classic argument over money vs rankings, and with no real information about your application strengths and weaknesses, it’s impossible to say what the outcome would be there.

Again, I don’t normally suggest our services as matter of avoiding bias, but if I were you I’d contact our Admissions Consulting Department and schedule about two hours with Tony Bates, and then have him do an overview of your app and give his opinion. He worked as a dean in the admissions offices of NYU, Michigan, and Washington, as well as attended Michigan Law, and he’d be able to definitively say whether your chances at T14 schools were realistic. Yes, I realize that’s not a cheap solution, but the decision you are talking about here has potentially millions of dollars in repercussions, and I can’t make a judgment from where I’m sitting.

Thanks and good luck!

Hi Nicolle,

Thank you for your response, it was very insightful. My situation is slightly different from yours. I graduated 2 years ago with 3.98 gpa. Since graduation i have managed to work my way up from a supervisor to a senior manager at a non-profit. I received a few emails from law schools such as Michigan and Washington University inviting me to apply. I understand that it does not guarantee me admission, however, I believe that its an indicator that I may be able to get into the above mentioned schools. I do agree that a 166 is an akward score.

Hi MW,

This is kind of the golden question, as to whether a full ride at a T25 or so school is a better choice than full boat at the #4 ranked school. As you may have noticed, there’s not an answer that is the same for every person. It depends on your job goals, your debt tolerance, your geographical preferences, and even your belief in yourself. For example, if you wanted to be a law professor and absolutely have your heart set on it, that changes the parameters of your decision. Now, you mentioned biglaw, which happens to be notoriously name-sensitive. Here’s the comparison:

Chicago: Large Firm = 61.4%
Berkeley: Large Firm = 49.7%
(and Chicago does about 5% on clerkships too, which are key: 16% vs 11%)

Is that worth the approximately $68K more you pay at Chicago? For me personally it probably would be since once you’re at that debt level I’d go for the best possible outcome; for you, though, I don’t know. I don’t know how debt averse you are, I don’t know which school you might thrive at, and I don’t know so many factors here that would truly make this decision.

So, I recommend very strongly that you run all the analyses I’ve talked about in my responses above, from a debt analysis to a jobs analysis. Even looks at rankings, such as ATL’s (http://abovethelaw.com/law-school-rankings/top-law-schools/), which puts Chicago #2 and Berkeley #12. Ask yourself which gives you the best pathway for you, and how set you are on those goals.

Good luck!

Hello Dave,
Thank for your fast reply.
I have utilized the sites you reference regularly (Law School Transparency and ATL) for some insight, but still no clear answer.

Which choice between UChicago and Berkeley would be better for academia?
How much of a difference is there in rankings translated into the real world, even if the two extremes of ranking (#2 v. @12 are assumed)? (will law firms care; will future academic hiring care)
Would it matter that one has Law Review at the #12 and no law review at the #2? (would law journal participation matter at all if the journal is not the flagship journal for a school)

Thank you for what you do.
MW

Hello,
my questions are currently hypothetical, and won’t become concrete until I begin receiving acceptance letters and scholarships. But here’s my question: Would I be better off going to Columbia most likely at full cost, or UT most likely debt free (or close to it.) I am a Texas resident and want to practice patent law in Houston. Eventually I want to open up a firm with my brother. But in addition to that, I have a big interest in doing a federal clerkship and in putting myself on the right track of becoming a judge one day. I know that judgeship isn’t something I can plan for really, or even expect, but I do think a clerkship would go a long way to help make that happen.

Also, UT is set, but the case of Columbia might also be for any of the other top 7 or so schools, excluding HYS, as they are most likely just out of reach.

Hey David,

This blog post has been really helpful in my decision making process thus far. I have currently been accepted to most of the schools I applied to for the Fall 2018 semester. But now comes the hard part of picking the best one. I have looked at some of the school’s LST reports like you mentioned in previous comments and I wanted to see what you thought. I am currently looking at Akron who offered me 60% off tuition. Akron’s tuition is already very cheap at roughly $24,000 a year, making my total tuition cost for all three years about $30,000. Their LST report is what is holding me back though. Their employment rate in full-time legal jobs is at about 44.4%. If that number was a bit higher I wouldn’t have as many reservations. I am also considering University of Louisville, which is ranked a lot higher and has a better employment score of 60.7%. They offered me $15,000 off $40,000 tuition a year, making my tuition for all three years at about $75,000. A couple of other schools I applied to have the same tuition and offered me about the same amount. I just feel like Akron’s deal is too nice to pass up. Even though it’s not a full ride I would still come out with not little debt compared to what it could be. Debt scares me but not being employed scares me too. If you were in my shoes what would you do? Thanks.

Dave,

I’ve got an update on my cycle.
Scholarship offers: UVA 120,000, Michigan 135,000, UT 24,000
COA: Mich – 105k
UVA – 125k
UT – 145k

For working in Texas, is UT really that much better than other T10’s? These scholarships are making me second guess myself

Hi,

I am in a complicated situation. I have applied to, and been accepted to all 3 law schools in my home state of Minnesota – University of Minnesota, Mitchell Hamline and University of St. Thomas. MH & UST are both regional schools, where University of Minnesota is in the top 50. I was offered full tuition scholarships at both MH & UST, and 18k from University of Minnesota.

Knowing that I want to practice in Minnesota, ideally Intellectual Property law and eventually break into the Federal circuit – does it make sense to take the money and run?

I am fairly well connected, and would bust my butt to be in the top 5 at a regional school. Or should I gamble, and get debt?

I am also concerned about the learning environments, and the amount of connection and camaraderie at the University of Minnesota vs. a smaller regional school.

Please let me know what you think!

Hi Dave,
So…I got into Tulane Law School, ranked (51), and they offered me a $25,000/year scholarship.
Their tuition and fees cost about $56,000
My debt would be about $100k coming out of law school if I attend.
I also got into a much lower ranked school Loyola New Orleans (142, i think?), and they offered me a $36,000 scholarship that would cover 82% of my tuition and fees.
My debt would be $24k coming out of law school if I were to attend the lower ranked school.
I’m not exactly sure what type of law I want to practice as of now, but I do know that I do not want to stay in Louisiana.
What do I do?

It is nice to see that I am not the only having to make tough decisions about law school. I have a question regarding what you all believe would be the best course of action. I am also from Minnesota.

1. I was accepted to Maryland Law (Top 50) with no scholarship so I would be paying sticker out of state for the first year, and in state for years 2 and 3 because my parents reside in Maryland.

2. I received 60% from St. Thomas, so huge discount, however St. Thomas is a regional school and I don’t think I want to be in Minnesota forever.

I am attracted to the Maryland offer because it was pretty much my first choice, however, it is very costly and the amount of debt I will incur upon graduating worries me. However, I do know that I want to have the option to practice sports and entertainment law in DC, NY, LA, MIAMI, or CHI if I wanted to. And i feel that Maryland Law would give me the best opportunity to do that in the future. Should I take the money and run? Or should I take on the debt to pursue my career goals?

Hello Dave,

I’m a Mexican-American from East Los Angeles and considering applying to law school at age 44. I was looking up on how to pay for law school online and saw your posts. I am married with 5 kids and my oldest 2 are twins that will be starting college Fall 2018. I’ve wrestled with the thought of whether I should even try to attend law school at my age and the same time how will I pay for it and what schools I should apply to. Can you give me any advice on this as well as on which schools in my area offer full rides and what I would need to do to get a full ride?

Thanks!

Jon,

Thank you very much for the information. It helps a ton!

Hi Grace,

Thanks for the questions and kind comments! There are a few things you should look at first, all of which I detail in responses above if you want some references for how that info looks 🙂

I like both schools quite a bit, but Emory is #22, Florida is #41, and so we see how the rankings view the two schools comparatively. But, how much is that rankings difference worth? Start at https://www.lstreports.com/national/ and go look at employment data and job types of the grads at each school. Examine where they practice in terms of geography, firm type, etc. Then calculate your *exact* total debt and monthly payment, if possible, based on tuition, scholarships, cost of living, etc. That debt difference–is it worth the job outcome differences you see from those schools? That’s the real question here. If you’d like, you can post the info and I’ll weigh in, but this all starts with gathering as much data as possible, using debt calculators to see monthly payments, comparing job outcomes, and so on. Having the exact amounts in black and white can really help clarify the choice!

There’s also personal factors here that are significant, and the problem there is aside from what you’e posted above, I don’t know much about you. That makes it really difficult (and somewhat reckless) for me to simply say that school A is better than school B. Maybe you’d thrive at one school but not at the other–that’s the kind of stuff you want to think about as well 🙂

Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

Hi Susan,

Those are great options, congratulations! To me at least, this is a pretty clear-cut case. As much as I love Harvard, I would have a *very* hard time thinking that full tuition there is somehow possibly better than a free ride at Chicago or Columbia. The economics of it just make no sense to pay full ride when you have T6 schools offering that much money to you.

As far as Chicago vs Columbia, these are top level schools, and neither will cause you to “go wrong.” and, you’ll find any community you want at either school. These are broad and varied student bodies with tons of diverse interests 🙂

Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

Hello,

I live in the NW and want to go to law school in Texas. So far, I’ve been accepted into Baylor with a 70k scholarship spread over three years, though I got accepted into Texas AM law school with a full ride scholarship. Which one would you suggest I choose?

Thank you!

How do you differentiate between schools that are similarly ranked? Let’s say you were offered a half scholarship at Minnesota and near full at a mid 30s school like Wake Forest? Is ten-fifteen ranking spots worth 10-15k in scholarship money?

Hi,

I have a similar dilemma between choosing between law schools who have offered me a lot in scholarship funds versus a law school with a more noticeable name. I have received a $30, 000 per year scholarship Suffolk University, Full Ride albeit with a conditional Public Interest Fellowship from UMASS Darthmouth, and $16, 000 from Loyola in Chicago. The two I am focusing on are below:

Quinnipiac – Full Tuition Scholarship – Deans’ Fellowship which includes a 1, 500 per year educational stipend and opportunity to become faculty Research Assistant, the only condition is that I have to stay in the top 50% of my class.
43% Employment/25% Underemployment
USNEWS #125

Northeastern – $10, 000 per year scholarship
57% Employment/29 % Underempployment
USNEWS #65

Still pending responses from University of Connecticut and Boston College. I know I want to practice in Boston, MA regardless of where I go to law school, and I do plan on negotiating my scholarship with Northeastern,though I am not sure if they will be very flexible. I know Northeastern is a better School for me, I absolutely adore their campus, I have friends working in the area so room and board would not be a problem, and I know so much about their co-op program and academics I could practically be a tour guide for their school. The issue truly comes down to money, basically will the differences between these two law schools ultimately lead to a significantly better job if I go to Northeastern?

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the speedy response! I have added the additional information below. I am amidst a year off between graduating undergrad and entering law school, during this time I have been working as a Paralegal at a small law firm which focuses in Health Law. Through this experience I realized I want to pursue Health Law but at a level which influences public policy such as working with a organizations to regulate quality of care given by medical providers or working with the FDA. I know I do not want to work at a small law firm (if possible).

Northeastern:
COA – 68, 943 per year (including living expenses etc.)
Scholarship – 10, 000 per year
______________________________
Total 58, 943 per year resulting in 176,829 in debt after 3 years
$1456 per month

Employment:
55% of grads are employed in MA, the next largest percentage is NY at 8.6%
4.6% Large Firm
24.9% Public Interest
1.2% Federal Clerkship

Quinnipiac:
Cost
COA – 70, 516
Full Tuition Scholarship
Educational Stipend – 1, 500 per year
_____________________________________
Total 20, 376 per year resulting in 61, 128 in debt after 3 years
509 per month

Employment:
76% of Employed Graduates are employed in CT, none from the class of 2016 are employed in MA.
1.3% Large Firm
10.5% Public Interest
0% Federal Clerkship

Also I just received a email from UCONN saying I was accepted! Any merit awards will be in the mailed letter (which I haven’t received yet) but I will keep you updated.

Good afternoon,

First and foremost, I want to thank all of y’all at PowerScore – I took a full-length LSAT prep course last summer, as well as a couple hours of private LSAT tutoring and admissions consulting. I would not be in the position that I currently am without the team’s help and support throughout this entire process!

With that being said, I find myself in a difficult position as to which school to attend next year (the classic “high prestige at sticker price vs. lower ranked school with scholarship money” decision). I am originally from Dallas, TX and am set on staying in-state for law school and work afterwords. Even though things may change in the future, as of now, I am committed to focusing my studies on criminal and constitutional law, possibly working as a prosecutor, appellate lawyer (open to being at either a DA’s office or private firm), or judicial clerkship in the future.

I have been accepted to the following schools:
– UT (no scholarship – planning on sending a reconsideration request)
– SMU ($30,000 per year – sent reconsideration request, but have not heard back yet)
– Baylor (full tuition)
– Houston ($24,500 per year)
– Texas A&M (full tuition)
– Texas Tech ($27,000 per year)

Given UT’s prestige and exceptional connections within the state of Texas, I would hate to turn down such an amazing opportunity. On the other hand, I will personally be responsible for any/all debt I incur, making the other schools look more attractive, despite their lower rankings. For example, the estimated cost of attendance at UT would be about $165,000 vs. SMU at about $156,000 vs. paying only non-tuition costs at Baylor.

I would appreciate any and all advice/guidance in this matter as I prepare to make my final decision.

Once again, thank you for all of y’all’s help and support – amazing program and staff y’all have, keep up the good work!

Sincerely,

Michael

Hi Dave,
I am currently trying to decide between Notre Dame and WashU Law. Notre Dame has offered $40,000 a year scholarship and WashU has offered $38,000 a year scholarship. I want to practice international law possibly in D.C. Any thoughts on what I should do?
Thanks!

Hi Jordan,

Thanks for the message! Two thoughts for you:

First, just above your post in my last reply I talk about some of the factors to look at when evaluating schools. Please check those points out because I think they are very helpful!

Second, if you apply those in this case (and I hope you do), look closely at job outcomes, because the bottom line tuition cost on these two schools is pretty similar (maybe ~$1000 a year difference after your scholarships are taken into account). WashU obviously has the higher ranking, but how you feel about each campus will impact your grades, which will impact your job offers. In other words, there is a TON of information about you that I don’t have, and because of that there’s not enough for me to make a call here. But, if you read my replies above, I talk a lot about tough decisions and what to look for when making them. WashU comes up a fair bit, actually! Reading those will help I think, but more than anything applying a full-scale analysis to this decision is the best place to start.

Thanks!

I’m feeling pretty torn between a few schools that have already accepted me and given good offers. Those deposit deadlines are approaching, too. So, here’s what I know I’m working with: ASU has offered a full scholarship, as have WashU and Boston U. Boston College has offered $35K/year. My goals at present involve doing relatively lower-paying public interest or government work (I genuinely don’t see me wanting to put in BigLaw hours).
In my travels I’ve found that: I’m really not sold on spending 3 years (possibly more) in the midwest; I really like Arizona, but am not totally sold on the legal market there; Boston has a great legal market, all of the people with whom I’ve spoken in Boston have been higher on BC than BU (except for the people currently at BU), and Boston is by far the most expensive place to live of the three. Anything else useful that you could add to my considerations here? I am also rather debt averse, and while my wife and I have some money squirreled away, I am unsure of exactly how far that will go. Any thoughts on my decision welcome.

Hi,
I’m hoping for some help in deciding between BU and Northeastern (I’m still waiting to hear from BC and if I get in that will probably be on the list as well). BU has offered $30,000 a year and Northeastern has offered full tuition, with a deposit deadline of April 2nd (so this is coming down to the wire). I’m not totally sure what kind of law I want to practice, but I do know I want to stay in Boston, at least for a while. I’ll probably go the public interest way (which would put NUSL in front), but also don’t want to paint myself into a corner. I do want my law job to involve science in some way (I have an M.S. already), which could mean environmental law or something with biotech and IP. I got a better, warmer feeling from NUSL than BU, but am worried about the differences in their employment stats (NUSL is about 80% and BU 90%). I don’t currently have any debt and the thought of taking on a lot (~$120,000 for BU vs. ~$60,000 for NUSL) does scare me.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Helen

Hi,
I am struggling a bit to make my decision and, having read your insightful comments, am wondering what your thoughts would be.

I am W/L at most T-14 schools but have received the following offers.

BU ($90K scholarship)
WashU ($70K scholarship)
USC ($125K scholarship)

Any clear winner here? Are placements at any of these better than others outside of the respective regions?
I am going directly from my undergraduate program – are any of these more likely to help me get meaningful work experience/build my resume’?

Many, may thanks.

Hey Mark,

Thanks for the question! I have a question first: What’s your full COA at each school, factoring in travel, etc? I ask since I don’t know where you live, and these three schools are all across the US (literally!), and I would suspect that your cost of living and travel would vary a fair bit at each.

If all else is equal, I would be between WashU and USC. While these schools are all ranked very closely, the employment numbers at WashU and USC are better than BU. USC certainly made a great offer to you, but they do cost more than WashU up front, and WashU does slightly better in placement. USC has a great alumni network, however, which can be helpful.

So, I’d be down to those two schools, but I’d want to know the black and white cost difference before making a final call.

Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks!

Hi, Dave.

Since my previous comment, Loyola has upgraded my scholarship to a full tuition scholarship.
Here’s the breakdown of both schools according to Law School Transparency

Tulane:
Employment score is 62.8%
And unemployment score is 22%
They do have a larger alumni network than Loyola, and I’ve been able to reach out to alumni who live in the area that I want to practice (San Francisco)

Loyola:
Employment score is 45.4%
And the unemployment score is 32.4%
The full scholarship sounds appealing, but I just don’t want my law degree to be limited and I don’t want to be confined to Louisiana. I feel that Tulane is a more nationally recognized school and would be more helpful in getting me a corporate/ip position. I also noticed that in the last class most of Tulane’s students went out of state, with 56/199 remaining in Louisiana.

Hi Mark,

Great, thanks for the extra info! I actually didn’t see the cost comment as it posted while I was replying, so that’s very useful.

In a case where any possible interest in academia is considered, it’s often about the clerkship jobs that you can obtain. In fact, the “prestige” factor of a school often can be assessed by the clerkship and biglaw hiring percentages, since those tend to be the two most desirable job types. Schools that place well in those arenas are showing that the best employers want their grads. Let’s look at each school:

USC Clerkships: 3% (includes state)
USC Biglaw: 38%
From: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/usc/jobs/

WashU Clerkships: ~7.5%
WashU Biglaw: 29%
From: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/washu/jobs/ and http://law.wustl.edu/career_services/employmentdata/EmploymentSummary-20…

So, at first glance, things look a bit mixed. USC places better in large firms, but that’s likely a function of being so proximate to the large legal markets in LA and SF. WUSTL does better in clerkships, but that’s likely also a product of being in the midwest and having access to the slightly less competitive courts (as opposed to California, where USC grads compete frequently with Stanford and Berkeley Law grads; that said, a clerkship is a clerkship just like a biglaw job is a biglaw job no matter the reason).

WashU, not surprisingly, hires better into NYC, but again that’s likely a function of many USC grads deciding to stay in CA (about 89% hired into California).

So, it’s really a toss up in many ways, and in cases like this, I always give the same advice: pick the school you feel best about on a personal level. Your performance in schools–especially that first 1L term–means everything to hiring, and if you can hit the ground running and do better at one school over the other, that opens all the doors. Both schools are good and can get doors open; you need to choose the one that allow you to perform as well as possible, and how happy and comfortable you are at the school plays a big role in that.

Tough decision, but I hope that helps. Please let me know what you decide. Thanks!

Thanks for the reply, Dave.
At this point I am leaning (very slightly) towards Northeastern because I did also get a better feeling when I was there, but I’m definitely not discounting BU. I did go and talk with an admissions counselor at BU who basically said “it’s a personal decision”, so it does seem like there is no objective right choice here. I also haven’t yet heard from BC which is very frustrating as their deposit deadline is April 10th.
Thanks again,
Helen

Hi Kate,

Thanks for the question! Those are great options, and I assume you’ve looked closely at the job reports from each school? Here’s a quick comparison: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/gulc/nyu/columbia/

Here’s what concerns me about GULC: for a “top” school, their biglaw hiring isn’t stellar. If your plan is to specifically go at Biglaw first, then it’s hard to argue against Columbia as the premier name among your choices. The hiring outcomes aren’t really even close, and you can see inside the numbers as to how elite they are compared to both NYU and Gtown.

I’m always concerned about debt, but if you go to CLS and perform reasonably well, your outcomes will be far broader than Georgetown without question, and NYU but to a lesser extent.

There’s no right answer here that anyone else can give you, so carefully consider those career plans and then weigh the debt directly: that’s the cost of having those higher percentages at the end.

Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

Hello,

I have enjoyed reading your article and the conversations in the comment section. After narrowing down my options and excluding offers from other schools, I am still having a bit of difficulty deciding between two law schools. Washington University in St. Louis has offered me a $105,000 scholarship and at Saint Louis University I have been offered a full tuition scholarship. Both schools will have similar cost of living expenses so my decision is whether or not to incur approximately $55,000 in debt to attend WashU.

WashU was my top choice when I began the application process. My undergraduate degree was earned at SLU and I liked attending school in the St. Louis area. I am comfortable on both campuses and would be happy attending either school.

I am not sure where I what to practice but I do want to remain in the mid-west or upper south. Also, I am not sure of the type of law I want to practice but am considering looking at JAG corps, prosecution or criminal defense. If I attend SLU I would choose their Healthcare Law program (ranked #1) with a dual degree in Healthcare Administration to increase my employment opportunities. Because the schools’ rankings are so different, I think I would need to set myself apart from other applicants if I attend SLU.

Are the advantages offered by attending WashU worth $55,000 debt, or would it be better to attend SLU and incur zero debt?

I appreciate any advise that you can offer me.

Nathan

Hi Nathan,

Thanks for the question! In a sense, your choice here is the central discussion we’ve been having throughout the comments, and as you probably noticed, the answer is never black and white. That said, sometimes the shades of grey lean in one direction moreso than the other, and I tend to feel that’s the case here.

First, a direct comparison of the schools is useful: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/washu/slu/. I want you to look at a few things, such as the employment rating (WashU’s is demonstrably better) as well as things like the large firm rating and clerkships rating. That biglaw/clerkship rating is a sort of measuring stick for how the school is viewed on the bigger stage, and WashU is the clear winner here. Rankings too, show that same positions: WashU is #18 and SLU is #88, and a comparison of the LSAT/GPA numbers shows a significant difference. WashU is getting better students and is viewed in a much more positive light overall.

So, the real question reduces to, “is that higher ranking and better reputation/placement worth $55K?” I tend to think it is. If it was $100K or $150K, that would be a much tougher question in my opinion, but $55K doesn’t worry me as much, and you can see a *definite* difference in what you are getting.

One caveat: just keep in mind this is all about how your perform at each school, which is something we can’t know. If you chose SLU and just crushed it, you’d likely end up better off than (or at least the same as) if you just did middle-of-the-pack at WashU.

Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

Thank you for responding! Basically, I had the exact same thoughts, but it was validating to see that someone else agreed with me. I recently went to an admitted student’s day at WashU to get a feel for some of my potential future classmates. Everyone I met seemed pretty nice, and I was fairly impressed by some of the presentations given by the faculty. I will probably end up going there. Again, thank you for the advice. I really appreciate it!

Dave,

I am considering attending law school at the University of South Carolina or the University of Miami. I am from the midwest but attended undergrad in the South. I have many familial ties to South Carolina and have an interest in practicing in the state, however I am concerned about the legal market in South Carolina and believe the University of Miami would allow me to pursue job opportunities around the country. I have been granted a scholarship at the university of South Carolina that is equivalent to me receiving in-state tuition. At Miami I was not granted a scholarship at all and would be paying upwards of 50k$ a year. Should I consider going to Miami which is a higher ranked national school or take the money at South Carolina and possibly be limited to practicing in South Carolina and surrounding states?

Thanks so much for the reply!

Hi,

I am going to USC and it is my freshman year. USC has this program where if you can finish your undergrad in 3 years, while maintaining a 3.8 GPA minimum, then you can not take LSAT and go to their law school. You apply for the program in your junior year, and typically 6 or 7 students apply. There is no set quota, but usually the student that does not get in just has not done interesting stuff on their resume or failed to show interest in USC Law.

Would you recommend doing this USC 3+3 program, or hold a high GPA and take the LSAT and apply to more law schools?

The 3+3 program in the end only saves me about $2,000 because I have a lot of aid. Not saving $75,000 like other students here.

Hi Justin,

Sorry for the delay in replying! Yours is a tough question, and I’m not sure there’s a clearly right—or wrong—direction to take here. The base comparison between Arizona, Florida, and UNLV shows a lot of similarities, although you are correct about the biglaw placement differential at UNLV (on the other hand, they perform better on the clerkship front, which could partially be a product of location: see https://www.lstreports.com/compare/arizona/florida/unlv/). I will note that Florida is a larger school than either Arizona or UNLV, and graduates just under 3 times as many students each year (despite that, UF is on an upward trend and should see some rise in the rankings in the next few years).

So, assuming for a moment that those schools are pretty similar, let’s look at two things you said:

1. ” I’m 37 years old, so the thought of an extra 60k in debt (at least) from Emory when I graduate at 41 feels a bit scary.”

I think this is an important consideration, because your earning horizon is shorter than for younger grads. Given all else you’ve mentioned, I have a hard time justifying taking on debt when you can avoid it by going to other schools where you’d feel just as comfortable. Yes, Emory does well at biglaw, but the rest of their employment numbers aren’t so great as to suggest it’s a great trade to take on debt.

2. “I’d feel most comfortable living in Las Vegas (I have family and friends there)…”

I am a big fan of attending the school where you will feel comfortable, since comfort often helps ease that transition you go through as a 1L. I like the fact that you’d be content anywhere (which is probably also a partial product of you being 37) but it sounds like you are already familiar with Las Vegas and have a support system there. If you can perform well out of the gate, it makes a HUGE difference to your employment prospects, because 1L grades are everything when it comes to jobs.

I think that your base question was about passing up Emory, and while I don’t have all the data, what I see tells me that it wouldn’t be a bad choice for you to do that. As for the remaining schools, I see advantages to each one, so it really comes down to how you feel about each, but a free education from any one of them is hard to beat 🙂

Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

That makes sense. Coincidentally, this might help you a bit: https://blog.powerscore.com/lsat/how-should-freshman-and-sophomores-in-c…. You will want to speed up the process there, but it gives you some steps to take now that might help.

Good luck!

Thanks so much for your thoughts on my situation! Your assessment makes complete sense to me. I think I’m going to opt to go to UNLV. Las Vegas feels like the best fit for me, and I’m very comfortable with the thought of living there after law school. Additionally, UNLV offered me an extra 5K per year on top of my full scholarship. Thanks again for your help!

Hi Alessandra,

This is a difficult question because your post-grad aims are so specific. However, it’s difficult for me since I have limited experience with that sector; for you, there’s an avenue that can help make this decision much easier. What I would do is look at people who have the jobs you seek. you already know a JD is more or elss a requirement, so now go a step farther adn look at the schools that they graduated from. And, weight the more recent grads more heavily in your analysis. someone who got a law degree 30 years ago is far less of a barometer than someone who just got their degree 5 years ago. I suspect that if there is a T20 bias within the profession, you’ll pick up on it rather quickly, and if there is not one, you’ll see that quickly as well.

On that note, remember that general law grads have been trained in recent years to focus on top schools as the job market tightened. That could very well be the case in your policy field, but it might not be also. that’s why looking at job holders will give you clear insight into how the field views these degrees.

As for the MPH degree and then law school, you are right to be concerned about pushing your horizon back even further. I would make the same analysis here, and observe how many people with those degrees are doing the work you want to do, and, equally important, how many are doing that work without that degree. The combination is so specialized that no one can give you a good sense of this other than people in the field.

I hope that helps. Please let me know, thanks!

Hi Dave,
Thank you for the swift reply! I apologize, it is a bit of a specialized question. I would say amongst more recent grads it is true there is a T20 if not a T10 bias. Having gotten into UCLA and waitlisted at a T10 I think I could get into that tier if I reapplied in two years, but probably would have to take on debt. I am trying to weigh the opportunity cost of waiting and graduating later vs. going now to a lower ranked school with somewhat concerning employment numbers. Of Northeastern’s grads who are employed, the vast majority (25%) are employed in public interest, so that is good, but still a 28% underemployment rate is concerning to me.
As to your second question, many people working in my area of interest have both the JD & MPH, with some only having one of the other, but the vast majority who only have one degree have the JD, and those that have both typically only worked for two years not seven before going back to school, so are graduating at 30 with two degrees. I have gotten mixed advice so far as to whether my experience will help or hurt me. ( As a note if I didn’t say above, I would also be getting a full ride for the MPH)
Can I prevail upon your expertise in the changing nature of the legal job market? My thought is that if I wait and reapply more law schools will be accepting the GRE which will help my numbers, but also presumably means there will be many more applicants who also have great GRE scores and passable LSAT scores. I am trying to weigh whether this means my chances are better or worse. Also, I know there has been a huge bump in law applications this year, and it seems more people accepting offers, meaning if I go to school now I will be entering the job market at the same time as that pool, and from a less competitive school. But if I wait, I’ll be graduating two years later and those people will already be in the job market.

Given all this what do you think is the strategic decision?
Thank you,
Alessandra

I received full tuition scolarships at St. Johns U and Penn State Law (The newer campus). I got into U of MD and American U as well. I am still waiting to hear from GULC. Everyone wants their deposit RIGHT NOW and I’ve already extended the deadline multiple times. I am interested in doing Law in DC as well as NYU potentially. I am draw to UMD because of the great faculty staff and alumni base and I am interested in health law. Does Penn State pull well and does the name recognition of Penn State help?! Should I just defer to next year and try taking the test again and try getting into my dream school Columbia?

Do networks matter more than a school’s ranking? Is St. Johns well regarded along the East Coast? Can UMD pull a Big Law Firm? Should I just wait for GULC? I really don’t know what to do.

Hi Andrew – take my advice with a grain of salt but I think I’m the poster above you’re referring to with respect to fordham. I decided to go to fordham and it has a very high placement in biglaw if thats what you want to do. I think 30-40%. There is less pressure to get a high gpa to interview with the big firms – I think the gpa “cut off” is about 3.3 (b+) whereas I am assuming its higher at St. Johns (meaning more pressure to get the best grades). There is always pressure for good grades – but its comforting knowing that you can get straight B+ and still get an interview with a large firm. I also know a 3L who got terrible grades in her first year and was able to get a biglaw interview (and offer) in her third year. Not ideal – but she’s shown me it’s possible. Fordham is very well connected and there are a ton of firms who come to interview on campus. I love the city, the campus, the people. Upperclassmen are so incredibly helpful. Just my 2 cents – I’m rushing because its finals time and its incredibly stressful but I’ve met a lot of great people here and have been afforded a lot of opportunities and if you’d like to talk further let me know and I’ll give you my email. N

Thanks for weighing in Nikki, and you make an excellent point about grades! I’m also glad things are working out, which is great proof to everyone that you have to go with your gut feeling in all of these choices 🙂

Good luck on finals!

Hi Tori,

Thanks for the question, and good job on using AccessLex–they have some good info 🙂

There are several points in this decision that I find interesting:

1. Cleveland-Marshall’s employment numbers: they aren’t great. You made note of it, and for other readers, the head-to-head comparison is here: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/cincinnati/cleveland/. I think you are right to be very wary, although a free education is certainly a great counter-balance to those numbers.

2. The Cleveland-Marshall attrition rate. It’s over 5% yearly (7.4% last year), and that to me is always a bad sign. Good schools don’t lose students at that rate, and you can see the UC number was just 1% last year. They work to keep the struggling students and not many of the top student transfer out.

3. The total debt at UC: it’s under $100K, so that makes it a bit more manageable. If we were looking at $130K or 150K, then I’d be far more concerned, but your number isn’t entirely unmanageable.

4. The fact that both UC has set you up to have great 1L summer experience with a paid fellowship. This is hard to beat if it’s what interests you! And, obtaining that 1L Summer job is for most people, fraught with tension. Here they have you covered.

5. The fact that you love Cleveland. I’m a believer that people perform best when they are happy and comfortable, and Cleveland looks like a great setup for you. Could you get into a similar groove at Cincy? Probably, but only you know for sure.

Overall, I have some doubts about CM Law but they have risen in recent rankings, which is a sign they are working on it (and their offer to you reflects that). I also think UC is a solid school, and there is a lot to be said for having better options coming out of school. Is that worth $90K? I’d be inclined to think so, but critics would point out that at CM, even if you can’t find a job you still aren’t saddled with a debt load. So, overall I lean towards UC, but consider that debt carefully.

Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

Hi Andrew,

I was kind of of the mindset when applying that I would go to the best school I got into no matter the debt. Then, when the actual number-crunching made the debt seem more real, is when I starting second guessing that choice and came on here to check it out. I decided to go with my gut and go to the best school I got into (which was fordham) but I can’t say I would have followed my gut if I was accepted at a higher ranked school with 300k debt. Like Dave said its whats best for YOU – and I think for me I was willing to take the risk that I might end up paying my debt off longer if I didn’t get the grades. If you’re really not willing to take the risk then don’t do it just for the name because years from now unless its ivy league not many people care about the name anyway.

Thank you so much!

Hi Dave!

I am a law student from Singapore. I graduated from the National Uni of Singapore recently with a law degree and reasonable grades in law school (not too bad but nothing spectacular. I will be doing the bar exam here in Singapore and then my pupillage at an intl law firm.

My long term goal however is to move to the US and practice there. As such, I am hoping to go do an LLM first (aiming for Northwestern, BU or UCLA). I hope to do well in the LLM and make contacts at the uni so that I am eventually able to transfer to the JD program. Do you think this is a good idea?

Hi Nick,

Thanks for the message, and hello to you in beautiful Singapore! Let me ask you a question here: is your idea to get an LLM based on the fact that you want to keep working while waiting to get into a JD program, or is it solely aimed at using that to get into a JD program? If it is solely to transfer, that is a viable pathway, but do your research at each school and find out how many students they typically take from the LLM program, and whether they will take them without an LSAT score (some do such as UCLA, some don’t).

So, as long as the school takes a reasonable portion of LLMs, it’s a plan that can work well.

Please let me know if that helps. Thanks and good luck!

Hi Dave, I’ve got an NC question on which I’m hoping you might be able to provide some guidance. I didn’t get into Duke, like many others, but I did get a full tuition scholarship to NCCU, also in Durham. I’m on the waitlist at UNC as well, and took the June LSAT as a means of getting admitted there or getting money for Central.

I plan on staying in the state after graduating, but am not sure about which field of law in which I’d like to practice. My question is this, assuming I get off the waitlist: is it worth taking anything less than a full tuition scholarship from UNC to go to a Top50 school in the same area, even if it means paying full ticket price? Especially in state, the difference between Duke and Central might be pronounced, but I’m not sure if the gap between NCCU and UNC is worth three years of tuition. Central has had some issues with the state bar though, and kicked out 110 students of this class in order to get better with their bar passage rate. I’ve reached out to a number of legal professionals throughout the system to get a good opinion from them, but I was curious if you had a strong opinion either way. Thanks in advance for the help!

These are the LST figures for the two schools: cost of living for both would be similar, obviously both schools have great programs for social service, but these are the other stats:

UNC: $23,049 a year tuition
NCCU: $19,040.

Bar passage rate: UNC: 80%
NCCU: 55%

LST employment score: UNC 67.7%
NCCU 21%

Underemployment score: UNC 17.4%
NCCU 39.9%

Large firm score: UNC 24%
NCCU 4%

Small firm score: UNC 7%
NCCU 14%

Clerkship score: UNC 6.7%
NCCU 1.2 %

Thank you for the help! I’ll keep you updated as we get into August with what happens!

Hi Michael,

Thanks for the message and the kind words! And welcome to the Bay Area later this year–I have family out here and spend a lot of time in the area. If you’ve never lived here before, you’ll love it 🙂

The question you ask is a tough one, mainly because there are so many scenarios that could play out. Let’s say you get no money form Berkeley, then I’d think that if you get less than 50% tuition from Hastings, I’d start strongly looking at Berkeley. In other words, how much more will Berkeley cost you in comparison? If it’s not much more than Hastings, I’d go to Berkeley. If it’s a significant amount more, that’s when I’d start looking at Hastings more seriously. I realize that’s about as loose a guideline as you can get, but at this point, that is the general framework I’d be operating under.

Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

Hi Nick,

Thanks for the reply! We’ve moved into some very specific questions, and as you can see, different schools have different policies. So, for questions #1 and #2, I have to defer to the schools you are applying to–they are the best place to get specific answers.

#3: Yes, it will help, without question 🙂

#4: Same scores as any US applicant: mid- to upper-160s into the 170s.

#5: No, plenty are accepted every year!

Thanks!

Hey Nick,

Thanks for the question! LR is such a big topic that it can be difficult to get a handle on it. The workbook will help, but in the meantime, start by reading the following:

https://blog.powerscore.com/lsat/retaking-the-lsat-what-to-do-differentl…

and focus on items 1, 3, 4.LR.A, and 6 in there.

Getting better at LR can be a real grind, mainly because you need to do a lot of questions and deeply review those questions until you see the patterns in what they are doing. To help do that, track everything and revisit questions frequently–there is a ton of info that can be squeezed out of every question!

Good luck!

Dear Dave,

One last thing, if I were to apply for an early decision application, how would you recommend that i apply? and is it possible to apply ED to more than 1 school? Sincerely appreciate your help!

With Best Regards,
Nick

Hi Nick,

Your chances are slightly better at BU due to their LSAT medians being lower, if I recall correctly.

Early decision is your call–there has to be a school you love so much you will go there for sure if accepted. That’s not always the case for everyone, so it depends on you 🙂

Thanks!

Hi Nick,

Thanks, it’s no problem! My vagueness comes from you are asking me questions that are so broad and have so many variables that I can’t give a great answer 🙂 Could you get in ED to one of those schools? Sure! Do I know how likely it is? Not really from just your LSAT score.

As far as the personal statement, here’s my lengthy seminar I did on it. This contains a lot of my thoughts on how to get to a great result:

https://vimeo.com/94191768

Enjoy!

Hi Nick,

No, I wouldn’t use that explanation. It is never met favorably because it reflects the fact that you either didn’t properly prioritize the test or you didn’t manage your schedule well enough. And, they’d say, why take it if you weren’t totally ready?

Better to not draw attention to that point 🙂

Hi Dave,

My daughter is trying to decide between sticker price at University of Miami and Loyola (Los Angeles) and a full-tuition scholarship to Capital University, an unranked regional school in Ohio. I don’t believe she has her sights on big law firms but wants to have a stable, well-paying career nonetheless. The free cost of tuition at Capital is nice because it’s close to home and on top of the 50k+ spent at Loyola and Miami, the two cities offer some of the highest living costs. We just need help on deciding if the ranked school is better or the free tuition. Thanks!

Hi Melanie,

Your daughter faces one of the true classic decisions here. First, do your research on job outcomes and locations! Start here: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/capital/miami/loyola-la/

Capital has some very low employment rates, which are a reflection of the ranking (or vice versa, depending on how you view it). But of course it’s free, so that minimizes her risk as a student and then as a practicing attorney. Her career options and likely trajectory do change, however, if she goes here.

The flip side is a load of debt, and while both Loyola and Miami have better job outcomes, there are no guarantees with degrees from either.

Your daughter needs to closely consider her interests and pathways as a lawyer, and what she hopes to gain from attending any given school because the choice here is too difficult for an outsider like me to make 🙂

Good luck!

Hi Dave,

I am trying to decide between a Dillard at UVA and Stanford (with whatever need-based I’ll receive, but I don’t think it will be much).

I’m interested in PI… not sure if I want to go the government direction or the non-profit direction though. I really do want to do a clerkship and I know that depending on how well I do, I can do this from either school.

I have family at Stanford and my SO at UVA, so that also complicates the decision for me.

Do you think there is a significant disadvantage career-wise to attending UVA? Or how big do you think the disadvantage is? I’ve looked at all the employment stats and am still having trouble knowing how significant the difference is.

Thank you in advance for your thoughts and advice!

Hi Dave,

I’m in the boat of people who don’t know where they would like to practice law after school. For that reason I want to go to a school with a more national reach so I can be flexible. Unfortunately I’m not in a position where I’m deciding between T14 schools. The highest ranked school that I’ve been admitted to is UCLA and I’m doing everything I can to make that option affordable for me. I think it’s a great fit for me because I am interested in immigration/public interest law and they have a great program for that. They are supposed to come out with their scholarship offers at the end of this month, but based upon what I’ve read online my best guess is that if they gave me anything it would be between 40-60K total.

My options right now are between that and UCI at 67K, GW at 75K, and Minnesota at full ride. While I know Minnesota is ranked rather high and they’ve given me full ride, I’m not so sure I want to be stuck there after graduation. I’m using my full ride offer and an offer of 120K from UC Davis to negotiate for more at UCI and hopefully then using that higher offer from UCI to negotiate with UCLA. GW has stated explicitly that their offer is meant to be final but that there is an application I can fill out for them to reconsider the offer. However, they would only be able to tell me if they are able to increase my scholarship offer after the deadline to reserve my seat. I’m not sure if there is any way of getting around that to negotiate a higher offer, but I’m working with the assumption that that will be my final offer.

Given that, I was wondering your thoughts on, if it came down to it, ~100K in debt from GW vs. ~100K in debt from UCLA. I would be happy in either a CA or DC market, and from what I understand UCLA has some good connections to the DC market too. I am also wondering if that amount of debt is worth it for those schools or if I should take the money from UCI, Davis or Minnesota and run.

Thanks.

Hi Zach,

Thanks for the question! Let’s see, USC with more money vs Fordham with less? Yeah, for me that would tilt strongly towards USC. USC has a similar overall cost, better employment figures, more federal clerkships, and a better large firm employment rate: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/usc/fordham/. To get $45K more there? Not really a tough choice since LA is a huge legal market in this country (not as big as NYC, but still quite reputable and the work experience there is portable to NYC).

So, what about USC vs Penn? If you were getting money at Penn, this wouldn’t be a tough choice since Penn has much stronger employment and prestige factors: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/usc/penn/

However, with Penn costing about $160K more (money plus cost of living difference), then it becomes harder. Each school isn’t cheap, but paying off ~$190K is obviously a lot easier than paying off ~$350K. That differential there is what you are paying for to get the opportunity at better job results. Whether that’s worth it to you is a personal choice. I personally don’t love debt, and having a family makes those obligations tougher. Penn opens more doors and better ones at that (usually) but USC opens plenty of doors on its own merit but fewer of the true elite jobs (clerkships being top level, biglaw second). I’m not sure of the best call for you, but I would suggest looking at biglaw hours vs the idea of your family. The two can be tough to blend.

I hope that helps a bit!

Hi Jacque,

It’s a tough one! LSU is of course far cheaper than Tulane on straight costs, but you are right that biglaw becomes unlikely (4.9% biglaw placement for LSU).

You’ve probably seen this too: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/lsu/jobs/. It shows that about 29% of LSU grads end up at firms with 10 or fewer attorneys, so chances are significant that you might end up at a small firm (Tulane is 13.7%).

On straight employment vs cost, LSU is hard to beat, but when you factor in the type of jobs (which you should!), it gets to be very close. If you do reasonably well at LSU, you’ll be fine as far as avoiding that rural job, so I’d probably lean that way if they give you more $$, but you have to look in the mirror here and make an unflinching self-assessment of what you want and what it is worth to you!

Thanks and please let us know what you do!

Hi Dave,

As you stated above I need to first thank the PS Bibles for putting me in this great position to begin with! Pending waitlist movement (4 t14 waitlists, and still pending at NYU) I have narrowed my choices down to 3 schools and calculated the debt I would leave each school with:

Virginia (250k), WashU (90k), Wisconsin (30k, in-state & alma mater)

I am not interested in big law, but I am interested in clerking (preferably federal to help with future academia dreams), working for the government (potentially federal, though I could be happy with state probably as quality of life and a reasonable work week is important to me), or in another public service role. If my grades turn out right I would eventually like to make my way into academia/teaching perhaps. Landing a full professorship would be my most highly desired mid-career outcome I think after getting some government work experience under my belt, though I know that is a fairly remote possibility and I need to not necessarily make plans with that goal in mind.

I do not want to be stuck in one employment market for the next 3-4 decades but am otherwise pretty flexible on that end besides generally not wanting to live in huge cities due to high COL. Since I am not planning on big law, a strong LRAP program is of course very enticing/important for my post-law school financial situation. If I know I am committed to public service work, does that make an astronomical debt burden more theoretical since I would be on a school or government forgiveness route? What other factors should I be thinking about here? I will be attending all 3 school’s ASWs this spring.

The estimated debt burdens at graduation again are Virginia – 250k, WashU 90k, Wisconsin 30k. My WashU scholarship is 130k total – would I be able to get UVA to budge at all on their current $0 offer in comparison with that?

Thank you in advance if you have any thoughts! (Love the new pod as well!)

Brian

Apologies Dave,

I neglected to include relevant info in my above post:

Virginia
USN – 9
ATL – 2
Debt at graduation – 250k
Scholarship – $0
Employment – 92%
Underemployment – 2%
Bar Passage – 96%
Federal Clerkships – 10%
Public Service – 10%
Placement – NY 28%, DC 23%
Monthly Loan Payments on 10 yr. plan – $2,819 (LRAP?)

WashU
USN – 18
ATL – 17
Debt at graduation – 90k
Scholarship – 130k
Employment – 86%
Underemployment – 5%
Bar Passage – 87%
Federal Clerkships – 4%
Public Service – 13%
Placement – MO 25%, NY 15%
Monthly Loan Payments on 10 yr. plan – $1,011 (assuming LRAP here isn’t as good as UVA’s..?)

Wisconsin
USN – 27
ATL – 42
Debt at graduation – 30k
Scholarship – 70k
Employment – 74%
Underemployment – 5%
Bar Passage – 100% (diploma privilege)
Federal Clerkships – 4%
Public Service – 32%
Placement – WI 67%
Monthly Loan Payments on 10 yr. plan – $311

Obviously at UVA and WashU I would never be able to afford the 10 yr. standard repayment plan so would need to be financing through some combination of school LRAP, government PSLF, IBR, RePAYE, or something like that (if that’s even a prudent idea).

I also wanted to quickly add that I feel supremely comfortable and at home in a college town environment such as UW & UVA (unsure what WashU’s campus and the Clayton, MO area is like but am visiting), for law school and also for after potentially..

Thank you so much again in advance if you are able to take a look at my analysis so far! (And for the bibles!!)

Brian

Hi Brian/Dave/everyone,

I’m in the luckiest position I can imagine and have gotten in to a lot of great schools. I have it (roughly) narrowed down to Harvard, Yale, Columbia, and NYU, with the possibility of full-tuition public interest scholarships at both Columbia and NYU, and I am expecting zero need-based aid from Harvard and Yale. I am fully 100% committed to public interest, but I’m not sure exactly what I want that to look like — I could easily see myself in a legal services/public defender career, or something more policy-oriented eventually, and I don’t know enough about clerking to know if I want to clerk. There’s also a chance I might want to move abroad at some point. I don’t think I want to do academia (unless we’re talking about clinical professorships, which seem to be a different beast) but again, don’t really know. So…basically I want to keep my options open, with the knowledge that I definitely want to do public interest and would be fully relying on the LRAP programs at Harvard and Yale (and ostensibly at NYU/Columbia for cost of living loans).

My instinct is that Yale > Harvard if I’m paying sticker. The only doubt I have about that is around Harvard’s larger network/greater name recognition if I’m living overseas and need connections. Do you think this is a legitimate doubt? That aside, would you agree that Yale > Harvard in terms of creating opportunities for most public interest-oriented people? Any other comments on that?

That aside, paying sticker to Yale might be stupid if I get a public interest scholarship at NYU or Columbia. The NYU scholarship is named (it’s the RTK) while the Columbia one isn’t. I don’t really have a sense of how much better these opportunities would be compared to Yale at sticker with my goals. I have a feeling that Columbia has better overseas recognition than NYU, but the Root program has additional benefits that can’t really be measured because of the level of support and the network it provides.

But I’m conflicted, because I also am really drawn to Yale’s lack of grades and general chiller/theoretical atmosphere! Also it’s Yale (who turns down Yale?)! I guess I’m asking how stupid it would be to choose Yale over the Root, since my goals are not super specific at the moment and I don’t really have a reason that Yale would uniquely help me get to wherever I’m going (except maybe int’l prestige). Their LRAP is obviously great but it’s also a LOT of debt, and who knows what life could throw at me.

Any commentary you might have on any element of this situation/general panic would be amazing. The people I love are great, but they don’t really get law school stuff, and I don’t have too many people to talk to about this decision.

Thank you so much.

-Ella