March 28, 2018

Non-Traditional Law School Applicants: Old Folks Rule!

This blog is brought to you by PowerScore Instructor & Tutor, Adam Tyson.

When I took the LSAT for the first time, I was 31 years old, 8 years out of college, married, with a 2-year-old son, working full-time at a large non-profit institution, had a mortgage, and was the primary breadwinner in the household. I was, in other words, a “non-traditional” applicant.

Does This Sound Like You?

I was nervous about the process. Would any law school be interested in an “old guy” like me? Who would I ask for letters of recommendation, when I couldn’t expect my old professors to remember me very well? My GPA was…let’s say “unimpressive,” but by this time I was more mature and ready to put in the effort that had been missing from my undergraduate studies. How could I convey that to an admissions officer? Even if I got in, would I fit in with all those 22-year-olds who had nothing but time on their hands to study? How would I compete with them for jobs when they would be ready, willing, and able to put in 120 hours a week while I needed to get home to my family and be involved in raising my son?

Law Schools Want a Diverse Applicant Pool

Turns out, I needn’t have worried. Back then, law schools were actually pretty interested in seeing a diverse applicant pool. They still are now. When I queried admissions personnel from some of the top law schools in the country, I got a wide array of responses. This one from Robin Holman, Assistant Director of Admissions for Operations at Duke University School of Law, sums up what most of them had to say:

“We look at more than just the numbers, and all material submitted will be taken into consideration. Diversity enriches the educational experience of all our students. We seek to admit students from different academic, cultural, social, ethnic, and economic backgrounds.”

In other words, bring it on! Your age and experience are assets that set you apart. So don’t be afraid of them, but embrace and highlight them.

You Aren’t Alone

However, don’t get too cocky! It can be easy to fall into the trap of believing that you are somehow unique in this regard. There are plenty of non-traditional applicants out there applying to law schools right now. Bekah Saidman-Krauss, Assistant Dean for Admissions & Financial Aid at Penn State Dickinson Law, which accepts a “fair number” of non-traditional applicants, told me:

“Applicants don’t know the diversity of the pool, so they shouldn’t assume they’re just like — or not like — other students applying to the school.”

In other words, an applicant who displays an attitude in their personal statement that they are somehow unique and unlike other applicants is a real turn-off. So don’t do that!

Enhancing Your Career

Many non-traditional candidates may be thinking of their law degree as a resume-enhancer, or to supplement rather than replace their existing career. I see this a lot with financial planners, real estate professionals, and people involved one way or another with child advocacy. I had a law school classmate who was a surgeon, and who, knowing that he couldn’t wield a scalpel forever, was preparing for a second career as an expert witness in medical malpractice litigation! You may be at a disadvantage for those Big Law jobs that the young folks are gunning for. But there are still plenty of opportunities for you in the legal and quasi-legal fields. Here’s what Desmond Wu, Assistant Director of Admissions at UCLA School of Law told me on that issue:

“Because prospective students pursue law degrees for varying reasons, students who are interested in practicing law are not necessarily advantaged or disadvantaged when compared to students seeking to enhance a current career. What is more important is that they are able to tell a compelling story about why they are pursuing a law degree.”

Helpful Advice for Non-Traditional Students

As I spoke to these folks and others in their position, I heard a lot of the same helpful information about applications from non-traditional students, like:

Numbers (your LSAT and GPA) matter, but the story doesn’t end there, not by a long shot. If your GPA is long ago and, like mine, unimpressive, make up for it with a great LSAT score.
Law schools take a holistic approach to reviewing the application. They are all looking for more than just the numbers.
They are interested in “indicators of success,” whether academic, professional, or both.
Strong letters of recommendation are very important — don’t just ask for a LOR, ask for a glowing LOR. And talk to the prospective recommender first to be sure you, and they, are confident they can provide that.
Visit the schools that interest you and meet not only with admissions staff but with current students like you. That way you can get a real feel for what it’s like from someone who is in your shoes.
Be sure you submit a well-written personal statement! Tell your story. The longer you have been away from school, the more important it will be to focus on what you have done since then.

Final Notes

I’ll add to all this what I got from my discussions with all of the admissions folks I spoke with. They are a very friendly and helpful bunch. Remember, they aren’t just gatekeepers intent on keeping the wrong folks out (although that is, of course, part of the job). They are recruiters, looking to fill their schools with a group of great and diverse people like you who will enhance each others’ experience and enrich the school. Call them! Ask questions, like I did, without fear or doubt. Talk to them like the professionals you and they are.

Sandra Hemmes
March 28, 2017 at 5:46pm
I have been interested in law since I was in my Thirties. I raised 7 children on my own, developed and maintained my own business for five years, learned how to fly a small plane, took martial arts classes earning three belts, played hockey with the wives team of L.A.P.D., earned two bachelor degrees; one in history, another in criminal justice. Am currently in my MBA program. I am the illegitimate daughter of the United States Supreme Court Chief Justice Earl Warren, of which I am not famous. I do have his great interests in law.
Sandra Hemmes

Erik Delaney
March 28, 2017 at 10:01pm
Sandra, are you planning to attend law school?

Torrell Mills
March 29, 2017 at 1:05am
This is respectable. With candor comes an appreciation for the experiences individuals have endured. I pray that more students can remain up front about whom they are instead of putting on a facade about who they imagine themselves to be.

Danielle
March 29, 2017 at 10:18am
I am also older (30’s) and looking to start law school next fall. I have had some of the schools call me up and talk to me about their school (ranked about 55 to 60), gives me a good feeling to know that at my age I am not in a long shot type of position. I would love for you to write about law school applications from those who went to an online school. I spent 10 years in the Air Force and the degree I wanted was not offered on the bases where I was stationed so my option was either to wait or to use an online program. And when I got out I completed it while living out of the US working as a volunteer teacher for the deaf and deaf/blind. My GPA is 3.95 and my LSAT is mid 160’s right now but I am hoping it will go up a few points before the September test. I would love to go to a school like UNC or ASU so I would love to get a feel for how schools of that rank view an online degree. Will my numbers and the things I did be enough to overcome any negative perspectives of an online degree?

Tiffany Raeburn
March 29, 2017 at 1:16pm
This article was so encouraging to read. The article summed up some of my most nagging thoughts. It actually sounded very similar to my story.
If I were to copy, paste, and tweak some of the beginning of his story, my apprehensions about the process could be summed up as such: “When I took the LSAT for the first time, I was 28 years old, 6 years out of college, married, with a 2-year-old son, working part-time as the church secretary and full-time as a mother. I was nervous about the process. Am I took old for this change? Do have the right kind of career experience? Who would I ask for letters of recommendation, when I couldn’t expect my old professors to remember me very well? My GPA was…let’s say “unimpressive,” but by this time I was more mature and ready to put in the effort that had been missing from my undergraduate studies. How would I compete with them for jobs when they would be ready, willing, and able to put in 120 hours a week while I needed to get home to my family and be involved in raising my son?”
The last line has probably been the biggest concern for me related to this journey. “How can I compete…when being part of the life of my son is a priority to me?” “Will chasing this dream come at the expense of my family?”
I was so glad to read that someone else struggled with these thoughts and feelings, and still moved forward.

ronda ellis
March 30, 2017 at 2:27am
I enjoyed reading the article also and the picture of the seasoned guy , really have me encouraged to follow through , I’m also one with a not do favorable undergrad gpa but a very impressive Graduate school GPA of 4.0 , I’ve been told that doesn’t count but I beg to differ, Graduate school are more intensive than undergrad i believe it’s an indicator of success and achievement. Guess I’ll give admissions to law school a chance .

Dave Killoran
March 30, 2017 at 2:37am
That sounds great Ronda, and we’re glad you enjoyed the article! One nice thing: the further you are away from undergrad, the more weight your graduate GPA is given. So, give the LSAT your best shot and see how it goes. And, we’re always here to help if you need any advice or assistance. Thanks and good luck!

Dave Killoran
March 30, 2017 at 2:46am
Hi Danielle,
Thanks for the question! Speaking from years of experience with helping students in law school admissions, a student at your age is not a long shot at all, and is frankly not all that unusual anymore. Your age gives you insight and experience that younger students cannot match, and those traits are valued by law schools (partially because they add an extra dimension to the class and classroom discussions, partially because they represent a degree of stability and maturity that only comes with age).
Online degrees become more prevalent each year, and thus law schools are becoming more and more comfortable with them. I think you make a great suggestion about an article on them, and I’ve added that to my personal topic list (when I post it, it will appear here: http://blog.powerscore.com/lsat/author/dave-killoran). The key piece here is your LSAT score: it’s a universal comparison point, the law schools are quite familiar with it, and it stands apart from your school or grades. If you go out and score in the mid-160s or higher, that will erase any doubts that the school has about academic performance or your viability as a candidate. So, in your case, your LSAT score is probably more important than usual (which is saying a lot since it’s already quite important for every candidate). Do well, and you will be fine!
If you need any LSAT help or advice, just let us know. We’re happy to help!

Dave Killoran
March 30, 2017 at 2:48am
Hi Tiffany,
I’m so glad to hear this resonated with you and made you feel better about the process! I’m sure Adam will add some thoughts in response to your comment, but I just wanted to chime in an express my appreciation for you letting us know this helped you. Thanks very much!

Adam Tyson
March 30, 2017 at 5:04am
Hey there Tiffany, I’m glad to hear my story resonated with you. I’ll add that I was hardly the oldest person in my program in law school, and now that I teach the LSAT I have students in nearly every class who are in similar situations.
So, how will you compete with those younger folks, the ones with no spouse, no kids, no mortgage, and all the time in the world to work their way up from the bottom in a big law job? Let’s be honest here – you won’t. You don’t want to, either. Instead, start by giving some thought to what you want to do with your law degree, what type of environment you want to work in. You’ll want a culture that supports your family life rather than interfering with it. Smaller firms, maybe doing transactional work like estate planning or real estate closing, or a corporate position with fairly traditional business hours might be the right path for you. Picture yourself in your legal career – what does it look like? Where are you? Now go find people who are in that same career and talk to them about it. Take them for coffee, pick their brains. Heck, talk to them about doing some work for them so you can get a feel for it!
Now, about your letters of recommendation. We all know that full-time mothers are about the hardest working people there are. Anyone who thinks that isn’t a “real” job is stuck in another era, with their head firmly planted…well, in the wrong place. But how do you get a great letter of recommendation? Look to people that you have worked with as a volunteer or part-time employee. The church where you are/were secretary would be my starting place, but think about who else in your world can testify to your work ethic, drive, and dedication. Have you done any volunteer work? Have you interacted with other parents, some of whom may be professionals, who have seen how you manage your many responsibilities? Search for it and you’ll find it. Would you believe that I had one of my high school teachers do one of mine? I had stayed in touch with him over the years, one of those guys like in the movie Mr. Holland’s Opus that just stays with you, and he was happy to oblige.
One last thing, and that’s the LSAT. To overcome that unimpressive GPA and what may be less than perfect LORs, you need to crush it. Take a practice test. Do some self-study. Attend every free class, online and in person, that you can get your hands on. Maybe consider a tutor or a course, maybe not, but do whatever it is you need to do to maximize that number and get your foot in the door at a good school that will help you pass the bar and get a job. In our position, the LSAT can overcome a lot of those other obstacles. I’m sure that was the biggest factor for me, much more than whatever my old high school teacher had to say, as nice as I’m sure it was.
Only you can determine whether chasing this will have a positive or negative effect on your family, but that’s actually in your hands and you can choose to make it work. Talk to the stakeholders in your family, determine what their level of support is, make a plan to make it work, and then follow through on that plan. You can do it. I know, because I did, and others before and since have also.
Good luck!

Adam Tyson
April 01, 2017 at 5:43pm
Hey Danielle, let me add to what Dave said and say that your numbers, both GPA and LSAT, will by themselves only open the door for you. It’s going to be the rest of your application that will matter once that door opens. Yes, your online degree will likely be somewhat discounted compared to more traditional programs, especially compared to more prestigious institutions, but you have the opportunity to balance that out with a great story about why and how you pursued that option. And a great story it is! To get your degree while serving, first in the military and then as a volunteer in the civilian world, is impressive and inspiring. I know folks who spent as much or more time in the military than you who never took a single college level class, despite many opportunities to do so, and others who took just a few but never finished the program. Great job!
I’ll repeat the advice I gave in the article, and that’s to call the schools you are interested in and talk to them about your situation. I expect you will get a warm welcome from both of those programs. Don’t be afraid to apply to a couple of “reach” schools, too, especially if your LSAT comes up a bit.
Good luck, let us know how it goes! (Oh, and by the way, not that I’m biased or anything, but “Go Heels!”)
Adam

Alicen Rodolph
October 07, 2017 at 1:08am
I’m curious how far back I should go on my resume? I’m 31 and applying for next fall. I have worked since I was 12, but I doubt they want me to go back that far. Would you say the standard is 10 years? The applications ask for ALL work experience, but after about 10 years it gets a little muddled. Thank you!

Alicen Rodolph
October 07, 2017 at 1:08am
I’m curious how far back I should go on my resume? I’m 31 and applying for next fall. I have worked since I was 12, but I doubt they want me to go back that far. Would you say the standard is 10 years? The applications ask for ALL work experience, but after about 10 years it gets a little muddled. Thank you!

Adam Tyson
October 09, 2017 at 7:27pm
Unless that childhood work experience was something extraordinary, like running your own online business that you eventually sold for millions, I think you are safe omitting the small stuff. Perhaps just a comment about “babysitting, lawn mowing, paper route, etc.” would be in order, but otherwise don’t sweat it.I’m sure I made no mention of those jobs on my application, although I had them. I’d focus on just those jobs that involved a paycheck. I think I may have omitted some of those, too, come to think of it, like when I was a 15-year-old cashier at Burger King. Be honest and forthright and complete, but don’t go nuts on the small stuff. Good luck!

S James
July 25, 2018 at 9:36pm
I am an older student (50’s) with a well established career as a business owner and sold my businesses with the intent on going to law school My college GPA is weak and my LSAT was less than I hoped for. I am hoping that my business experience ( I owned several Insurance agencies and Pawn Shops) will help get across the finish line. After speaking with a few schools they tend to only mention the LSAT, GPA, and Character and Fitness…..This seems odd and goes against your findings….any thoughts on why the resume was not apart of the discussion?
S

Adam Tyson
July 26, 2018 at 3:55pm
Your resume will be a useful part of your application, but an admissions counselor might not suggest that because they need to avoid any suggestion of bias, such as favoring someone with a career like yours over someone less experienced. Did you ask directly whether you should include a copy of your resume? I expect they would have said that you may do so, and they would consider everything in your application in making their decision. However, focus on your Personal Statement, as that is where you will get to tell the story behind that resume – who you are, how you got to be where you are, why you are interested in law school, and why they should be interested in you. Just like your numbers, the resume is just a part of the story, so don’t rely too heavily on it. And regarding the LSAT, if you aren’t happy with your current score, consider taking it again! The November test is still plenty early in the admissions cycle, and that would give you almost four months to prepare for it and bring that number up to something more reflective of your true capabilities. Give that some thought, and good luck!

S James
July 26, 2018 at 4:06pm
Thank you

Brenda Sheetz
August 12, 2018 at 5:27pm
I took the LSAT, Got into Law school but turned it down. I was offered a scholarship to the Nurse Practitioner school where I had gone for my for my MSN/FNP. My reasoning for turning down Law school was to accept the scholarship for my MSN/FNP Degrees!!
I did that & now I am an ADVANCED REGISTERED NURSE PRACTITIONER.
I passed the school WITH HONORS!!
I now would like to pick up the Law school interest again!!
I guess I will have to retake the LSAT EXAM CORRCT? THEN FORWARD TO APPLY TO LAW SCHOOL CORRECT?
THANK YOU,
Brenda W. Sheetz
ARNP-BC-MSN/FNP/BSN

John Moonitz
September 23, 2018 at 9:21am
I graduated from UCLA with a 3.84 GPA, B.A. in History, as a non-traditional student (I had worked as a carpenter’s apprentice for just under 4 years, and then lived in Europe for approximately 4 and a half years doing volunteer work before moving back to the United States, so I was 31 when I graduated). By 2002 I had started my career as a real estate appraiser, which I have been for the past 16 years. I have long had an interest in law, and have grown increasingly fed up with my current career. I am now 49 years old, and will likely be 50 by the time I begin law school. I have not yet taken the LSAT, but assuming I score high enough to get into a law school like UCLA or USC, what are some of the pros and cons to attending a school like this as opposed to a school like UNLV (another law school I’m considering)?

Dave Killoran
September 24, 2018 at 10:03pm
Hi John,
Thanks for the message! In recent years, the nontrad law space has really expanded, so it’s likely there will be plenty of people in your class of your age or older. Not the majority of the class, of course, but enough people so you won’t be alone 🙂
As far as the school choices, law is a very brand-oriented profession, and so it’s always a tough choice between the biggest name vs cost. Schools in the Top 14 (T14) or Top 25 (T25) of the US News rankings are valued very highly within the legal profession, but that largely applies to getting jobs at law firms and with judges, etc. If you were doing your own thing or had a job lined up, it becomes less important.
In short, USC and UCLA are both bigger name draws but often the financial aid you receive at higher ranked schools is less. UNLV is a far more local law school, but due to the lower ranking they often incentive strong applicants moreso than higher ranked schools. So it’s a classic case of prestige vs money. The question is always how much you should pay for that prestige, and I’ve written dozens of replies to students debating that very question at https://blog.powerscore.com/lsat/scholarship-vs.-prestige-when-to-take-t….
Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

Lillian
November 19, 2018 at 9:37pm
Thank you for this excellent post. I am also a non-traditional applicant. I was wondering if you had any insight on the bachelor’s degree requirement for law schools? I graduated from an accelerated US program with a doctorate but unfortunately, skipped out on getting that bachelor’s degree. Will law schools (aiming for Top25) be willing accept the doctorate instead of the traditional bachelor’s degree? Thank you in advance.

Kate Dolan
February 24, 2019 at 1:03am
Several times throughout my life/career I’ve considered a law degree. “Life” or my priorities (family, children, career as a single Mom,etc.) I dismissed it .. but it continues to come back to me .. beckoning me. I see remarks (not to diminish) of “old” .. in your 30s… I just turned 61 but I’m not done yet ! All of the comments and remarks are both thought-provoking and inspiring. Best to all of you (us) !

Comments

Tom Thomsen says
May 6, 2021 at 4:48 pm
Kate Dolan et al,
I say go for it! I am 57 and will be attending Washburn Law this fall. I have also wanted to become an attorney for many years after watching my best friend graduate SMU Law and go on to a highly successful, rewarding career. I highly recommend the PowerScore Bibles and workbooks. I spent a solid 8 weeks studying, on average, 4 hours a day, and took multiple practice exams. My undergraduate GPA wasn’t that great but I did well enough on the LSAT to get a full tuition merit scholarship.
My daughters think it’s great we will all be in college at the same time, albeit different cities. It’s never too late to chase down your dreams and make them reality!
Reply
- Dave Killoran says
  May 12, 2021 at 7:06 pm
  Congrats Tom, go knock ’em dead in law school!
  Reply